09 vs 12 X5

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX

I buy all my BMW's at Garlyn Shelton BMW in Bryan, TX. It's about 90 miles from Houston, but absolutely worth the drive. I would avoid Houston dealers like the plague, although more recently I've heard some good things from BMW of The Woodlands. You might just try calling there, asking for the GSM and telling him the deal you want. Just be very open - tell him you know the market value on the car, you're active on Bimmerfest and that you're looking for $1000 over BMWConfig.com Invoice Price before rebates. Be sure to give numbers so you don't get stuck eating MACO and other BS fees. Also make sure there is no mark-up on the MF and Acq Fee (if leasing).

If you contact Garlyn Shelton, talk to Pat Boyd or Michael Hochmann, both nice guys. You can also deal directly with Rusty Chandler, he's a GSM over there. Any of them will treat you right. Tell them I sent you - I just picked up an X5 35d there last month

If you're leasing, ask about Sales Tax credits. With me, they couldn't get to $500 over invoice before rebates (I was at about $1500) but they waived all the sales tax on the car, which was actually a better deal for me in the end anyway. Note, the credits are only for leases not purchases.

Alternatively, contact a forum sponsor like Jon Shafer, Greg Poland or Dencoop, and see what they will charge. I can't imagine it would cost more than $500 to transport the car to your home in Houston, so if you can work a $500 over invoice deal, you may still come out ahead. I heard Dencoop was doing deals at $250 over invoice a few weeks ago. You could also consider PDC delivery.

Matt, next time you can try Obryan Mullins in Momentum BMW on 59S. Just mention my screen name, he will give the deal $500 above invoice. He is the only person I recommend in Houston. You do have to pay Maco+ training on top of that. I bought my car from him, and I paid him more than $500 above invoice because I wanted to build a good relationship. Now, I get parts/accessories 30% off all the time, this is better than CCA discount.

So called several dealers in Chicagoland area and deal is consistant. About 500 over invoice then an additional 1000 on financing. Gonna trade in my.... go ahead and laugh... 1999 Isuzu Rodeo with 150k plus miles. A bit of a step up. I figure it's about time for an upgrade. Going with the 35i premium platinum grey with black interior, running boards, convenience and cold weather package. Likely sealing deal tomorrow.

Sure am gonna miss my sweet red rodeo.

Originally Posted by bimmer335is

Matt, next time you can try Obryan Mullins in Momentum BMW on 59S. Just mention my screen name, he will give the deal $500 above invoice. He is the only person I recommend in Houston. You do have to pay Maco+ training on top of that. I bought my car from him, and I paid him more than $500 above invoice because I wanted to build a good relationship. Now, I get parts/accessories 30% off all the time, this is better than CCA discount.

Bimmer,

Thanks for the info... How much is MACO & Training here - I have never paid it? Also, did you get the $500 over invoice deal BEFORE rebates? I ended up being several thousand UNDER invoice after rebates and tax credits at Garlyn Shelton.

Originally Posted by Matt_UKTX

Bimmer,

Thanks for the info... How much is MACO & Training here - I have never paid it? Also, did you get the $500 over invoice deal BEFORE rebates? I ended up being several thousand UNDER invoice after rebates and tax credits at Garlyn Shelton.

It is definitely BEFORE rebates. I am sure you know the difference between dealer invoice and whole sale invoice. The reason you have to pay Maco and training fee because whole sale invoice does not include them. If I remembered correct, Maco is ~380 and training is ~180 in Houston. To my knowledge, there is no way you can avoid these fees unless you are doing ED. I am pretty sure Jon/Greg site sponsors mentioned these before. I can ask Obryan when I see him next time to find out exact Maco and training fee in Houston. Finally, the market in Houston is strong. If you know who to deal with, you can get a very good deal. If you don't do the homework and just walk in the dealer with a load of cash, expect to see $2000 above dealer invoice before rebates.

Originally Posted by bimmer335is

It is definitely BEFORE rebates. I am sure you know the difference between dealer invoice and whole sale invoice. The reason you have to pay Maco and training fee because whole sale invoice does not include them. If I remembered correct, Maco is ~380 and training is ~180 in Houston. To my knowledge, there is no way you can avoid these fees unless you are doing ED. I am pretty sure Jon/Greg site sponsors mentioned these before. I can ask Obryan when I see him next time to find out exact Maco and training fee in Houston. Finally, the market in Houston is strong. If you know who to deal with, you can get a very good deal. If you don't do the homework and just walk in the dealer with a load of cash, expect to see $2000 above dealer invoice before rebates.

