2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.

Originally Posted by EricTsang

so the base 2.5 has been rated at 22/33 with less power? Is that engine even comparable since the ATS also has a mid-;eve; 2.0T engine?

Caddy rated both the 2.0T and 2.5L at 22/32 mpg themselves, and EPA certified the 2.5L at 22/33 mpg. The 2.0T should be about the same then.

The ATS may very well be the best all around entry level sport sedan, but what PISSES me off about GM is that they always leave their vehicles less than perfect. That CUE is going to be devastating. It's a very laggy touchscreen system thats already behind the curve even before its fully available. I't like they've been focused on BMW's dynamics so hard that they completely missed Ford's Sync system and how bad the ratings were on it.

The competition already has instrument cluster-level infotainment screens without touch screen, but GM decided not to do the same. I hope this car delivers because just like Sync, that CUE system will keep it from being perfect. Touch screens (in vehicles) are a thing of the past especially since top manufactures are now elevating them to keep them at eye level.

My understanding is, everything you can do with the touch screen CUE, you can also do on the cluster level instrument screen. The cluster is completely digital, just another screen, no analog stuff anymore.

I can certainly see reliability issues there.

CUE is what put me off ATS for my new car this year. I hate the idea of futzing around with a touch-screen while driving. Too many things can go wrong, both inside and outside the car.

I drove the C300 and while their screen is better than CUE, it still takes too many clicks and turns to get what I want out of it.

I think iDrive is the gold standard of screens. Once you invest the time to learn it, usability becomes second nature. And the aesthetics of the information delivery is first-class.

Originally Posted by dtc100

ATS should sell well even if it cost the same as a CTS, provided that the CTS is now discounted to the point it cost less than the 3ers.

As an example, a base CTS (with a 3.6L) can be leased for under $300/mo. with no money down. If the upcoming ATS 3.6L could be had for similar payment, it would be a very hot seller.

I don't think that the ATS will sell well .... too small for what a real Caddy buyer expects. For November, the ATS sales are almost at the bottom of its class. However adding both (CTS/ATS) is interesting for GM.

Originally Posted by Saintor

I don't think that the ATS will sell well .... too small for what a real Caddy buyer expects. For November, the ATS sales are almost at the bottom of its class. However adding both (CTS/ATS) is interesting for GM.

How were F30 sales in the first 2 months? The point is that it's brand new, advertising started in the last month and most models are still in short supply. Also, it's not aimed at typical Caddy drivers.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

How were F30 sales in the first 2 months? The point is that it's brand new, advertising started in the last month and most models are still in short supply. Also, it's not aimed at typical Caddy drivers.

It's a car with no customer, nothing can change that.

Besides being one of the most important segments, the sport sedan is also one of the most competitive segments and Cadillac hasn't done anything to make it a worthy alternative to the 3 or the C no matter what the auto magazines say.

When it comes to performance, Cadillac may have done a few things with the cars smaller size, firmer suspension, and tighter steering to earn it praise but those are the very things that the typical customer doesn't want; BMW has done the exact opposite with the F30, in fact.

This is why BMW didn't make a 15-years-later E46 clone themselves. No one wants one. Especially one thats got a brand associated with 70 year olds and questionable quality. All the TV commercials with 29 year olds on windy Euro roads isn't going to change that.

BJ

Originally Posted by chasfh

I think iDrive is the gold standard of screens. Once you invest the time to learn it, usability becomes second nature. And the aesthetics of the information delivery is first-class.

I think the same can be said about CUE, just a learning process for a very different user experience. Once you are familiar with it, it becomes second nature.

The reviewers will never have time to get familiar with them, at least not initially.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's a car with no customer, nothing can change that.

Besides being one of the most important segments, the sport sedan is also one of the most competitive segments and Cadillac hasn't done anything to make it a worthy alternative to the 3 or the C no matter what the auto magazines say.

When it comes to performance, Cadillac may have done a few things with the cars smaller size, firmer suspension, and tighter steering to earn it praise but those are the very things that the typical customer doesn't want; BMW has done the exact opposite with the F30, in fact.

This is why BMW didn't make a 15-years-later E46 clone themselves. No one wants one. Especially one thats got a brand associated with 70 year olds and questionable quality. All the TV commercials with 29 year olds on windy Euro roads isn't going to change that.

BJ

Selling over 2,000 on the second full month of the release is not a dismal result, heck the Lexus IS sold less.

If the sales continue the trend to double every month, it will quickly change the conversation, but will it?

I am not betting for or against it, it is simply too soon to tell. GM is not offering any incentives yet, they can if they want to show the numbers. Right now the ATS is selling at about the same price as the F30 due to incentives on the F30. I believe ATS has to undercut F30 and C Class prices in order to be competitive.

Originally Posted by chasfh

CUE is what put me off ATS for my new car this year. I hate the idea of futzing around with a touch-screen while driving. Too many things can go wrong, both inside and outside the car.

