2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.

Do they offer Detroit delivery?

Originally Posted by TJPark01

I have to give Cadillac some props for building this car. They definitely have their act together. Look at them versus the quagmire that is Lincoln. But seriously, unless pricing is at a substantial discount, why would anyone considering a 3 series take a gamble on a new GM model? Infiniti G, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class, Volvo S60,Lexus IS... the segment is crowded with mature proven models and none of the aforementioned have been able to knock BMW 3 series off it's gilded pedestal. If I was looking to save a few bucks and still get a great car a G37 would be up there, but a Cadillac ATS? I guess since so many people lease now a days, if the lease pricing is aggressive this thing may rent well.

I see no value in the A4 (too expensive, too heavy, so-so performance), G (too heavy, too big, too coarse) or the other cars mentioned. The CTS I test drove was very nice but too big and mature for my tastes. A smaller version of the CTS sounds enticing. An ATS-V could be amazing.

Originally Posted by dtc100

... I think the ATS will have an edge on the suspension.

Why do you say this?

Originally Posted by 7or8

Why do you say this?

GM's magnetic ride control is well known, they also know more about the road conditions in the US than the Germans.

Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90. Hopefully the suspension in the F30 is much improved.

Originally Posted by dtc100

You have just lost a great deal of credibility for any opinions you have about a car.

If GM can manufacture a sport sedan with the 3er's driving dynamics and Corvette like performance, it will be a serious threat. The CTS is still a little too big and heavy, but the ATS seems to be rightfully aimed at the 3.

It is not just the BMW enthusiasts who are saying BMW is moving away from its heritage.

The Hyundai Eqqus is taking on the 7er right? No one is buying it because of the badge...even if it matches it feature by feature and stat by stat.

No thanks.

Originally Posted by TJPark01

I have to give Cadillac some props for building this car. They definitely have their act together. Look at them versus the quagmire that is Lincoln. But seriously, unless pricing is at a substantial discount, why would anyone considering a 3 series take a gamble on a new GM model? Infiniti G, Audi A4, Mercedes C Class, Volvo S60,Lexus IS... the segment is crowded with mature proven models and none of the aforementioned have been able to knock BMW 3 series off it's gilded pedestal. If I was looking to save a few bucks and still get a great car a G37 would be up there, but a Cadillac ATS? I guess since so many people lease now a days, if the lease pricing is aggressive this thing may rent well.

I agree, the performance per dollar would need to be there, for me to even consider it. If they think they can just bring a car in mark the price around a 328/335 and deliver less or par performance, they'll be on the biggest flop list with the aztech in a few years.

Originally Posted by dtc100

GM's magnetic ride control is well known, they also know more about the road conditions in the US than the Germans.

Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90. Hopefully the suspension in the F30 is much improved.

I have zero issues with the suspension on my e90. It's damn near perfect IMO.

Originally Posted by jocamryn

The Hyundai Eqqus is taking on the 7er right? No one is buying it because of the badge...even if it matches it feature by feature and stat by stat.

No thanks.

I agree than no one is buying the Equus because of the badge -- but I wouldn't say "no one" is buying the Equus -- if the Equus is meant to compete with the features of the 7-Series and costs $55k versus $66k -- if I were in BMW marketing their sales figures so far would send a small chill up my spine!



As a matter of comparison, BMW sold 1,227 examples of the 7-Series in November 2011 and 803 in November 2010. YTD sales were 10,080 in 2011 and 11,229 in 2010.

Impressive results given that the Equus is a brand-new model, and, well, it's a $55k Hyundai and so it won't attract very many status seekers, if any at all!

Reporting from the Detroit Auto Show I am sad to report that in my opinion the ATS in person is disappointing. It doesn't stand out, the styling is surprisingly un-edgy in person, the door handles feel cheap and the interior is poorly implemented. I was more excited about this car on paper, in person for me it isn't a BMW killer. Yes it will take sales away from the 3 for some buyer, but it's not on par with Audi and BMW for build quality, styling or interior.

Tim

Originally Posted by tim330i

Reporting from the Detroit Auto Show I am sad to report that in my opinion the ATS in person is disappointing. It doesn't stand out, the styling is surprisingly un-edgy in person, the door handles feel cheap and the interior is poorly implemented. I was more excited about this car on paper, in person for me it isn't a BMW killer. Yes it will take sales away from the 3 for some buyer, but it's not on par with Audi and BMW for build quality, styling or interior.

Tim

What are the engine specs for it?

Originally Posted by dtc100

GM's magnetic ride control is well known, they also know more about the road conditions in the US than the Germans.

Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90. Hopefully the suspension in the F30 is much improved.

Ok, I understand

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

What are the engine specs for it?

From MotorTrend -

• First application of GM's new Gen II Ecotec four-cylinder engine in a Cadillac. The engine features dual overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, and variable valve timing. It will be used in a wide variety of GM products, but the versions fitted to the ATS will be the most powerful.
• Base engine is the 200-hp Gen II Ecotec 2.5-liter DI four, which made its debut in the new Chevy Malibu. The engine will power the base RWD car with FE2 suspension.
• A 2.0-liter turbo Gen II Ecotec with 270 hp will make its debut in the ATS. This engine has the broadest bandwidth and will be used in RWD and AWD auto, RWD manual models, and with FE2 and FE3 suspensions.
• Carryover 3.6-liter DI V-6 is revised for improved refinement and is rated at 318 hp in this application.

For my part I'll definitely give it a look when it comes time to shop again. I keep coming back to BMW precisely because nothing gives me the same driving experience as a well built and tuned Bavarian motor car... but that doesn't meant that I'm sold on the brand.

I think that Cadillac are actually doing it right. The problem I've seen with many manufacturers is that they always target the CURRENT 3-series for their competitive products (witness Audi, Infiniti et al). While the E9x is a damned fine car, I've always felt that it was softer, more mature and "older" than the E46. I loved my E46 and though I liked the E9x I never loved it. That's why I went with an E82 (1'er) in the end; it was far closer to the E46 than the E9x ever managed, though it has gobs more power and technology my poor E46 could only dream of. I hang around this forum because I'm watching the F3x carefully for my next car, and although I'm reserving judgment until I've had a chance to drive one (or more) I must say that so far the reports I'm reading make it sound like BMW have continued on the same trajectory they started with the E9x. That disappoints me because I had hoped the F3x was a more "back to the heritage" sort of car. Again though I'm making no assumptions until I have actually put a few miles on one.

The fact that Cadillac are looking at the E46 for inspiration is in itself interesting. The E46 is still intensely well regarded by auto enthusiasts even outside BMW enthusiasts. The E9x though is seen as a great car though a little "lost" in its connection to BMW traditions. Sure, the E46 had its share of problems (like the self-detonating cooling system) but the driving experience was what made it, and kept it at the forefront. Quite apart from everything else, BMW made far too many compromises with the suspension in order to switch to run-flats... compromises that took 5 years to tune to what we finally ended up with in the last couple of years of the E9x. That gave early E9x's a "busy" feeling on the highways that was tiring over long drives and resulted in a certain amount of understeer that is "un-BMW-like". Sure you could replace the RFT's but then you end up with a car with far softer suspension than it needs and it (in my opinion) feels worse. Later E9x's fixed a lot of these sins, but there's still a certain softness to the suspension even in the last E9x's that doesn't go away until you upgrade yourself to the M3... which has no RFT's and far better suspension.

I am glad to see someone looking at what driving enthusiasts want and trying to fill that niche. I am also glad to see Cadillac doing it; they weren't always the "codger-mobile" manufacturer. There was a time they were respected for building luxury sports sedans that beat the hell out of everything else out there... though this was long before I was born and well before BMW unleashed the 2002 on the world.

As an aside though, I am holding out hope for the F3x. When I was in Germany I was driving a new F10 5'er and I was heartily impressed with that car. While it was still a far bigger car than I wanted, it managed somehow to feel smaller than my E60 when it counted... while managing to feel like a large and comfortable chariot when I needed it to be. Of course, there were aspects I didn't like; it took the E60 idea of using technology instead of engineering to overcome chassis "sins" to a whole new level and so there were times that driving it felt more like a video game than actually driving a car. But it was still far better than I expected it to be when I first heard I'd be getting that as a loaner.

If nothing else, actual good competition will maybe push F3x mid-cycle refresh to be a far better car. Not to say it won't be good out of the gate... but higher stakes in this game can't hurt the consumer.

Originally Posted by Majikthese42

I agree than no one is buying the Equus because of the badge -- but I wouldn't say "no one" is buying the Equus -- if the Equus is meant to compete with the features of the 7-Series and costs $55k versus $66k -- if I were in BMW marketing their sales figures so far would send a small chill up my spine!



As a matter of comparison, BMW sold 1,227 examples of the 7-Series in November 2011 and 803 in November 2010. YTD sales were 10,080 in 2011 and 11,229 in 2010.

Impressive results given that the Equus is a brand-new model, and, well, it's a $55k Hyundai and so it won't attract very many status seekers, if any at all!

