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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #51  
Old 01-15-2012, 09:29 PM
BrooklynNY1015 BrooklynNY1015 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontrealBimmer View Post
the price difference is $5000 here in canada between the basic 328 and the 335. no big deal. my car cost me 51,000 before taxes and with the same options on the 335 the price tag was 57,000. no big deal in price if the 335 was a completely different ride i would buy it. but after driving both i didn't find it was worth the headaches.
ofcourse i also test drove a m3 and that is a completely different car. you can't even come close to comparing the m3 to a 335. it makes me laugh when people find their 335 is similar to the m3. The only reason i didn't opt for the m3 is strictly financial, but if i ever upgraded it would only be an m3. But like everyone who buys a 328 or a 335 especially coupes, the only reason they are not driving m3's is financial, all other excuses are bull****.
i know that is Canadian money, but I am still so sorry to hear that
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  #52  
Old 01-16-2012, 12:32 PM
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Wilassasin Wilassasin is offline
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The Techron is the same as the BMW cleaner so go with whichever is the cheapest.
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  #53  
Old 01-16-2012, 07:51 PM
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Blubaron79 Blubaron79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilassasin View Post
The Techron is the same as the BMW cleaner so go with whichever is the cheapest.
I realized that when I bought the BMW fuel cleaner. The bottle and everything is the same, just repackaged,

Question: Is running too much fuel cleaner through your engine a bad thing??
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  #54  
Old 01-16-2012, 09:03 PM
BimmerAWD BimmerAWD is offline
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To all that have given advice, thanks so much. Added a bottle of Techron and the hesitation/stumble is gone. I'll continue with your advice, Alpine, and use it for the next 2 or 3 fill ups then once monthly. Who knew such a small investment would help so much. Thanks again all.
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  #55  
Old 01-18-2012, 11:20 AM
BimmerAWD BimmerAWD is offline
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Just another update. Added second bottle of Techron in the tank today. No stumbles, no hesitations, car is running smooth as silk. If anyone else has problems similar to the ones stated in this thread, give this a try before driving yourself crazy at the dealership
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  #56  
Old 01-18-2012, 01:34 PM
Bimmer4life Bimmer4life is offline
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If you have the N55 engine, does what Alpine300 posted on post #7 with regard to using the fuel cleaner apply to N55 engine?
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  #57  
Old 01-18-2012, 01:44 PM
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Blubaron79 Blubaron79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer4life View Post
If you have the N55 engine, does what Alpine300 posted on post #7 with regard to using the fuel cleaner apply to N55 engine?
It should. Both engines have the same injection set up. N55 just has a single turbo with variable timing.
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  #58  
Old 01-19-2012, 08:44 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilassasin View Post
The Techron is the same as the BMW cleaner so go with whichever is the cheapest.
According to Mike Miller this is not quite true. Mike tells me that yes Techron makes BMW Fuel System Cleaner Plus, but the BMW branded one is of a stronger concentration than the Techron sold at an auto parts store. So that is the wrinkle..I have found the BMW branded stuff works and the auto parts store stuff works. Take from that what you will. Given the price spread is only 3 bucks a bottle I prefer to buy the BMW branded stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
I realized that when I bought the BMW fuel cleaner. The bottle and everything is the same, just repackaged,

