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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #476  
Old 12-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Buildbright Buildbright is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The E46 did not ride like a limousine so there's that and the interior from what I've seen in person doesn't feel any cheaper than an F30, just different. Cue is not an "abomination" but it needs to be better and the 3.6 powertrain is universally acclaimed as a gem. yes the 2.0T is lacking as is it's transmission which is an issue for an enthusiast who wants a MT. The general public who wants an entry level luxury sport sedan will probably care less unless they just want the badge.
The E46 did not have GM's "magic shocks"

The interior on the two I drove had rattles; the gloss black already had some scratches and it was a fingerprint and dust magnate.

The 2.5 liter engine is horrible. The 2.0 Turbo has yet to prove itself. The 3.6 is a decent engine but it is no Gem.

The Cue system doesn’t even get me started. It’s a POS and dangerous.

The German cars are more than badges hence why Cadillac is copy BMW not the other way around. This is not the first time Cadillac tried this remember the Catera? I give Cadillac great acclaim they built a good sports sedan, but don’t make it out to be God. I love that one video when the reporter is driving with the Professional driver and the reporter says "it is like an E46 M3" and the driver simply says "No... it not"

Don’t you think its funny there are no comparisons against the Audi A4 which is actually cheaper?
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  #477  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:58 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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Guys no need to hyperventilate about the ATS. The S4 was crowned the king of the 335i by many magazines. But now that the ATS is out, no one is using the S4 as the benchmark. The benchmark still remains the 3er. The ATS will win some comparisons this year and maybe next, but it will soon be forgotten by the very same reviewers just like the S4.

Relax, there is nothing to fear, if the S4 failed, you think the ATS will do any better?

Last edited by g37to335i; 12-11-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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  #478  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:08 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Guys no need to hyperventilate about the ATS. The S4 was crowned the king of the 335i by many magazines. But now that the ATS is out, no one is using the S4 as the benchmark. The benchmark still remains the 3er. The ATS will win some comparisons this year and maybe next, but it will soon be forgotten by the very same reviewers just like the S4.

Relax, there is nothing to fear, if the S4 failed, you think the ATS will do any better?
The 3 Series is being used as the benchmark because Cadillac very clearly stated that that was the car they were going after. I don't think anyone, including GM, expects that the ATS is going to outsell the 3. The ATS is part of Cadillac's strategy of redefining itself. This is not something that is going to happen over night and it looks like they are headed in the right direction.

The Audi S4 did not fail. It is selling very well.

I really don't understand why it is so important to so many people here for the ATS to fail.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 12-11-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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  #479  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 3 Series is being used as the benchmark because Cadillac very clearly stated that that was the car they were going after. I don't think anyone, including GM, expects that the ATS is going to outsell the 3. The ATS is part of Cadillac's strategy of redefining itself. This is not something that is going to happen over night and it looks like they are headed in the right direction.

The Audi S4 did not fail. It is selling very well.

I really don't understand why it is so important to so many people here for the ATS to fail.

CA
Outstanding post! Agree with you 100%. It appears we have a bunch of fan boys around here!
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  #480  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:34 PM
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Chris90 Chris90 is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Guys no need to hyperventilate about the ATS. The S4 was crowned the king of the 335i by many magazines. But now that the ATS is out, no one is using the S4 as the benchmark. The benchmark still remains the 3er. The ATS will win some comparisons this year and maybe next, but it will soon be forgotten by the very same reviewers just like the S4.

Relax, there is nothing to fear, if the S4 failed, you think the ATS will do any better?
If you're talking sales numbers, both the S4 and 335i lose handily to the 328.

now if the A4 were to beat the 328i in many magazines, that would be another story.
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  #481  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:54 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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No I am referring to being the benchmark. Once you get that the sales numbers follow. I would imagine the 335i beats the S4 in sales. It would be impossible for the 335i to beat the 328i in terms if sales numbers. One appeals to a broader base.
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  #482  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:21 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Is that Al Jolson? By the way I moved from a CTS to a 3 series and thought I made it! At least to the sport sedan of my dreams at the time.


Yes!

Mammy would be pleased, walk a million miles for one of your smiles*

Oh, and Al Jolson wasn't one to be caught dead in a Cadillac either.