Agree. And this is the major difference in strategies. The Equus is a vastly less expensive alternative to a 7 series of S Class or LS460. From initial reports, it doesn't look like the ATS is going to be vastly cheaper than a 3 series.

Originally Posted by TJPark01

Agree. And this is the major difference in strategies. The Equus is a vastly less expensive alternative to a 7 series of S Class or LS460. From initial reports, it doesn't look like the ATS is going to be vastly cheaper than a 3 series.

Of course Caddy is no Hyundai either. But I agree the ATS will have trouble selling if it is priced at the F30 level. But then again, if it produces some impressive performance numbers, sounds nice and aggresive (somethings the 328s usually lack), it may just do it.

The difference here is, BMW 3ers are its base model, they must rely on them to meet CAFE standards. Caddy does not.

Originally Posted by TJPark01

Agree. And this is the major difference in strategies. The Equus is a vastly less expensive alternative to a 7 series of S Class or LS460. From initial reports, it doesn't look like the ATS is going to be vastly cheaper than a 3 series.

The Hyundai products are less expensive for a number of reasons and while they are relative bargains, the reviews say they are not nearly as refined as their competition. If Cadillac hopes to compete against BMW they will need to provide more than sharp handling. Refinement means intuitive handling, smooth engines with nice clutches and gearboxes, quality switchgear and sweating the small details (like a damped glovebox door, no sharp edges, etc.).

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

The Hyundai products are less expensive for a number of reasons and while they are relative bargains, the reviews say they are not nearly as refined as their competition. If Cadillac hopes to compete against BMW they will need to provide more than sharp handling. Refinement means intuitive handling, smooth engines with nice clutches and gearboxes, quality switchgear and sweating the small details (like a damped glovebox door, no sharp edges, etc.).

My Cruze Eco already has the most fluid MT tranny I have ever driven, more so than the MT in a 128i I test drove.

Having said that, I don't expect the ATS having as smooth an engine as the F30, but then we are comparing the turbo 4 bangers, smoothness is not their strong point. Which is why IMO intake and exhaust tuning would make a difference.

We know the new 328i will have little sound tuning to speak of. I am curious to see how Caddy address this issue.

BTW, the Hyundai Genesis 2.0T coupe has very nice exhaust sound.

I don't mind the car and I'd super tempted that a diesel will be offered. Something BMW hasn't confirmed. I am seriously considering an F30 in a couple years, but this will be interesting.

My only issues are that only rednecks drive Cadillacs and my local Cadillac dealer is apart of a sleazy Chevy dealer. I refuse to go and get my luxury car serviced by the same people that bring Aveos. I'm sorry. I'm not sold yet. So there's a lot of tech, but will it work? Ford pushed the whole MyTouch system and it turned out to be a POS. I doubt GM could one-up them. I'll give Cadillac another generation before I seriously put my money down

Originally Posted by tim330i

Reporting from the Detroit Auto Show I am sad to report that in my opinion the ATS in person is disappointing. It doesn't stand out, the styling is surprisingly un-edgy in person, the door handles feel cheap and the interior is poorly implemented. I was more excited about this car on paper, in person for me it isn't a BMW killer. Yes it will take sales away from the 3 for some buyer, but it's not on par with Audi and BMW for build quality, styling or interior.

Tim

Sounds like the current crop of American cars. I love the looks of the new Ford Fusion, but as always, there is always so much garnish and no substance behind it. For example, the Fiesta and Focus. They look great, but have cheap interiors and terrible DCT transmissions.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Sounds like the current crop of American cars. I love the looks of the new Ford Fusion, but as always, there is always so much garnish and no substance behind it. For example, the Fiesta and Focus. They look great, but have cheap interiors and terrible DCT transmissions.

Most American cars give you a lot for the money. I often rent Fusion's and find them a well made, well designed family car. There's too much cheap plastic in the interior and the steering wheel cold have been in my grandfathers 1970 Malibu but overall it's a fine car. Loaded with leather, V6, bluetooth, climate control, XM, etc... they retail for about $27,500.00. Of course there are great lease and purchase deals. It is what it is. Not a BMW, not a Honda but a good car at a very good price.

Im definatelly getting a cadi im tired of getting rip off at the bmw stealership..bmw sucks

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Most American cars give you a lot for the money. I often rent Fusion's and find them a well made, well designed family car. There's too much cheap plastic in the interior and the steering wheel cold have been in my grandfathers 1970 Malibu but overall it's a fine car. Loaded with leather, V6, bluetooth, climate control, XM, etc... they retail for about $27,500.00. Of course there are great lease and purchase deals. It is what it is. Not a BMW, not a Honda but a good car at a very good price.

