SCCA Solo II call for sanity

Honestly, we all like to go fast, to have the best possible preparations for oour cars, but tires are out of control. After watching a friend's 04 Hoosiers cord after 24 runs (granted it was on a Stock class heavy car but still...) and reading some reports on the v710, I think the SCCA and the tire companies are running the risk of pricing competitive autocrossing out of existence.
In the case of my friend that was $1000 worth of tires for 2 events (one with a codriver). $500 per event..... I know top runners on the Tour will only use Hoosiers for less than 30 runs cording or no cording....

I'm sorry but that's insane and the popularity of ST classes just proves the general sentiment.

Please control tire costs SCCA

Originally Posted by AC

Honestly, we all like to go fast, to have the best possible preparations for oour cars, but tires are out of control. After watching a friend's 04 Hoosiers cord after 24 runs (granted it was on a Stock class heavy car but still...) and reading some reports on the v710, I think the SCCA and the tire companies are running the risk of pricing competitive autocrossing out of existence.
In the case of my friend that was $1000 worth of tires for 2 events (one with a codriver). $500 per event..... I know top runners on the Tour will only use Hoosiers for less than 30 runs cording or no cording....

I'm sorry but that's insane and the popularity of ST classes just proves the general sentiment.

Please control tire costs SCCA

I agree, but I don't know what the solution is.

I would also propose that a restriction for stock class shocks be imposed such that they carry a minimum of one external adjustment, with no provision for adjustable gas pressure.

Furthermore, top ST drivers who buy "street" tires for Topeka generally order them shaved and use them just for that event. Still pretty pricey.

the setup and air pressures are different on the S04's from the S03's, most likely these were the front tires and he had too little air pressure, he must have missed the indicator signs or read the scrub pattern incorrectly what car/class, wheel size, tire size, etc.?

I'm curious to know what limiting shocks to one adjustment, or even none, is going to accomplish? same for gas pressure?

The tires were 245/18 on an AS e46 m3. Pressures in the 50's .
The aligment was probably not the best since the car owner had just installed (IMHO) the wrong shocks which resulted in the car getting raised (advanced design). he ran one event stock one two driver event with the new set up.

But as I said the issue is larger than this specific instance.

the increased ride height from the monotube gas pressure cost him precious negative camber but an E46 M3 not setup and driven properly will understeer badly and chew up front tires particularly on an aggressive surface (you didn't state where this occured), that car on S04s needs upwards of 60 psig front pressure, a heavier front swaybar, and much more front rebound than on S03s

fwiw, the first set of S01's I ever ran on an e36 M3 only lasted me 9 runs before they corded the outer corners (3/96) too little pressure, heavily brushed concrete, and overdriven - hard lessons learned

As someone who shook his head a bit at all the stock-class stuff and switched to the F125 class, all I can say is...

come join us!

Originally Posted by TeamZ4

the increased ride height from the monotube gas pressure cost him precious negative camber but an E46 M3 not setup and driven properly will understeer badly and chew up front tires particularly on an aggressive surface (you didn't state where this occured), that car on S04s needs upwards of 60 psig front pressure, a heavier front swaybar, and much more front rebound than on S03s

fwiw, the first set of S01's I ever ran on an e36 M3 only lasted me 9 runs before they corded the outer corners (3/96) too little pressure, heavily brushed concrete, and overdriven - hard lessons learned

Yup the gas shock induced lack of camber was our prime suspect, but the car did have a GC front sway, adjusted fairly stiffly and was driven accordingly. thers was no obivious signs of roll on the tires, in fact when I fist saw them it looked to me like they had been rubbing on something! The wear in the offending spot was indeed on the outer shoulder but there was a 1/4 inch groove that showed the metal braid belt coming apart......very odd. Cleary though there could not have been rubbing, the darn thing looked like an SUV!

Speaking of Hoosier pressures though, and switching to my own ASP car with plenty of camber, where do I start pressure wise with the 04?
I have never used Hoos on my car but I'll be darned if I show up in DC with anything less than the best available tire! (hence my bitter feelings which lead me to start this thread!!! )

Originally Posted by TeamZ4

the setup and air pressures are different on the S04's from the S03's, most likely these were the front tires and he had too little air pressure, he must have missed the indicator signs or read the scrub pattern incorrectly what car/class, wheel size, tire size, etc.?

I'm curious to know what limiting shocks to one adjustment, or even none, is going to accomplish? same for gas pressure?

The original discussion pertained to limiting cost in stock class. Even a Koni DA is significantly more expensive than an SA to mere mortals like m'self...

In retrospect, maybe not the best idea given the fact that Koni is more than happy to revalve shocks/struts to your specs. People would still find a way to make it expensive.

Revalving Konis isn't that expensive. Since they're readily rebuildable, revalving doesn't cost a lot more.

this thread puts the nail in the coffin of me deciding not to Solo my M

Originally Posted by Mika

this thread puts the nail in the coffin of me deciding not to Solo my M

Should not, Victoracers are 1/3 less expensive to buy and could easily last you a whole season. We are arguing extremes to some extent here. And even so it's a bit of a pointless excersise in semantics

Originally Posted by AC

Should not, Victoracers are 1/3 less expensive to buy and could easily last you a whole season. We are arguing extremes to some extent here. And even so it's a bit of a pointless excersise in semantics

Should also mention that if you know someone with a Hoosier account they become significantly less expensive

I imagine the same is true with Victos. I am certain that the BimmerHaus folks have a Hoosier account for this reason. You don't realize how much Tire Rack marks up (you are paying for their excellent service, quick availability, cost of warehousing, etc).