BJ

* I have it on good authority that Captain Audio produced Al Jolson in the 1930's.
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  #483  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:34 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Yes!

Mammy would be pleased, walk a million miles for one of your smiles*

Oh, and Al Jolson wasn't one to be caught dead in a Cadillac either.

BJ

* I have it on good authority that Captain Audio produced Al Jolson in the 1930's.
Here's the album jacket from one of the Jolson albums I produced.

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Last edited by captainaudio; 12-11-2012 at 08:39 PM.
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  #484  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:37 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The 3 Series is being used as the benchmark because Cadillac very clearly stated that that was the car they were going after. I don't think anyone, including GM, expects that the ATS is going to outsell the 3. The ATS is part of Cadillac's strategy of redefining itself. This is not something that is going to happen over night and it looks like they are headed in the right direction.

The Audi S4 did not fail. It is selling very well.

I really don't understand why it is so important to so many people here for the ATS to fail.

CA
I did not say the S4 failed in sales, my point is ask anyone who the benchmark is in this segment. Despite the S4 victories from yesteryear the 3er remains it. This is where the S4 fell short. The S4 does not sell that many units if you consider that Audi sells about 3000 units combined for the A and S4 per month. I would assume 20% or 600 for the S4, the 335i may easily triple this.

I don't want the ATS to fail, fate will determine its course but I think it's unnecessary for people to worry or spend so much time on the ATS, it's common for an automaker to challenge the 3er, the c class was there once too, but it will come and go just like a tide. This coming from a G37 owner, speaking from experience I guess.

Once the line up is complete, sedan, coupe, gran coupe, convertible and m versions of all these, it will be tough for the ATS to compete.

Last edited by g37to335i; 12-11-2012 at 08:40 PM.
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  #485  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:49 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
I did not say the S4 failed in sales, my point is ask anyone who the benchmark is in this segment. Despite the S4 victories from yesteryear the 3er remains it. This is where the S4 fell short. The S4 does not sell that many units if you consider that Audi sells about 3000 units combined for the A and S4 per month. I would assume 20% or 600 for the S4, the 335i may easily triple this.

I don't want the ATS to fail, fate will determine its course but I think it's unnecessary for people to worry or spend so much time on the ATS, it's common for an automaker to challenge the 3er, the c class was there once too, but it will come and go just like a tide. This coming from a G37 owner, speaking from experience I guess.

Once the line up is complete, sedan, coupe, gran coupe, convertible and m versions of all these, it will be tough for the ATS to compete.
The S4 sells less than the 335i because it has a higher sticker price and costs more to lease, as Audi does not subsidize their leases like BMW does. Audi also treats their S lines as more exclusive and does not actively market them like BMW does their 3 Series lines. Most S4s are custom ordered according to the local dealers I've spoken with.

IMO, the S4 also falls between the 335i and the M3 anyway.
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Last edited by beden1; 12-11-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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  #486  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:06 PM
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The Luxury car market, and particularly the entry level portion of it, is a very competive and very hotly contested market. In terms of sales Cadillac lead it for years until Lexus took the top spot. Lexus held it until recently when BMW took the top spot. BMW has the lead currently but Lexus, Mercedes and Audi are all in a position to take it from them. I don't see Cadillac regaining the position in the forseeable future but they are definintely making a comeback and are making far more competive offerings that appeal to a wider market than they have in years.

Excepts from a recent article in Forbes:



In the auto industry, as in politics, a third-party entry into a well-known, hotly contested race can cause significant consternation among the rank and file. Sometimes it'll prove enough of a jolt to spoil the lead for a previously guaranteed winner.

American voters saw it when Ralph Nader broke up the deadlock between George W. Bush and Al Gore in 2000. American drivers are seeing it this year, as Audi threatens to affect the years-long deadheat between BMW and Mercedes-Benz for luxury market supremacy.

According to monthly sales figures compiled by Autodata, Audi is closing in on BMW and Mercedes in the race to sell the most luxury cars on the market this year. It likely won't surpass either in overall volume, but it will siphon sales off current leader BMW. Having a target of 200,000 annual sales by 2020, nearly double what it sells now, won't hurt in the process.
"It's really a slug-fest between BMW and Mercedes," says Mike Wall, an auto analyst for IHS Automotive. "Audi is still down in the rankings, but boy they're making a move."