Question: Is running too much fuel cleaner through your engine a bad thing??
See above. My favorite mechanic at my dealer told me that fuel cleaner cannot hurt and he cannot see how too much of it would be a problem unless I was putting it in literally every tankful. The 3-5k mile interval has worked well for me (once I completed the 4 tankful method I have already described) to keep the car running properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerAWD View Post
To all that have given advice, thanks so much. Added a bottle of Techron and the hesitation/stumble is gone. I'll continue with your advice, Alpine, and use it for the next 2 or 3 fill ups then once monthly. Who knew such a small investment would help so much. Thanks again all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerAWD View Post
Just another update. Added second bottle of Techron in the tank today. No stumbles, no hesitations, car is running smooth as silk. If anyone else has problems similar to the ones stated in this thread, give this a try before driving yourself crazy at the dealership
Wonderful. Hopefully more people who have the problem will see this thread and realize the solution is quite simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer4life View Post
If you have the N55 engine, does what Alpine300 posted on post #7 with regard to using the fuel cleaner apply to N55 engine?
Yes. I do my own recommendation on my new N55.
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Last edited by Alpine300ZHP; 01-19-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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  #59  
Old 01-19-2012, 08:49 AM
jertronic jertronic is offline
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I have read that an oil change is necessary immediately following the use of Techron. Can anyone comment on this? I just added the large size Techron to a 1/4 tank of gas. I would rather not change the oil in the near future. The last oil change was a mere 1,500 miles ago.
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  #60  
Old 01-20-2012, 09:48 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertronic View Post
I have read that an oil change is necessary immediately following the use of Techron. Can anyone comment on this? I just added the large size Techron to a 1/4 tank of gas. I would rather not change the oil in the near future. The last oil change was a mere 1,500 miles ago.
This is nonsense. Ignore whoever told you this.
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  #61  
Old 01-23-2012, 01:10 PM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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Final Assessment (What was fixed)

I finally got the service work order for the repair that worked on my BMW.

Here are the parts that were replaced.

2 spark plugs, then test drive, no change, still not fixed.

1 Tube, turbocharger, 11657556555, no change, still not fixed

2 O-Ring, 13717568030

2 Clamp, 11657558922

Fixed: The shop foreman found the O-Rings damaged. His assessment was that it must have happened during assembly since they don't move once put together and they are captive in a groove in the joint. The service manager asked BMW to goodwill it and they did. So the fix was at no cost.

All of the parts were in the CHARGED AIR INDUCTION TRACT. The bottom line on my symptoms is that at 2500-3000 rpm the engine vibrated at a frequency that allowed the joint to move and dump boost.

The only outstanding issue is the low pressure fuel pump. They replaced it and charged me for it and it wasn't broken. I am still trying to figure out whether to push the issue based on the goodwill repair. Maybe I will look for a partial credit on my next repair.

I am very glad that the car was fixed and I would like to thank the service manager (Jeff) and shop foreman (Gil) at Russel BMW in Baltimore. It was a difficult diagnosis and Jeff and Gil worked with me and listened to my concerns and ultimately fixed my car. Both are real professionals.

Not so much my initial service tech. He took shortcuts and ignored the symptoms I described and even said it was fixed based on a test drive when the symptoms were exactly the same as when I dropped it off.
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  #62  
Old 01-23-2012, 02:48 PM
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clspruiell clspruiell is offline
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This sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing with my 6MT! I posted about it a few days ago. I have used Chevron Techron several times and always use shell or cheveron 93 Octane.

I guess I should use the FI cleaner in the manor described in this post.

The only other thing that mine does different is I'm getting a little longer crank times.

But the hesitation/stumble/studder is very noticable and annoying.

I think i may try this although I cringe at driving in 4th on the interstate seeing my engine at such high rpms for so long. I hope I'm just overly sensitive to it.
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  #63  
Old 01-26-2012, 07:04 AM
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clspruiell clspruiell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
At the OP mileage I suspect that you guys have a combination of carbon buildup on the intake valves and some injector clogging. I have owned 3 N54 engines so I am somewhat of an armchair expert on this motor. I suggest you guys do the following:

1) Fill up with Shell 93 octane or Chevron 93 octane

2) Buy 4 bottles of BMW fuel system cleaner plus (just wait and let me finish)

3) At the first fill up do this: a) put a bottle of fuel system cleaner plus in before filling up the car b) warm up the engine at low RPM and speeds for 20 minutes c) take car onto the interstate and do 70 mph in 3rd gear making sure you are turning at least 4k RPM. d) Do the drive for 30 minutes and then shift to 6th and let the car cool down.

4) Two times a week for the next two-four weeks repeat number three making sure that you are running Shell or Chevron and using a bottle of fuel system cleaner in each tankful until all 4 bottles are gone.

I can almost guarantee your hesitation problems will be gone before or by the time all of the fuel system cleaner plus is used up. Once you have corrected the problem maintain the engine by doing my suggestion once a month. This is how I kept my N54's running good.....
I did this yesterday and it really seems to have helped! It's not perfect yet, but from what I can tell its much better. I hope this is a decently long term solution.