Thanks for the info. This is basically the same deal I get at Garlyn Shelton when factoring in the MACO and Training. I'm usually at about $1000 over bmwconfig.com invoice there, but I never pay Sales Taxes on my leases due to Sales Tax credits from BMW FS that they can pass on. This usually saves me an additional $1500 to $3000+. You might want to ask Obryan about Sales Tax credits next time you see him (note this is only on leases). If he offers those, then I'll definitely consider going there next time I'm in the market. Otherwise, I'll stick with Garlyn Shelton. They have been very good to me, and I like their small-town demeanor. The 90 mile drive is actually really nice coming home in a new car

Bimmer335is, maybe I should get you to call OBryan for me as that's who I'm dealing with and while I think he's doing better than the other Houston dealers, I'm basically at $2k over invoice, and that's after taking out the extra $650 for having to go pick up the car on the East Coast. I'm also not crazy about the money factor on the lease (.00245) as I think that's too high. I'm also looking at the Owners Choice as I understand that in Texas it offer the exact same feature of drop off and pay the $350 fee at the end of the 3 years if you don't want to trade into another BMW. The rate is a bit better than leasing and works out to a lower payment. I read a good bit last night and realized it is only offered in a couple of states with the terms consistent with a lease but I've not read the contract yet. Anyone regret having done OC?

Originally Posted by heightsq5

Bimmer335is, maybe I should get you to call OBryan for me as that's who I'm dealing with and while I think he's doing better than the other Houston dealers, I'm basically at $2k over invoice, and that's after taking out the extra $650 for having to go pick up the car on the East Coast. I'm also not crazy about the money factor on the lease (.00245) as I think that's too high. I'm also looking at the Owners Choice as I understand that in Texas it offer the exact same feature of drop off and pay the $350 fee at the end of the 3 years if you don't want to trade into another BMW. The rate is a bit better than leasing and works out to a lower payment. I read a good bit last night and realized it is only offered in a couple of states with the terms consistent with a lease but I've not read the contract yet. Anyone regret having done OC?

heightssq5, seems like you're making some bad choices or getting some bad info...

1) Why are you paying $650 to get a vehicle from the east coast? I thought they had one in stock that you liked? If they don't have it there, don't pay the dealer to have it shipped. Just order one as many folks here will tell you. Wasting $650 is not the way to go IMO.

2) I would NEVER pay over buy rate (0.00195) for MF. 0.00245 is a rip off, plain and simple. This is why I don't like Momentum - too many back-end/back door fees. Make sure they are also not pulling other tricks, like marking up the Acq Fee by $200. It should be $725, not $925.

3) I would never do an Owners Choice. Leasing is the way to go in Texas as there are no personal property taxes on leases here. The payment on a lease is lower than OC, so I'm not sure why you think it's higher. The $350 disposition fee is waived at the end of the lease if you get into another BMW, and if not, you can always trade the car in and avoid the fee. Of the 4 BMW's I've owned, I've only ever turned one in. The rest were traded.

Not making bad choices at all, as I've not pulled the trigger on anything yet. I've bought a rather large number of cars in my time and am rather familiar with all the tricks. I know the buy rate is .00195 and for Momentum the reason OC gets a lower payment is because the effective rate on the lease they are offering is 5.88% versus a quoted 5.75% on OC.

The reason for the shipping is because I want one with premium sound, not a 3rd row seat and I want to take advantage of the rebates offered until the end of December, which rules out ordering. They found two that would fit my requirements already on the ground, just not in Texas. I'm not paying the $650 but of course they've baked that into the deal and actually said they'd reduce the deal by that amount if they were using one found closer or if I ordered.

However, I am curious why you say you'd never do an Owners Choice. My understanding is that in Texas, the way the program works it mimics a lease exactly except GAP is not baked in and the car is titled in your name versus the leasing company. But the ability to turn it in and walk away or to trade is the same. Now, I've not yet read all the fine print so I'm still not confident there is no "catch" to it.