Edmunds Inside Line was trashing CUE on their long-term ATS this week. Sounds like a disaster. They said it's like beta software.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's a car with no customer, nothing can change that.

Besides being one of the most important segments, the sport sedan is also one of the most competitive segments and Cadillac hasn't done anything to make it a worthy alternative to the 3 or the C no matter what the auto magazines say.

When it comes to performance, Cadillac may have done a few things with the cars smaller size, firmer suspension, and tighter steering to earn it praise but those are the very things that the typical customer doesn't want; BMW has done the exact opposite with the F30, in fact.

This is why BMW didn't make a 15-years-later E46 clone themselves. No one wants one. Especially one thats got a brand associated with 70 year olds and questionable quality. All the TV commercials with 29 year olds on windy Euro roads isn't going to change that.

BJ

The irony is that maybe if Cadillac had really made an E46 clone, it might be a hit, but the car is the exact same weight as the F30, and within an inch or so in every dimension. It's an E46 clone in marketing materials only.

They did a lot right with the car (suspension, optional LSD and MRC), but to win this segment you have to do everything right (Styling, CUE/iDrive, lots of variety of options). You can't have a great suspension and crappy LCD interface and expect to topple BMW.

Originally Posted by Chris90

The irony is that maybe if Cadillac had really made an E46 clone, it might be a hit, but the car is the exact same weight as the F30, and within an inch or so in every dimension. It's an E46 clone in marketing materials only.

They did a lot right with the car (suspension, optional LSD and MRC), but to win this segment you have to do everything right (Styling, CUE/iDrive, lots of variety of options). You can't have a great suspension and crappy LCD interface and expect to topple BMW.

Cadillac doesn't need to win the segment. Selling 100,000 ATS's right away is a tall task. And the target was E46 handling which they apparently nailed.

I don't think Cadillac had any illusions about outselling BMW. The ATS is their attempt to enter the market segment and it will take a few years for sales to build.

I know the fanbois here will deny that but I would guess BMW is watching the segment very closely. Remember the "No BMW driver will ever buy a rebadged Toyota" claims. I know BMW does because Lexus was the best selling luxury brand until BMW took the title recently. Lexus took the title from Cadillac and they also made a huge dent in BMW and Mercedes sales. Cadillac and Lexus lost the market by making poor decisions. BMW hasn't yet but that does not mean they can't.

Originally Posted by UnderSteer

I don't think Cadillac had any illusions about outselling BMW. The ATS is their attempt to enter the market segment and it will take a few years for sales to build.

I know the fanbois here will deny that but I would guess BMW is watching the segment very closely. Remember the "No BMW driver will ever buy a rebadged Toyota" claims. I know BMW does because Lexus was the best selling luxury brand until BMW took the title recently. Lexus took the title from Cadillac and they also made a huge dent in BMW and Mercedes sales. Cadillac and Lexus lost the market by making poor decisions. BMW hasn't yet but that does not mean they can't.

I think Lexus lost the market cause of the tsunami.

BMW is now offering me a $3,500 incentive on top of what I'm able to negotiate with the dealer. That's a compelling reason to choose a BMW.

Originally Posted by beden1

BMW is now offering me a $3,500 incentive on top of what I'm able to negotiate with the dealer. That's a compelling reason to choose a BMW.

Is that $3500.00 on a 3 series? The website says "select" models with no specifics.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Is that $3500.00 on a 3 series? The website says "select" models with no specifics.

I threw out the mailer I received from BMW a couple of days ago and also the email that I received. This is what I copied from the BMWUSA site:

Enjoy a Holiday Credit of up to $3,500 on select models at the BMW Happier New Year Event, now until January 2, 2013.1
Current and returning BMW owners can get $750 in lease/finance Loyalty Cash on any new 2012 or 2013 BMW.2
Existing BMW Financial Services customers can take up to $700 off a new 2012 or 2013 BMW. Just download the BMW Ultimate Drive App and take a test drive.
Offer ends December 31, 2012.3

I'll ask my dealer what cars BMW includes on this deal when I take my wife's car in for service for something they screwed up last week when it was there. I love wasting my time!

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's a car with no customer, nothing can change that.

Besides being one of the most important segments, the sport sedan is also one of the most competitive segments and Cadillac hasn't done anything to make it a worthy alternative to the 3 or the C no matter what the auto magazines say.

When it comes to performance, Cadillac may have done a few things with the cars smaller size, firmer suspension, and tighter steering to earn it praise but those are the very things that the typical customer doesn't want; BMW has done the exact opposite with the F30, in fact.

This is why BMW didn't make a 15-years-later E46 clone themselves. No one wants one. Especially one thats got a brand associated with 70 year olds and questionable quality. All the TV commercials with 29 year olds on windy Euro roads isn't going to change that.