I would also like more information about the BMW additive being different/better than Chevron's Techron. My SA really didn't know if it was any different.

Is there any definitive evidence that BMW's cleaner is better?

Anyway thanks for the advice, I drove 80mph in 4th gear (right around 4k rpms) for 30 mins.
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  #64  
Old 01-26-2012, 04:18 PM
SAM67 SAM67 is offline
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I have a 2008 335i with 42,000 miles -- the HPFP and fuel injectors were replaced around 30k. Somewhere around 40k I started to experience the exact same symptoms that the OP described but on 5 different occasions over a 2 month period I also got the yellow check engine light with "limp" mode. Interestingly, the last three were while cruising at highway speed in 6th gear.

I took it to the dealer, described the symptoms and told them my best guess was carbon build-up. Called at the end of the day to say the car was ready. Based on the error code they replaced 2 hoses connected to the waste gate(s) because they were pinched and deemed "defective." Interesting that the OP's dealer also replaced a defective waste gate part, although not the same parts apparently. By the way, they did not see any evidence of carbon build up - not sure if they were blowing smoke or if they actually checked.

I can confirm that the car is running better but I still feel a very slight hesitation in the 2,500-3,000 range while accelerating in 5th or 6th gear. No yellow check engine lights or limp mode so far. I have run fuel treatment a couple times before the last dealer visit and noticed some modest improvement. I'll probably try it again soon with some high RPM runs for good measure. Hope this info helps.
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  #65  
Old 01-27-2012, 07:04 AM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM67 View Post
I have a 2008 335i with 42,000 miles -- the HPFP and fuel injectors were replaced around 30k. Somewhere around 40k I started to experience the exact same symptoms that the OP described but on 5 different occasions over a 2 month period I also got the yellow check engine light with "limp" mode. Interestingly, the last three were while cruising at highway speed in 6th gear.

I took it to the dealer, described the symptoms and told them my best guess was carbon build-up. Called at the end of the day to say the car was ready. Based on the error code they replaced 2 hoses connected to the waste gate(s) because they were pinched and deemed "defective." Interesting that the OP's dealer also replaced a defective waste gate part, although not the same parts apparently. By the way, they did not see any evidence of carbon build up - not sure if they were blowing smoke or if they actually checked.

I can confirm that the car is running better but I still feel a very slight hesitation in the 2,500-3,000 range while accelerating in 5th or 6th gear. No yellow check engine lights or limp mode so far. I have run fuel treatment a couple times before the last dealer visit and noticed some modest improvement. I'll probably try it again soon with some high RPM runs for good measure. Hope this info helps.
SAM67. It wasn't the wastegate parts that fixed my problem. It was the O-Rings and clamps that connect the charge air hose (the one going to the intercooler) from the front turbo output. I'm glad they were able to fix yours too. It was driving me crazy.
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  #66  
Old 01-27-2012, 09:55 AM
jertronic jertronic is offline
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I added a larger bottle of Techron last week. The naturally aspirated I-6 runs smoother now with more ummmph. Thanks for the Techron tip whoever suggested the brilliant and cheap idea.
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  #67  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:51 AM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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Final Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by jburke4689 View Post
I finally got the service work order for the repair that worked on my BMW.

Here are the parts that were replaced.

2 spark plugs, then test drive, no change, still not fixed.

1 Tube, turbocharger, 11657556555, no change, still not fixed

2 O-Ring, 13717568030

2 Clamp, 11657558922

Fixed: The shop foreman found the O-Rings damaged. His assessment was that it must have happened during assembly since they don't move once put together and they are captive in a groove in the joint. The service manager asked BMW to goodwill it and they did. So the fix was at no cost.

All of the parts were in the CHARGED AIR INDUCTION TRACT. The bottom line on my symptoms is that at 2500-3000 rpm the engine vibrated at a frequency that allowed the joint to move and dump boost.

The only outstanding issue is the low pressure fuel pump. They replaced it and charged me for it and it wasn't broken. I am still trying to figure out whether to push the issue based on the goodwill repair. Maybe I will look for a partial credit on my next repair.

