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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 12-04-2014, 09:50 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Key fob question- a different twist-STILL seeking answer!! Q?

My 2002 triangular key fob "guts" are shot. Does not matter why, after new battery the transmitter portion is now shot. However, since splitting my case, half with good key still s/b useable. Question is whether another similar triangular Fob with good transmitter but obviously a differ key be bought, cut open, and with its transponder be re-mated with my shell that holds my good key? Does transponder need to be coded at factory for my security system (EWS)? Would like to use someone else's transmitter with my good key. I can unsolder my transponder chip and replace my transponder chip onto the donor transmitter, but will this combo then initialize? I believe my old transmitter board is beyond help, but transponder chip is unscathed. Can I make another good remote fob in any way, shape, or form mate with my key in the other half of shell?

Last edited by 540iman; 12-05-2014 at 09:41 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:05 AM
edjack edjack is offline
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The RFID chip may be damaged. If so, this will inhibit cranking. Note that no internal power is required for the car to read the chip.

It may be possible to reprogram the remote entry function of the new guts to your car. However, if the RFID chip is bad, your efforts will be for naught.
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  #3  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:02 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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ED, I am missing something here. Say my chip is bad. Are most of these transmitter boards from like transmitters equal and could be initialized with my good key? I am at a loss as to why key at first unlocked and started car, but now will not even let it crank. I need to know whether a donor fob like mine can be split and my key used with another transmitter to regain full key fob use? What would make my key not start car. How did I lose linking to EWS??
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  #4  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:03 AM
Anthony540 Anthony540 is offline
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check with this guy.
He does repair on BMW keys too. He's very nice. He'll answer your question even if you don't use his service. I know him personally.
http://www.bmwgm5.com
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  #5  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:05 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edjack View Post
The RFID chip may be damaged. If so, this will inhibit cranking. Note that no internal power is required for the car to read the chip.

It may be possible to reprogram the remote entry function of the new guts to your car. However, if the RFID chip is bad, your efforts will be for naught.
Are you saying RFID chip would be bad in new donor FOB or my fob RFID. Would I need to swap a component from my bad fob into the donor fob? Otherwise, I don't understand reference to new donor fob having a bad RFID chip? More specifics please Ed,. My Man!

Great info Anthony of FOB repair. Are there hundreds (thousands) of different Triangular key fob transmitters such that one must find the right fob guts to work with your good key and your general module? My key is good and fresh. My fob internals are Dead. Would like to buy one of the many triangular fobs with a key which will be useless to me, but if the transmitter is good, I would mate my key fob half with someone elses good fob transmitter guts and then would I be able to initialize or are the fob transmitter guts very different by car (limited number of transmitters that will link with my car through initialization. My key will unlock my car, but even stopped it from cranking when turned to position three. It does not set a code.

Last edited by 540iman; 12-04-2014 at 02:20 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:33 PM
Anthony540 Anthony540 is offline
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Give Scott a call. He can answer any questions about the keyfob. Very smart guy. He replaced the RAM chips on my DSP amp.
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  #7  
Old 12-04-2014, 02:49 PM
edjack edjack is offline
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The master key has two separate and unrelated functions: First is to transmit a lock/unlock signal, which is received by the antenna in the rear backlight. This function requires battery power. Any new key can be set to be recognized by the remote lock/unlock system.

Second, the masters, as well as the valet and emergency keys, all have a radio frequency identification chip, much like that which your vet implants into your pet. This chip is separate from the other key function, and requires no power. This chip is programmed at the factory to be mated to the EWS, or anti-theft system. The car reads this chip when the ignition is activated. If the code does not match, the starter will not function.

I have no idea what your failure is.
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  #8  
Old 12-05-2014, 08:34 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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where's q-man???