In any case, if they don't tighten up the deal I'm not doing it. And while I don't like Momentum, I do think OBryan is a decent guy. With all the dealers in Houston, you'd think they would have to work better and harder to compete rather than us having to go to other cities to find better deals and customer service. I'm also surprised that I'd have to chase Pat at Garlyn Shelton rather than him being proactive and following up since Bryan is a much smaller market. But they don't have any cars on the lot either.

Originally Posted by heightsq5

Not making bad choices at all, as I've not pulled the trigger on anything yet. I've bought a rather large number of cars in my time and am rather familiar with all the tricks. I know the buy rate is .00195 and for Momentum the reason OC gets a lower payment is because the effective rate on the lease they are offering is 5.88% versus a quoted 5.75% on OC.

The reason for the shipping is because I want one with premium sound, not a 3rd row seat and I want to take advantage of the rebates offered until the end of December, which rules out ordering. They found two that would fit my requirements already on the ground, just not in Texas. I'm not paying the $650 but of course they've baked that into the deal and actually said they'd reduce the deal by that amount if they were using one found closer or if I ordered.

However, I am curious why you say you'd never do an Owners Choice. My understanding is that in Texas, the way the program works it mimics a lease exactly except GAP is not baked in and the car is titled in your name versus the leasing company. But the ability to turn it in and walk away or to trade is the same. Now, I've not yet read all the fine print so I'm still not confident there is no "catch" to it.

In any case, if they don't tighten up the deal I'm not doing it. And while I don't like Momentum, I do think OBryan is a decent guy. With all the dealers in Houston, you'd think they would have to work better and harder to compete rather than us having to go to other cities to find better deals and customer service. I'm also surprised that I'd have to chase Pat at Garlyn Shelton rather than him being proactive and following up since Bryan is a much smaller market. But they don't have any cars on the lot either.

My apologies... Didn't mean to imply you don't know what you are doing. Just worried that you were getting bad info and may be talked into making a bad decision...

Provided you order by year end, I believe all the incentives are "lockable" apart from Owner Loyalty, which I expect will carry into 2012 anyway. Have you been told specifically that they are not lockable? Pat locked all the incentives for me when I ordered my X5.

Based on the rate you were quoted, I can see why the OC would seem cheaper, however, the correct rate for the lease is 4.68%. As I said, I'd only pay buy rate, so I wouldn't even consider their inflated money factor as an option. The reason I said I would never do OC is because the payments are higher - that's it. I also wouldn't do it because Garlyn Shelton gives me Sales Tax Credits, and these can only be used on leases - not financing. I haven't read the small print either, but I know leasing, and I'm comfortable with it. If GAP isn't baked in, you would need to add this on your insurance too (probably less than $200 a year).

I agree with your comments on Houston dealers. You would think they would do better in such a big market, but sadly they don't. I guess there are enough people out there that don't do research and get $2000 off MSRP thinking they got a good deal.

As for Garlyn Shelton, they are a low volume dealer in a small town. They aren't lazy, just laid back. Right, wrong or indifferent, you will have to chase Pat to get him to be responsive, but the end result will be worth it in terms of the price you get. I don't mind doing the chasing provided that I'm dealing with someone who is nice and has integrity (and can get me the price I want). You can also try Michael if Pat's not working out for you. Also remember they are a multi-franchise dealer - they have Hyundai, Mazda and VW there also, so these guys are pulled in many different directions. It could be that Pat is swamped helping out the VW guys due to the sign-and-drive event that they currently have going on. They do help each other across the different brands as needed.

If you're comfortable with Obyran, why not just tell him about our discussions here, and that you'd like the $500 over invoice deal that Bimmer mentioned. If you get Invoice + $500 + MACO + Training and they ship for free, that wouldn't be too bad...

Matt_UKTX, I sent you a PM when you have a moment to read.

Thanks,

heightsq5, I agree 2k over invoice is high. However, I do think you need to pay shipping fee if the car is at another state.
The best price for you would be 500+maco+training+650 (a little high too, 550 is average shipping cost). Honestly, if you really want the car, I would throw in another 200 on top of the best price, I am sure Obryan can do it.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, I did not pay 500 above invoice, I gave 750 because he is a cool guy, he is the best CA you can find in Houston. If I do everything again, I will still pay 750 above invoice. how important $250 is for a 55k car in long term? I am sure you can tell. I will send Obryan a note tomorrow and try to see if he can do 500 above invoice. If not, you have to go with Matt's suggestion or throw in another 200 bucks. Good luck, I wish you get the car by 12/31 with the best price.