The Fusion I test drove two years ago did feel cheap inside, I don't know if it has improved. But the 2012 Cruze Eco definitely does not feel cheap inside, for under $20k.

It is not luxury of course, but quite upscale, with the right door shut sound too. Why I am hopeful the ATS can be promising.

Originally Posted by thumper_330

For my part I'll definitely give it a look when it comes time to shop again. I keep coming back to BMW precisely because nothing gives me the same driving experience as a well built and tuned Bavarian motor car... but that doesn't meant that I'm sold on the brand.

I think that Cadillac are actually doing it right. The problem I've seen with many manufacturers is that they always target the CURRENT 3-series for their competitive products (witness Audi, Infiniti et al). While the E9x is a damned fine car, I've always felt that it was softer, more mature and "older" than the E46. I loved my E46 and though I liked the E9x I never loved it. That's why I went with an E82 (1'er) in the end; it was far closer to the E46 than the E9x ever managed, though it has gobs more power and technology my poor E46 could only dream of. I hang around this forum because I'm watching the F3x carefully for my next car, and although I'm reserving judgment until I've had a chance to drive one (or more) I must say that so far the reports I'm reading make it sound like BMW have continued on the same trajectory they started with the E9x. That disappoints me because I had hoped the F3x was a more "back to the heritage" sort of car. Again though I'm making no assumptions until I have actually put a few miles on one.

The fact that Cadillac are looking at the E46 for inspiration is in itself interesting. The E46 is still intensely well regarded by auto enthusiasts even outside BMW enthusiasts. The E9x though is seen as a great car though a little "lost" in its connection to BMW traditions. Sure, the E46 had its share of problems (like the self-detonating cooling system) but the driving experience was what made it, and kept it at the forefront. Quite apart from everything else, BMW made far too many compromises with the suspension in order to switch to run-flats... compromises that took 5 years to tune to what we finally ended up with in the last couple of years of the E9x. That gave early E9x's a "busy" feeling on the highways that was tiring over long drives and resulted in a certain amount of understeer that is "un-BMW-like". Sure you could replace the RFT's but then you end up with a car with far softer suspension than it needs and it (in my opinion) feels worse. Later E9x's fixed a lot of these sins, but there's still a certain softness to the suspension even in the last E9x's that doesn't go away until you upgrade yourself to the M3... which has no RFT's and far better suspension.

I am glad to see someone looking at what driving enthusiasts want and trying to fill that niche. I am also glad to see Cadillac doing it; they weren't always the "codger-mobile" manufacturer. There was a time they were respected for building luxury sports sedans that beat the hell out of everything else out there... though this was long before I was born and well before BMW unleashed the 2002 on the world.

As an aside though, I am holding out hope for the F3x. When I was in Germany I was driving a new F10 5'er and I was heartily impressed with that car. While it was still a far bigger car than I wanted, it managed somehow to feel smaller than my E60 when it counted... while managing to feel like a large and comfortable chariot when I needed it to be. Of course, there were aspects I didn't like; it took the E60 idea of using technology instead of engineering to overcome chassis "sins" to a whole new level and so there were times that driving it felt more like a video game than actually driving a car. But it was still far better than I expected it to be when I first heard I'd be getting that as a loaner.

If nothing else, actual good competition will maybe push F3x mid-cycle refresh to be a far better car. Not to say it won't be good out of the gate... but higher stakes in this game can't hurt the consumer.

Agreed. Perfectly written.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The Fusion I test drove two years ago did feel cheap inside, I don't know if it has improved. But the 2012 Cruze Eco definitely does not feel cheap inside, for under $20k.

It is not luxury of course, but quite upscale, with the right door shut sound too. Why I am hopeful the ATS can be promising.

Interesting as to me the Cruze felt like a shoddy 1990's interior. Still holding out hope for the ATS.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Sounds like the current crop of American cars. I love the looks of the new Ford Fusion, but as always, there is always so much garnish and no substance behind it. For example, the Fiesta and Focus. They look great, but have cheap interiors and terrible DCT transmissions.

Ford released new software for the Fiesta and Focus DCTs. Not that it matters as I can't see getting an automatic.

Originally Posted by dtc100

GM's magnetic ride control is well known, they also know more about the road conditions in the US than the Germans.

Of course it is not difficult to have an edge over the suspension in the E90. Hopefully the suspension in the F30 is much improved.

According to the press release the magnet controlled shocks are only in the optional FE3 suspension package. The F30 has adjustable shocks as std. I hope Cadillac has designed the base ATS to have a firm, controlled suspension. When I test drove a 2009 CTS, the base suspension was pretty soft.