Some great thoughts, but trying to steer back to original question. Will my recently fully-working triangular 2002 540 key fob with dead internal guts even after battery replace be replaced if I buy one of the many full remote key fobs on Ebay with a key already cut that will not fit my car of course be able to donate their FOB internals and mate with the half shell of my original with my good key and initialize and will transponder be able to link to my key and EWS? I damaged the fob internals somehow and now the good key will unlock doors, fit in ignition and turn all the way to crank, but no crank! Maybe it is because fob guts and transponder are on seat next to me and I am only trying the key alone. Question is: will any triangular 3 key fob internals mate with the other half of key shell that has my good key still in it and be able to be initialized. are the transponders only ably to be coded to a limited number of EWS systems? If not, I will want to send out FOB guts to guy who swears he can absolutely repair. I then want to install all into a Mercedes-type flip key holder. Q-silver? Others?
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  #9  
Old 12-05-2014, 11:58 AM
Anthony540 Anthony540 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
Some great thoughts, but trying to steer back to original question. Will my recently fully-working triangular 2002 540 key fob with dead internal guts even after battery replace be replaced if I buy one of the many full remote key fobs on Ebay with a key already cut that will not fit my car of course be able to donate their FOB internals and mate with the half shell of my original with my good key and initialize and will transponder be able to link to my key and EWS? I damaged the fob internals somehow and now the good key will unlock doors, fit in ignition and turn all the way to crank, but no crank! Maybe it is because fob guts and transponder are on seat next to me and I am only trying the key alone. Question is: will any triangular 3 key fob internals mate with the other half of key shell that has my good key still in it and be able to be initialized. are the transponders only ably to be coded to a limited number of EWS systems? If not, I will want to send out FOB guts to guy who swears he can absolutely repair. I then want to install all into a Mercedes-type flip key holder. Q-silver? Others?
You really need to call him. He can answer those questions for you.
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2014, 04:26 AM
pudl pudl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iman View Post
My 2002 triangular key fob "guts" are shot. Does not matter why, after new battery the transmitter portion is now shot. However, since splitting my case, half with good key still s/b useable. Question is whether another similar triangular Fob with good transmitter but obviously a differ key be bought, cut open, and with its transponder be re-mated with my shell that holds my good key? Does transponder need to be coded at factory for my security system (EWS)? Would like to use someone else's transmitter with my good key. I can unsolder my transponder chip and replace my transponder chip onto the donor transmitter, but will this combo then initialize? I believe my old transmitter board is beyond help, but transponder chip is unscathed. Can I make another good remote fob in any way, shape, or form mate with my key in the other half of shell?
Which language is this?

Transplant 8-legged chip marked with number 1 in image T66 99 007 from the old board to the donor board.

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  #11  
Old 12-06-2014, 11:39 AM
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QSilver7 QSilver7 is offline
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've been given some great info in thepost above...now...just try not to mix (conflate) the operation of the 3 distinct systems in the key.

The remote key contains EWS (immobilizer), FZV (central locking), and DWA (anti-theft alarm siren) systems. EWS works totally independent of the other 2 systems in the key and is self-powered. EWS is powered thru induction by a 125 KHz AM signal that is sent from the EWS control module to the ring antenna around the ignition...which then powers the chip inside the key that has been burnt with a UNIQUE ISN (individual serial number) that only works with the car it was assigned to as it came off the assembly line. That chip (transponder) sends that data back to the EWS control module which also shares the ISN data with the DME/ECU which then allows ignition/starter & fuel to allow the car to start. Without the correct chip with the same ISN as the other EWS components...the car won't start.

The FZV & DWA features of the key transmit a 315 MHz (or 433 MHz in Europe) signal to the aerial in the rear winshield' which then goes to the receiver in the C pillar, which then sends data to the GM...from their...if the key code that was learned by the GM matches, (FZV) remote central locking will lock/unlock the doors....and (DWA) anti-theft alarm siren system will arm/disarm the siren. Both of these features are powered by the battery inside the key...AND any key from the same generation BMW (e46/e38/e39/e53) can be programmed to lock/unlock & arm/disarm ANY BMW of the same generation if the key initializing procedure is performed. Of course,one needs a working key (one with a key blade cut to fit the ignition) to get the GM into the initializing function where it can retrieve and assign the key's code...which it accepts or rejects when the 315 MHz signal is transmitted when the remote buttons are pressed.