Last month the Mercedes brand beat BMW by 3,189 deliveries though it finished just slightly behind in total sales for 2011. Audi trails both by more than 80,000 deliveries in year-to-date sales; analysts expect that gap to close in the coming years.

Indeed, in a contest once dominated by Lexus, which was No. 1 for 11 years in a row but faltered after Japan's 2011 earthquake, Audi has added a particular volatility that will make it difficult for BMW to repeat its top status.

"There's going to be a lot of action before the year is over," Wall says.
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  #487  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:28 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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The Luxury car market, and particularly the entry level portion of it, is a very competive and very hotly contested market. In terms of sales Cadillac lead it for years until Lexus took the top spot. Lexus held it until recently when BMW took the top spot. BMW has the lead currently but Lexus, Mercedes and Audi are all in a position to take it from them. I don't see Cadillac regaining the position in the forseeable future but they are definintely making a comeback and are making far more competive offerings that appeal to a wider market than they have in years.

Excepts from a recent article in Forbes:


In the auto industry, as in politics, a third-party entry into a well-known, hotly contested race can cause significant consternation among the rank and file. Sometimes it'll prove enough of a jolt to spoil the lead for a previously guaranteed winner.

American voters saw it when Ralph Nader broke up the deadlock between George W. Bush and Al Gore in 2000. American drivers are seeing it this year, as Audi threatens to affect the years-long deadheat between BMW and Mercedes-Benz for luxury market supremacy.

According to monthly sales figures compiled by Autodata, Audi is closing in on BMW and Mercedes in the race to sell the most luxury cars on the market this year. It likely won't surpass either in overall volume, but it will siphon sales off current leader BMW. Having a target of 200,000 annual sales by 2020, nearly double what it sells now, won't hurt in the process.
"It's really a slug-fest between BMW and Mercedes," says Mike Wall, an auto analyst for IHS Automotive. "Audi is still down in the rankings, but boy they're making a move."

Last month the Mercedes brand beat BMW by 3,189 deliveries though it finished just slightly behind in total sales for 2011. Audi trails both by more than 80,000 deliveries in year-to-date sales; analysts expect that gap to close in the coming years.

Indeed, in a contest once dominated by Lexus, which was No. 1 for 11 years in a row but faltered after Japan's 2011 earthquake, Audi has added a particular volatility that will make it difficult for BMW to repeat its top status.

"There's going to be a lot of action before the year is over," Wall says.
That's an interesting article. The VW Group has a terrific stable of auto brands which makes them a force to be reckoned with, both now, and in the future. It will be tough for independent brands like BMW and Mercedes to continue their long term growth while remaining independent.
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Last edited by beden1; 12-11-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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  #488  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:39 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Now the two of you are proving BJ's point, by using the analogy of a third-party entry into politics in the US

As much as no one expected ATS to outsell 3 series, sales figures do matter. They need to at least beat Audi and Infiniti in time to prove themselves.

BTW, both Audi A4/A5/S4/S5 and Infiniti G sold close to 5,000 each last month.

Last edited by dtc100; 12-11-2012 at 10:44 PM.
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  #489  
Old 12-11-2012, 11:21 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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IMO, the S4 also falls between the 335i and the M3 anyway.
I agree, but it is still much closer to the 335i than the M3, both in price and performance. Note that in its lowest trim it costs less than $50K and comes loaded with lots of goodies.
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  #490  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:36 AM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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The S4 sells less than the 335i because it has a higher sticker price and costs more to lease, as Audi does not subsidize their leases like BMW does. Audi also treats their S lines as more exclusive and does not actively market them like BMW does their 3 Series lines. Most S4s are custom ordered according to the local dealers I've spoken with.

IMO, the S4 also falls between the 335i and the M3 anyway.
Let's assume that one third of all 335i sales are financed or purchased for cash outright, it's a fair assumption right. That leaves the 335i selling as many Units as S4s that are both leased and financed.

I agree with the post above on the G selling as many units as the a/s4. In fact the G outsells the Audis every year. One could argue its due to the cheaper entry price but the G has never outsold the C class.

Sales do matter and the ATS is yet to prove itself. Everyone agrees the 328i is SUPERIOR to the ATS 2T, even the reviews attest to this. Some reviews have the ATS 3.6 taking the crown from the 335i, but given history, like the S4, this will prove futile as the benchmark status will be retained by the 3er.