BJ

Hi BJ. I know you've been beating this line of thought to death for months now but Cadillac is not stupid and of course there is a market for the car. Even if it's just people who want an American made rear drive sports sedan the market exists and there is absolutely no doubt that in 2-3 years Cadillac will be selling 50,000+/year. You yourself make fun of people who buy this class of car but Cadillac does have a younger demographic these days and what they are doing is covering the market as an American luxury car manufacturer. It's been a very long time since Caddy's were road worthy boats and even the late DTS was not exactly a Sedan de Ville.

Myself, as an enthusiast, if the ATS 2.0T had a better engine and MT, I'd be all over this car at the right price. The F30 is now over my budget unless BMW offers some heavy incentives.

Originally Posted by Chris90

The irony is that maybe if Cadillac had really made an E46 clone, it might be a hit, but the car is the exact same weight as the F30, and within an inch or so in every dimension. It's an E46 clone in marketing materials only.

They did a lot right with the car (suspension, optional LSD and MRC), but to win this segment you have to do everything right (Styling, CUE/iDrive, lots of variety of options). You can't have a great suspension and crappy LCD interface and expect to topple BMW.

I think one of the things that hurts the ATS the most is the styling. It looks like a smaller version of the CTS, the Escalade, the rest of the whole Cadillac families' design language.

If I were Cadillac, I would've used the ATS to signal the start of a new design era and really freshen it up and make it feel like something unique and very distinctive. Instead, it comes across as a smaller, poor man's CTS and I'm sure that's not what they intended. When you're fighting the stigma of building cars for 70-year-olds, making one that looks exactly like what the 70-year-olds drive is a bit of a problem.

BJ

Originally Posted by beden1

I threw out the mailer I received from BMW a couple of days ago and also the email that I received. This is what I copied from the BMWUSA site:

Enjoy a Holiday Credit of up to $3,500 on select models at the BMW Happier New Year Event, now until January 2, 2013.1
Current and returning BMW owners can get $750 in lease/finance Loyalty Cash on any new 2012 or 2013 BMW.2
Existing BMW Financial Services customers can take up to $700 off a new 2012 or 2013 BMW. Just download the BMW Ultimate Drive App and take a test drive. Offer ends December 31, 2012.3

I'll ask my dealer what cars BMW includes on this deal when I take my wife's car in for service for something they screwed up last week when it was there. I love wasting my time!

I look forward to hearing what your dealer says. Definitely some good deals out there.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I think one of the things that hurts the ATS the most is the styling. It looks like a smaller version of the CTS, the Escalade, the rest of the whole Cadillac families' design language.

If I were Cadillac, I would've used the ATS to signal the start of a new design era and really freshen it up and make it feel like something unique and very distinctive. Instead, it comes across as a smaller, poor man's CTS and I'm sure that's not what they intended. When you're fighting the stigma of building cars for 70-year-olds, making one that looks exactly like what the 70-year-olds drive is a bit of a problem.

BJ

I think you need to correct this to 80-year olds. Unfortunately for Cadillac, most of these customers had their drivers license taken away for medical reasons.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I think one of the things that hurts the ATS the most is the styling. It looks like a smaller version of the CTS, the Escalade, the rest of the whole Cadillac families' design language.

If I were Cadillac, I would've used the ATS to signal the start of a new design era and really freshen it up and make it feel like something unique and very distinctive. Instead, it comes across as a smaller, poor man's CTS and I'm sure that's not what they intended. When you're fighting the stigma of building cars for 70-year-olds, making one that looks exactly like what the 70-year-olds drive is a bit of a problem.

BJ

Given that reasoning why doesn't the F30 come off as a poor man's 5 or 7 Series?

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Given that reasoning why doesn't the F30 come off as a poor man's 5 or 7 Series?

CA

We have you performance enthusiasts to thank for that.

Years of positive BMW credibility and brand perception has lived off of the 3 Series as the "perfect" sport sedan, most view the 5 and 7 as the larger 3 and not the other way around. That's why this whole competition is such an unfair, uphill battle for any other car maker. The 3 has been so perfect for so long, there is little reason for anyone who owns one to defect and so many reasons for those who have resisted to come join the fun.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

We have you performance enthusiasts to thank for that.

Years of positive BMW credibility and brand perception has lived off of the 3 Series as the "perfect" sport sedan, most view the 5 and 7 as the larger 3 and not the other way around. That's why this whole competition is such an unfair, uphill battle for any other car maker. The 3 has been so perfect for so long, there is little reason for anyone who owns one to defect and so many reasons for those who have resisted to come join the fun.

BJ

Most 7 buyers and are cross shopping the Mercedes S Class, Audi A8, Jag XK, Porsche Panamera. But I suppose there are buyers who had a 3, liked it and then moved on to the 5 and 7. The 7 does not tend to be a first car. And I think this works both way. The 7 gets some sports cred from the 3 and the 3 gets some luxury cred from the 7.

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