I am very glad that the car was fixed and I would like to thank the service manager (Jeff) and shop foreman (Gil) at Russel BMW in Baltimore. It was a difficult diagnosis and Jeff and Gil worked with me and listened to my concerns and ultimately fixed my car. Both are real professionals.

Not so much my initial service tech. He took shortcuts and ignored the symptoms I described and even said it was fixed based on a test drive when the symptoms were exactly the same as when I dropped it off.
The dealer credited me the labor for the low pressure pump. I paid for the part. That is what I suggested and that is what they did. I am very happy. They will certainly retain me as a customer.
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  #68  
Old 01-31-2012, 09:09 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clspruiell View Post
I did this yesterday and it really seems to have helped! It's not perfect yet, but from what I can tell its much better. I hope this is a decently long term solution.

I would also like more information about the BMW additive being different/better than Chevron's Techron. My SA really didn't know if it was any different.

Is there any definitive evidence that BMW's cleaner is better?

Anyway thanks for the advice, I drove 80mph in 4th gear (right around 4k rpms) for 30 mins.
The fact that you noticed an improvement after one high RPM run tells me that you have carbon buildup. As for the BMW fuel system cleaner plus vs. the auto store techron see what I wrote above. Mike Miller tells me the BMW stuff is of a stronger concentration, but no one really knows. The price spread is close so I would buy the BMW branded stuff myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM67 View Post
I have a 2008 335i with 42,000 miles -- the HPFP and fuel injectors were replaced around 30k. Somewhere around 40k I started to experience the exact same symptoms that the OP described but on 5 different occasions over a 2 month period I also got the yellow check engine light with "limp" mode. Interestingly, the last three were while cruising at highway speed in 6th gear.

I took it to the dealer, described the symptoms and told them my best guess was carbon build-up. Called at the end of the day to say the car was ready. Based on the error code they replaced 2 hoses connected to the waste gate(s) because they were pinched and deemed "defective." Interesting that the OP's dealer also replaced a defective waste gate part, although not the same parts apparently. By the way, they did not see any evidence of carbon build up - not sure if they were blowing smoke or if they actually checked.

I can confirm that the car is running better but I still feel a very slight hesitation in the 2,500-3,000 range while accelerating in 5th or 6th gear. No yellow check engine lights or limp mode so far. I have run fuel treatment a couple times before the last dealer visit and noticed some modest improvement. I'll probably try it again soon with some high RPM runs for good measure. Hope this info helps.
I think you have carbon buildup and possibly injector buildup. Before you waste any more time with the dealer I suggest you do what I recommended in my first post and then go back to the dealer if that fails to help. At your mileage, carbon buildup is all but certain.
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  #69  
Old 02-18-2012, 01:33 PM
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Blubaron79 Blubaron79 is offline
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I just had to have all 6 injectors replaced. Is the carbon build up on the injectors, or inside the engine? I am running a 3rd bottle through now. I still have a slight hesitation.
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  #70  
Old 03-07-2012, 04:02 PM
infidel82 infidel82 is offline
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N54 with hesitation between 2100 and 2500. 4 Injectors replaced last year and the HP Fuel pump the year before.

The present stance with the dealer is the a carbon clean (taking apart and cleaning by walnut shell blasting) is non-warranty and non-maintenance and runs at around 1000USD, and that it MAY fix the issue. There are no fault codes reported.

So consider this.... Injectors typically malfunction one of two ways:
1) They do not fire at the correct time, or for the correct duration (or do not fire at all)
2) The spray dispersal pattern of the injector is not correct

Consider scenario one:
a) Injector fires at the incorrect time. The ECU will compensate by increasing ignition advance or retard to get the timing correct, thus automatically eliminating minor changes in firing time
b) Injector fires for the incorrect duration. Typically this is calibrated out by recalibrating the voltage into the piezo electric crystal (this can be done by a dealer)
c) The injector doesn't fire. The car would run like a dog and you would have it back at the dealer immediately. It would not go un-noticed.