Last edited by g37to335i; 12-12-2012 at 02:43 AM.
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  #491  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:46 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Let's assume that one third of all 335i sales are financed or purchased for cash outright, it's a fair assumption right. That leaves the 335i selling as many Units as S4s that are both leased and financed.

I agree with the post above on the G selling as many units as the a/s4. In fact the G outsells the Audis every year. One could argue its due to the cheaper entry price but the G has never outsold the C class.

Sales do matter and the ATS is yet to prove itself. Everyone agrees the 328i is SUPERIOR to the ATS 2T, even the reviews attest to this. Some reviews have the ATS 3.6 taking the crown from the 335i, but given history, like the S4, this will prove futile as the benchmark status will be retained by the 3er.
Good post, but there's a lot of overthinking going on here.

If someone can afford a $50,000-$60,000 car, they want a Mercedes Benz.

If someone can afford a $40,000-$50,000 car, they want a BMW.

A lot of it has to do with bigger salaries to an older demographic, a lot of it has to do with the perception of sportiness to a younger demographic. All this talk of engines and suspensions and Audi and Lexus is all minutiae. Audi is for those that can't afford the BMW, Lexus for those who can't afford the Mercedes. That's the big picture, that's what's driving 90% of the purchase decision.

BJ
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  #492  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:09 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Good post, but there's a lot of overthinking going on here.

If someone can afford a $50,000-$60,000 car, they want a Mercedes Benz.

If someone can afford a $40,000-$50,000 car, they want a BMW.

A lot of it has to do with bigger salaries to an older demographic, a lot of it has to do with the perception of sportiness to a younger demographic. All this talk of engines and suspensions and Audi and Lexus is all minutiae. Audi is for those that can't afford the BMW, Lexus for those who can't afford the Mercedes. That's the big picture, that's what's driving 90% of the purchase decision.

BJ
This is based on the assumption that everyone is driving the most expensive car they can afford. People who think that everyone drives the most expensive car they can afford tend to be driving the most expensive car they can afford.

According to JD Powers statistics Audi owners have a both a higher level of income and education than BMW drivers.

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Last edited by captainaudio; 12-12-2012 at 05:11 AM.
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  #493  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:28 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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The E46 did not have GM's "magic shocks"

The interior on the two I drove had rattles; the gloss black already had some scratches and it was a fingerprint and dust magnate.

The 2.5 liter engine is horrible. The 2.0 Turbo has yet to prove itself. The 3.6 is a decent engine but it is no Gem.

The Cue system doesn’t even get me started. It’s a POS and dangerous.

The German cars are more than badges hence why Cadillac is copy BMW not the other way around. This is not the first time Cadillac tried this remember the Catera? I give Cadillac great acclaim they built a good sports sedan, but don’t make it out to be God. I love that one video when the reporter is driving with the Professional driver and the reporter says "it is like an E46 M3" and the driver simply says "No... it not"

Don’t you think its funny there are no comparisons against the Audi A4 which is actually cheaper?
You're anti-Cadillac bias is evident. No one is saying the ATS is "God". It's a damn good car and competitive in it's class which is high praise. And you are not close to being fair when you say the 3.6 is a decent engine. All reviews say it's a terrific piece.

As far as ride goes, no one can win. Reviews and posters here have complained the new F30 is too soft and reviews say the ATS is too harsh while for years posters on the E90 forum complained of that car's harsh ride.
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  #494  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:45 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Let's assume that one third of all 335i sales are financed or purchased for cash outright, it's a fair assumption right. That leaves the 335i selling as many Units as S4s that are both leased and financed.

I agree with the post above on the G selling as many units as the a/s4. In fact the G outsells the Audis every year. One could argue its due to the cheaper entry price but the G has never outsold the C class.