Originally Posted by SoloII///M

Should also mention that if you know someone with a Hoosier account they become significantly less expensive

I imagine the same is true with Victos. I am certain that the BimmerHaus folks have a Hoosier account for this reason. You don't realize how much Tire Rack marks up (you are paying for their excellent service, quick availability, cost of warehousing, etc).

.... talk about a major bummer!

Originally Posted by AC

.... talk about a major bummer!

I didn't mean that to be sarcastic - I buy all my tires from Tire Rack because of the convenience and the service they have given me. Something about me waiting until the last second for everything...

But now that a coworker can get less than Kumho prices on Hoosier tires... Hmm....

Originally Posted by SoloII///M

I didn't mean that to be sarcastic - I buy all my tires from Tire Rack because of the convenience and the service they have given me. Something about me waiting until the last second for everything...

But now that a coworker can get less than Kumho prices on Hoosier tires... Hmm....

Actually checking, Tire Rack doesn't mark them up much, even account holders pay the same for hoosiers, while just about everything else is available cheaper.

well I just spoke to one of the owners of a Nationally competitive Stock Nissan 350Z today, this vehicle has a strut suspension with less camber than an M3 and is known to have understeer issues, they have approx. 60 runs on their S04's, no wear issues to report of

Originally Posted by TeamZ4

well I just spoke to one of the owners of a Nationally competitive Stock Nissan 350Z today, this vehicle has a strut suspension with less camber than an M3 and is known to have understeer issues, they have approx. 60 runs on their S04's, no wear issues to report of

The 350Z has double wishbone suspension all around, according to the 350Z brochure I have in front of me...

Originally Posted by Pinecone

Actually checking, Tire Rack doesn't mark them up much, even account holders pay the same for hoosiers, while just about everything else is available cheaper.

Hmm.. I assumed it was a tire rack markup. My buddy at work has a hoosier account and the quote I got was a ~ 20% discount compared to tire rack, before shipping. He gets them "at cost." So Tire rack is either getting charged more from Hoosier, or they are marking them up.

Yes the 350 has wishbones. This is taken from a G35 file (I was considering that car at one time... and it's based off the same FM chassis as the Z)

Front: Independent, forged-aluminum multi-link with coil springs over ripple-control shock absorbers, stabilizer bar.
Rear: Independent, forged-aluminum multi-link with coil springs, outboard ripple-control shock absorbers, stabilizer bar.

Originally Posted by SoloII///M

The 350Z has double wishbone suspension all around, according to the 350Z brochure I have in front of me...

yep, I misquoted that, it's a multi-link but different from an SLA double wishbone, bottom line is they have no camber adjustment, can't get more than a degree negative camber, tires wear to the outside faster (have to be flipped to get max life), and understeer is what holds the vehicle back in the class yet they are not having short life/cording issues so the point is you can't just wave the generalization wand and blame the S04 tires

I believe what you're referring to is that there are certain road racing series/classes where Hoosier drivers are provided tires at a discounted prices, but one of the quickest ways to get tossed out of that is to buy tires for buddies and brag about it publicly that is seriously frowned upon

Originally Posted by TeamZ4

I believe what you're referring to is that there are certain road racing series/classes where Hoosier drivers are provided tires at a discounted prices, but one of the quickest ways to get tossed out of that is to buy tires for buddies and brag about it publicly that is seriously frowned upon

You're correct about the 350Z front suspension's geometry being not ideal with regard to static camber and dynamic camber gain through bump. Perhaps you were thinking of FC RX-7s - they have geometry very similar to an E36.

The gent I know is a drag racer who has a Hoosier account to buy slicks for his team. To use his words, he gets them "at cost" and "can get R-comps without a problem." I did not ask him the details of his account; It's none of my business. He's the one who offered the deal to me over lunch when he found out I was an autocrosser.

He marks up tires $15 / ea for folks he doesn't know.

Knowing how he is, I don't think he would have offered to get them for me if it was going to put him at risk of losing the account.

must be a different program than the one I mentioned

is he taking orders

Originally Posted by TeamZ4

must be a different program than the one I mentioned

is he taking orders

I will take at least one set of 245/40-17 A3SO4s at -20% + $15. That would be, like $185 a tire, plus shipping. Maybe even two sets.

BTW I talked to Hoosier about the A3SO4 and one thing to remember, they are non-direction and symmetric. So you can not only rotate them all around the car, you can also flip them on the rims. They were saying more in the 50 - 60 run range at least, but too early to tell for sure. But they do require MORE pressure than the SO3 and many people ran the SO3s at too low of a pressure, for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Pinecone

BTW I talked to Hoosier about the A3SO4 and one thing to remember, they are non-direction and symmetric. So you can not only rotate them all around the car, you can also flip them on the rims.

In this vein, if your tire sizes are the same at all four corners should each tire be run at the same corner event after event, or should some type of rotation be used between events?

I personally would rotate them to distribute wear

I only wish I had that option but at least for me I use the same size tire at all 4 corners and the fronts wear to the outside and my rears wear to the inside. If I catch them at the right point to swap the front tires to the rear wheels and vice versa I get some serious life out of them. I had several sets of S03's last year that wore down completely to the point of being slicks; completely smooth with no grooves left, but no cording, about 70 - 80 total runs, that's about as good as it gets with Hoosier autox radials