Conclusion...yes any e46/e38/e39/e53 key can be programmed to lock/unlock & arm/disarm your car (old dyle or new style key). But do remember, the new style keys have internal batteries that are charged while in the ignition....if you program another BMW's remote key to your car...how do youkeep the battery charged?

The EWS transponder chip is unique and only works with the the BMW it was originally assigned to. There are aftermarket burners (I beleive an AK90) that can burn a new chip...but you will need software/hardware to retrieve the ISN and rolling code table...so tht it can be burned into the new chip. Or if you are good with electronics and can remove the chip and place it into a new key...good luck.

Someone mentioned contacting Scott (GM5???)...I second that. He has been fixing BMW keys for a while now...and has a Wall of Shame in his website that shows how owners...in an attempt to replace the battery in the new style keys...have ended up destroyingthe key by cutting relays and other stuff off the circuit bard...or cuttng the traces or antenna as they split the key open.
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2006 E53 X5 4.4i (Sterling Gray) 12/05 mfg date <<~>> 97 740iL (Arctic Silver) 3/97 mfg date
(SOLD)
99 540iT (Orient Blue) <<~>> 95 525IT (Alpine White)
91 735iL (Schwarz Black) <<~>> 85 325e (Bronzit)

http://imageshack.com/scaled/grid240/822/e38e532ndsigpic.jpg
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  #12  
Old 12-06-2014, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QSilver7 View Post
Someone mentioned contacting Scott (GM5???)...I second that. He has been fixing BMW keys for a while now...and has a Wall of Shame in his website that shows how owners...in an attempt to replace the battery in the new style keys...have ended up destroyingthe key by cutting relays and other stuff off the circuit bard...or cuttng the traces or antenna as they split the key open.
Send him your key and a check for $50 and all of your troubles will (probably) go away. I sent him both of mine and they work perfectly. However, as of yesterday, my car does not.
Edit: he charges more if your key has been opened.
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  #13  
Old 12-08-2014, 06:32 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QSilver7 View Post
've been given some great info in thepost above...now...just try not to mix (conflate) the operation of the 3 distinct systems in the key.

The remote key contains EWS (immobilizer), FZV (central locking), and DWA (anti-theft alarm siren) systems. EWS works totally independent of the other 2 systems in the key and is self-powered. EWS is powered thru induction by a 125 KHz AM signal that is sent from the EWS control module to the ring antenna around the ignition...which then powers the chip inside the key that has been burnt with a UNIQUE ISN (individual serial number) that only works with the car it was assigned to as it came off the assembly line. That chip (transponder) sends that data back to the EWS control module which also shares the ISN data with the DME/ECU which then allows ignition/starter & fuel to allow the car to start. Without the correct chip with the same ISN as the other EWS components...the car won't start.

The FZV & DWA features of the key transmit a 315 MHz (or 433 MHz in Europe) signal to the aerial in the rear winshield' which then goes to the receiver in the C pillar, which then sends data to the GM...from their...if the key code that was learned by the GM matches, (FZV) remote central locking will lock/unlock the doors....and (DWA) anti-theft alarm siren system will arm/disarm the siren. Both of these features are powered by the battery inside the key...AND any key from the same generation BMW (e46/e38/e39/e53) can be programmed to lock/unlock & arm/disarm ANY BMW of the same generation if the key initializing procedure is performed. Of course,one needs a working key (one with a key blade cut to fit the ignition) to get the GM into the initializing function where it can retrieve and assign the key's code...which it accepts or rejects when the 315 MHz signal is transmitted when the remote buttons are pressed.

Conclusion...yes any e46/e38/e39/e53 key can be programmed to lock/unlock & arm/disarm your car (old dyle or new style key). But do remember, the new style keys have internal batteries that are charged while in the ignition....if you program another BMW's remote key to your car...how do youkeep the battery charged?