Sales do matter and the ATS is yet to prove itself. Everyone agrees the 328i is SUPERIOR to the ATS 2T, even the reviews attest to this. Some reviews have the ATS 3.6 taking the crown from the 335i, but given history, like the S4, this will prove futile as the benchmark status will be retained by the 3er.
You are missing the bigger picture. It's not about beating the 3 series for the ATS. It's enough for it to be officially competitive with the best in this class. And kudo's to Cadillac, for it is! Cadillac has done a lot to increase their prestige and change their demographic over the last 10 years and even longer since the introduction of the STS then the CTS. These were not your rich grandfather's Cadillacs. Since then the CTS has improved and the V models have been world class. Now comes the ATS and soon the next generation CTS which will directly challenge the 5 series and E class. The fact that Cadillac can now play in this league is a great accomplishment.
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  #495  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:07 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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The S4 sells less than the 335i because it has a higher sticker price and costs more to lease, as Audi does not subsidize their leases like BMW does. Audi also treats their S lines as more exclusive and does not actively market them like BMW does their 3 Series lines. Most S4s are custom ordered according to the local dealers I've spoken with.

IMO, the S4 also falls between the 335i and the M3 anyway.
This.
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  #496  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:09 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
Let's assume that one third of all 335i sales are financed or purchased for cash outright, it's a fair assumption right. That leaves the 335i selling as many Units as S4s that are both leased and financed.

I agree with the post above on the G selling as many units as the a/s4. In fact the G outsells the Audis every year. One could argue its due to the cheaper entry price but the G has never outsold the C class.

Sales do matter and the ATS is yet to prove itself. Everyone agrees the 328i is SUPERIOR to the ATS 2T, even the reviews attest to this. Some reviews have the ATS 3.6 taking the crown from the 335i, but given history, like the S4, this will prove futile as the benchmark status will be retained by the 3er.
SUPERIOR? The gripe was with the 6 speed manual in the ATS which is being revised.
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  #497  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:16 AM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
You are missing the bigger picture. It's not about beating the 3 series for the ATS. It's enough for it to be officially competitive with the best in this class. And kudo's to Cadillac, for it is! Cadillac has done a lot to increase their prestige and change their demographic over the last 10 years and even longer since the introduction of the STS then the CTS. These were not your rich grandfather's Cadillacs. Since then the CTS has improved and the V models have been world class. Now comes the ATS and soon the next generation CTS which will directly challenge the 5 series and E class. The fact that Cadillac can now play in this league is a great accomplishment.
But that's just the point right, it's not enough to be just competitive with the best in class. The G did that with the first G35 so its not a high bar given Infiniti is a very young brand post the Nissan acquisition. This is why one has to look at not only being the best in class but if the public agrees, that's where sales come in.

Your views are interesting though since you deal with said public

On the 5 series, that's a tough market right there, the 5 and E are very competitive.
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  #498  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:18 AM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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SUPERIOR? The gripe was with the 6 speed manual in the ATS which is being revised.
You will not find a single review that puts the 2T ahead of the 328i, not one.
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  #499  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:53 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
You will not find a single review that puts the 2T ahead of the 328i, not one.
I never said there is one. You said the F30 is and I quote "SUPERIOR" which could not be farther from the truth. If it wasn't for the 6 speed manual (again being revised) the F30 would most likely come in second.

"Traditionally, one of the 3 Series' highlights has been its sharp, balanced handling and less compromised attitude. Ironically, it's here that the BMW is let down..."
"There's that much more aggression and drive to the ATS; that uncompromised driving experience that sadly no longer exists in the 3 Series..."
"That's why the ATS' faults are so frustrating. We may have gotten a car with a defect, but the six-speed manual gearbox in our tester was hugely disappointing..."
"Those two faults are so significant in the driving experience that the BMW hangs on to win this comparison by the skin of its teeth and keep its segment crown"
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...lac_ats_turbo/
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  #500  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:56 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
But that's just the point right, it's not enough to be just competitive with the best in class. The G did that with the first G35 so its not a high bar given Infiniti is a very young brand post the Nissan acquisition. This is why one has to look at not only being the best in class but if the public agrees, that's where sales come in.

Your views are interesting though since you deal with said public

On the 5 series, that's a tough market right there, the 5 and E are very competitive.
I disagree. The G showed that Infinity can make a car to compete with the alpha dog in the class. It elevated the image of the brand. The ATS does the same for Cadillac. Sure sales are very important but it's not important for the ATS to win it's class, just be a success. I don't know Cadillac's sales goal for the ATS in the next few years but if they sell 60K/year it will be a success. A4 sales are about 40K/year and 3 series about 100K. Infiniti will probably sell 60K this year the G series.
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