Did Obryan give you MF. 0.00245? Does not sound like him at all.

He said Finance would not go below .00245, so for me a lease is off the table at that rate. When factoring out the transport, we're at about 1,200 or so over invoice before rebates. Likely one thing working against me a bit at this point is that they had for delivery about 3 or 4 X5's in the two days I've gone by there. I agree Obryan is a good guy and seems like someone I'd go back and use again but we've not done a deal yet so I'll reserve final judgement. What's hurting me a bit is wanting premium sound and in only a couple of colors, which means going to get one from another dealer. I could order and wait but I prefer to base my decision on known financial terms, particularly the incentives and rebates that are applicable now, and if ordered, I could be losing the finance rebate for December and who knows about the nav rebate. In any case, I'm not sure I'd order much differently that the one we've found. Just hope that I don't get tired of the cinnamon interior. I like it now and seems richer looking that plain black and I have a 4 year old, so I steer clear of really light seats and carpets.

Again, I sure appreciate everyone's comments and hope you all have a good Christmas.

I would first go back and look at those numbers, 40k for a 2009 3.0 seems a little high, also do so more research you could probably get more off the selling price off the '12. Also consider a diesel, they are really quick and will give you the extra tax credit. With research, I think you will ultimately find out that either a 35i or 35d is going to be better, also the changes from 2009 to 2012 are substantial enough to justify going new vs used. Good luck!

I talked to obryan this morning. He told me you guys agreed with the deal. Congrates, you made a fair deal, u spent extra 200, but locked in OL incentives. Merry xmas!

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Bimmer

I did not have the time to read every post, so apologies if some of this has been covered. We've had a 2007, 2008 and now a 2011, so the following is objective.

1. The 2012 not only has the more powerful, turbocharged motor, but the sweet 8 speed transmission. Result is more power AND better mpg.
2. You can be fairly certain the 2012 does not have a "story": accident, vandalism, etc. With the 2009 you never really know (Carfax has its limits).
3. 2012 has brand new tires; the 2009 likely does not. These are expensive items to replace.
4. 2012 has 4 years of free maintenance. You can get an extended WARRANTY on the 2009, but unless the original owner purchased the extended MAINTENANCE plan, you're going to pay for a 60,000 mile service, probably an oil change or two as well.
5. Sounds like you are purchasing instead of leasing. So factor resale value into your calculations. The 2012 will be worth a lot more when you are ready to move on.
6. I forget whether the LCI (refresh) was in 2009 or 2010. But the 2009 likely has different interior and exterior styling than the 2012.
7. The 2012 has the latest electronics - iDrive display, Nav maps, etc. Probably most significantly, it has the HD based nav and the ability to store MP3's on the HD. You can also get BMW Apps, which was not available till midway through the 2011 model year.

In short, I would take a long hard look at the 2012.

Just turned my 2009 in last night for a 2012 Premium. Had no problems with the 2009, but the engine is much better in the 2012.

Originally Posted by heightsq5

He said Finance would not go below .00245, so for me a lease is off the table at that rate. When factoring out the transport, we're at about 1,200 or so over invoice before rebates. Likely one thing working against me a bit at this point is that they had for delivery about 3 or 4 X5's in the two days I've gone by there. I agree Obryan is a good guy and seems like someone I'd go back and use again but we've not done a deal yet so I'll reserve final judgement. What's hurting me a bit is wanting premium sound and in only a couple of colors, which means going to get one from another dealer. I could order and wait but I prefer to base my decision on known financial terms, particularly the incentives and rebates that are applicable now, and if ordered, I could be losing the finance rebate for December and who knows about the nav rebate. In any case, I'm not sure I'd order much differently that the one we've found. Just hope that I don't get tired of the cinnamon interior. I like it now and seems richer looking that plain black and I have a 4 year old, so I steer clear of really light seats and carpets.

Again, I sure appreciate everyone's comments and hope you all have a good Christmas.

PM sent...

Thanks all.. Went with the 2012 for a holiday gift for the family. Will post pics soon!