The EWS transponder chip is unique and only works with the the BMW it was originally assigned to. There are aftermarket burners (I beleive an AK90) that can burn a new chip...but you will need software/hardware to retrieve the ISN and rolling code table...so tht it can be burned into the new chip. Or if you are good with electronics and can remove the chip and place it into a new key...good luck.

Someone mentioned contacting Scott (GM5???)...I second that. He has been fixing BMW keys for a while now...and has a Wall of Shame in his website that shows how owners...in an attempt to replace the battery in the new style keys...have ended up destroyingthe key by cutting relays and other stuff off the circuit bard...or cuttng the traces or antenna as they split the key open.
I sent my key to Scott. I just wondered if I bought a diamond FOb like mine with a key off
E-play and cut the case in half like any other battery removal process. If battery was good,
could I just unsolder the purchased FOBs 8 pin transponder chip, transfer my 8 pin chip onto their board and then glue the half of the FOB with MY KEY to their half with circuit board now containing my transponder chip and initialize it? I would think Q that it would charge
in my ignition just like the FOB did originally, no? This all assumes the key will initialize as it reads my transponder and all other functional that use the battery power should be fine including the charge circuit.

What am I missing here Q-Man?
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  #14  
Old 12-08-2014, 06:50 AM
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QSilver7 QSilver7 is offline
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There is no driveway "initializing" of the EWS "transponder" to start your car. Your key and any other e46/e38/e39/e53 remote key can be initialized to lock/unlock & arm/disarm your vehicle...this is FZV & DWA...which has NOTHING to do with EWS and the ability to start the car.

And yes...the scenario you mention should work...as long as nothing happens to the transponder as you desolder it from the original circuit board and resolder it to the replacement circuit board. Again, The EWS chip will not need any reinitializing because it is already burned with the ISN...and when the EWS control module sends it signal to power the transponder...it should respond with the same ISN...which will then release the car for starting.

The FZV/DWA features are the only ones that will need to be reprogrammed because the GM will not have the new key's (its circuit board) code...that will need to be learned along with any other remote keys you have. Any remote key not present during the programming will no longer lock/unlock & arm/disarm (FZV/DWA) the car because the old key code information will be erased and replaced during the programming session.

I hope this makes sense.
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Q {BMW CCA Member #191509}
2006 E53 X5 4.4i (Sterling Gray) 12/05 mfg date <<~>> 97 740iL (Arctic Silver) 3/97 mfg date
(SOLD)
99 540iT (Orient Blue) <<~>> 95 525IT (Alpine White)
91 735iL (Schwarz Black) <<~>> 85 325e (Bronzit)

http://imageshack.com/scaled/grid240/822/e38e532ndsigpic.jpg

Last edited by QSilver7; 12-08-2014 at 06:54 AM.
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  #15  
Old 12-08-2014, 07:06 AM
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AnotherGeezer AnotherGeezer is offline
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I'd buy a new key and be done with it.
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  #16  
Old 12-08-2014, 08:54 AM
mda185 mda185 is online now
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I'd buy a new key and be done with it.
The only problem with that is lousy dealers that charge way more than list price for new keys like the 2 closest to me in NJ. Scott's repair service sounds like a bargain for folks in my situation. I bought one key from local dealer when I did not know there were other options. Never again.
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:37 AM
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540iman 540iman is offline
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To be very clear, Scott is receiving my key any day now. *if* and only *if* the circuit board of an "in ignition rechargeable key" were to get the internal circuit board damaged let's say beyond repair, but transponder 8 pin chip were deemed still good, my question was could another donor circuit board be used from a similar "re-charge in ignition" key circuit board work if it has my existing transponder soldered into it and I read "yes" Thanks to all- esp. the Q-Man. Hope Scott can fix! I could not find my "solder sucker" so I was using braided copper wick which is used to pull solder off a connection, but it lifted donut-shaped pad that positive battery terminal solders to completely off board. Plus, my circuit board did not have two components shown in Blue Bees Picture ever. I did not mess with them. I asked Scott if he had ever seen a good circuit board w/o these to surface mount components and he said he had not, so I figured I better let him look at it. My board did not even have holes for these missing components.

Bill
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