Scenario 2:
Spray dispersal pattern is incorrect. In engine design engines are designed to accept a specific pattern of spray (i.e. a cone or a pyramid) and this is used in complex CFD (computational fluid dynamics) programs to determine the best spray shape to promote the best mix... This way all of the fuel mixes evenly with air (this is known as swirl factor) it detonates creating a nice uniform pressure pushing the cylinder down . Over time the high pressures in a direct injection engine could cause this spray pattern to be corrupted, meaning that N54 engines end up having a service bulletin a good few years after they were released...

Now consider this... If the injectors have been firing the incorrect shape then the swirl factor is going to be incorrect, leading to eddies in the charge (gas/air mix) will cause unburnt fuel being deposited on the cylinder walls. It will still ignite but its location on the cylinder wall means the combustion of the hydrocarbon (gasoline) means there is a deposit of carbon on the walls which will build up. With the build up it will cause the shape of the cylinder to change. You replace the injectors, yes the spray shape will improve BUT there is still going to be carbon build up on the cylinder walls meaning that you will still have the incorrect swirl pattern in the cylinder... We are now stuck in a feedback loop....

Skip on a bit... As the build up gets worse the engine will progressively become worse.


So... We are pretty sure the technical service bulletin 325091 is likely to address the incorrect dispersal pattern of gasoline... Even by changing the injectors there will be an increased build up of carbon in the cylinders. 325091 accepts a manufacturing defect, but does not address the fact that carbon build up could be increased by this. Therefore a manufacturing defect has given rise to a secondary effect of carbon build up.


The use of a cleaning chemical that is carbon reactive is a good idea but it would typically not correct for malfunctioning injectors. Build up on injectors will likely cause more severe problems, and is unlikely as it is the point of highest pressure, meaning it is unlikely for fuel to "cling" to the injector. It is more likely unburned fuel will make for the cooler cylinder walls. The running of the engine at higher RPM also makes sense as increasing temp/pressure typically will accelerate most chemical reactions.


Therefore don't go paying for walnut blasting of your engine if you have had injector issues. It is quite likely that the injectors caused the issue in the first place.

If you have had the injector change my humble suggestion is run a few tanks of cleaner through it to be on the safe side as alpine has said.


Of course a lot of this is conjecture however looking at symptoms and reading other persons experience I believe it to be technically sound. If you want to disagree fair enough I won't argue with you, and would be interested to hear your thoughts!

Hope some of you are still awake!

Oh cool forums by the way
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  #71  
Old 03-07-2012, 04:16 PM
infidel82 infidel82 is offline
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* correction. The point at the end of the injector is highest velocity therefore lowest pressure. The point still stands though, fuel is unlikely to "pool" at this point.
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  #72  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:11 PM
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Blubaron79 Blubaron79 is offline
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Bring this thread back.

It was def. Carbon build up. 5 hours of walnut blasting to clean the intakes of carbon build up. The car runs so much better. It's like I added 50hp.

I haven't seen a lot of threads on this board about Walnut blasting. It def needs to be done to the N54 engine about every 50k miles. The pictures the SA showed me were the dirtiest intakes I've ever seen compared to pics of other people posting. Love the way my engine feels!
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  #73  
Old 04-27-2012, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Mike Miller tells me to stick with BMW fuel system cleaner plus so I trust what he says. There is apparently some difference from the BMW stuff and the Techron stuff you buy at the auto parts store. Given the nominal price difference (less than 3 bucks a bottle) I will buy the BMW stuff.
Doesn't seem like BMW has much of a problem with Techron.



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  #74  
Old 04-28-2012, 10:25 AM
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chris328 chris328 is offline
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shell is good gas but i think it burns a lot faster. i never really noticed it in the BMW, but in my beater, at 87 octane, when i switched from shell to hess my mpg practically doubled.
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  #75  
Old 04-28-2012, 02:46 PM
Ilovemycar Ilovemycar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
Bring this thread back.

It was def. Carbon build up. 5 hours of walnut blasting to clean the intakes of carbon build up. The car runs so much better. It's like I added 50hp.

I haven't seen a lot of threads on this board about Walnut blasting. It def needs to be done to the N54 engine about every 50k miles. The pictures the SA showed me were the dirtiest intakes I've ever seen compared to pics of other people posting. Love the way my engine feels!
Blubaron, may I ask how much this cost, and the time it took? Thanks, PM is fine too, I was just curious . . .
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