Originally Posted by heightsq5

Bimmer335is, maybe I should get you to call OBryan for me as that's who I'm dealing with and while I think he's doing better than the other Houston dealers, I'm basically at $2k over invoice, and that's after taking out the extra $650 for having to go pick up the car on the East Coast. I'm also not crazy about the money factor on the lease (.00245) as I think that's too high.

They are ripping you off. Go elsewhere.

Originally Posted by pony_trekker

they are ripping you off. Go elsewhere.

+1

I appreciate the input but to give an update, the deal on the table now works out to about $1,300 over dealer cost. The dealer in Byran was only about $200 cheaper but was much farther off on the trade in, which is something I do have to factor in. Momentum has been fairly aggressive on the trade, offering a strong number compared to all the others I've now checked and gotten pricing on (I have 3 other deals to compare now). I'm going from a 2009 Lexus LS460L so the trade is a fairly significant number. The only thing I'm not at all happy with is the lease rate, which I won't accept. So based on everything people are saying about their deals, this one seems a little more than others but is one I'm now comfortable with all things considered (trade being significant) and in fact probably not much worse than any other deal folks have gotten. Like I said, I don't like the financing rate on the lease so I may just not go that route, but as I've not taken delivery yet we'll have to see.

One thing I can say is that I've visited about 9 different high end dealers (M-B, Land Rover, BMW, Lexus) and sadly most of them felt like the stereo-typical car dealer. And the M-B dealers in Houston are worse than the BMW. Seems the key really is to find the salesman that you like and can work with and go from there.

There is no such thing as being "ripped off" by a dealer. Truth is, when both parties are happy the deal is good. I used to sell cars. Some went out the door at $3,000 over MSRP, while we gave others away below cost. In all cases, the buyers left with a smile — they were all "good deals."

Of course, some dealers are a bit more aggressive on price. However, you have to weigh the relationship with the dealer and if you are going to have the vehicle serviced there or not.

Keep in mind that any new BMW is a bad deal.

- Mike

Originally Posted by heightsq5

I appreciate the input but to give an update, the deal on the table now works out to about $1,300 over dealer cost. The dealer in Byran was only about $200 cheaper but was much farther off on the trade in, which is something I do have to factor in. Momentum has been fairly aggressive on the trade, offering a strong number compared to all the others I've now checked and gotten pricing on (I have 3 other deals to compare now). I'm going from a 2009 Lexus LS460L so the trade is a fairly significant number. The only thing I'm not at all happy with is the lease rate, which I won't accept. So based on everything people are saying about their deals, this one seems a little more than others but is one I'm now comfortable with all things considered (trade being significant) and in fact probably not much worse than any other deal folks have gotten. Like I said, I don't like the financing rate on the lease so I may just not go that route, but as I've not taken delivery yet we'll have to see.

One thing I can say is that I've visited about 9 different high end dealers (M-B, Land Rover, BMW, Lexus) and sadly most of them felt like the stereo-typical car dealer. And the M-B dealers in Houston are worse than the BMW. Seems the key really is to find the salesman that you like and can work with and go from there.

Have you contacted the other dealers and told them what Momentum is offering you for the trade? I would think one of them will match it. You can call them and open with something like this:

"Look, I have a deal on the table, which I'm thinking about taking, but I wanted to give you one last chance to earn my business. Basically the deal is the exact same thing you are offering me, but I'm getting $XXXX more for my Lexus. Can you go haggle with the Pre-owned Manager for me so we can get this done?"

Also, have you had your trade appraised at CarMax and Texas Direct Auto? They may offer you more than Momentum, at which point all this is moot. If you haven't already done this, I would do it ASAP before moving ahead with ANY dealer trade-in.

Give these two tactics a try and let us know how it goes. Good luck.

I did the Carmax thing early on and they were lower than any dealer. And lower by several thousand. The only other dealer I'd consider going back to based on all I've seen is Garlyn Shelton and I already ran the trade numbers by them and they couldn't meet the Momentum trade. and at this point I don't think Momentum is playing games with a high trade and getting me on the new one as they are now only a few hundred different than Garlyn Shelton for the exact same unit.

One thing I've done today is go back and drive again the ML 350 and the X5 back to back on the same route and while I'm not a fan of the overly heavy BMW steering effort, the X5 just seems like a better truck all in all. Even with the rougher ride.