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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #501  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:59 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I never said there is one. You said the F30 is and I quote "SUPERIOR" which could not be farther from the truth. If it wasn't for the 6 speed manual (again being revised) the F30 would most likely come in second.

"Traditionally, one of the 3 Series' highlights has been its sharp, balanced handling and less compromised attitude. Ironically, it's here that the BMW is let down..."
"There's that much more aggression and drive to the ATS; that uncompromised driving experience that sadly no longer exists in the 3 Series..."
"That's why the ATS' faults are so frustrating. We may have gotten a car with a defect, but the six-speed manual gearbox in our tester was hugely disappointing..."
"Those two faults are so significant in the driving experience that the BMW hangs on to win this comparison by the skin of its teeth and keep its segment crown"
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...lac_ats_turbo/
What do Car and Driver and Road & Track have to say. Basically that the 3 series is a better all around car with a much better drivetrain. Both prefer the handling of the ATS. I seriously doubt either would change their ratings just because of an improved tranny in the ATS.
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  #502  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:00 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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The E46 did not have GM's "magic shocks"

The interior on the two I drove had rattles; the gloss black already had some scratches and it was a fingerprint and dust magnate.

The 2.5 liter engine is horrible. The 2.0 Turbo has yet to prove itself. The 3.6 is a decent engine but it is no Gem.

The Cue system doesn’t even get me started. It’s a POS and dangerous.

The German cars are more than badges hence why Cadillac is copy BMW not the other way around. This is not the first time Cadillac tried this remember the Catera? I give Cadillac great acclaim they built a good sports sedan, but don’t make it out to be God. I love that one video when the reporter is driving with the Professional driver and the reporter says "it is like an E46 M3" and the driver simply says "No... it not"

Don’t you think its funny there are no comparisons against the Audi A4 which is actually cheaper?
What is so horrible about the 2.5? The 3.6 is an excellent engine, one of the best in its class.
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  #503  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:07 AM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I never said there is one. You said the F30 is and I quote "SUPERIOR" which could not be farther from the truth. If it wasn't for the 6 speed manual (again being revised) the F30 would most likely come in second.

"Traditionally, one of the 3 Series' highlights has been its sharp, balanced handling and less compromised attitude. Ironically, it's here that the BMW is let down..."
"There's that much more aggression and drive to the ATS; that uncompromised driving experience that sadly no longer exists in the 3 Series..."
"That's why the ATS' faults are so frustrating. We may have gotten a car with a defect, but the six-speed manual gearbox in our tester was hugely disappointing..."
"Those two faults are so significant in the driving experience that the BMW hangs on to win this comparison by the skin of its teeth and keep its segment crown"
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...lac_ats_turbo/
That's just one review, see the gripes edmunds had with the 2T
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  #504  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:07 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
What do Car and Driver and Road & Track have to say. Basically that the 3 series is a better all around car with a much better drivetrain. Both prefer the handling of the ATS. I seriously doubt either would change their ratings just because of an improved tranny in the ATS.
Again mostly issues with the 6 speed manual and fuel economy of the 2.0T in the ATS. Besides the final score was VERY close between the two. Not to mention the acceleration numbers where by far the worst I have ever seen for the ATS and way behind even from what Cadillac is claiming for this car.

"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.) The ATS is unquestionably the more satisfying sports sedan of these two. This time around, however, it wasn’t BMW’s virtues that placed it on top so much as it was Cadillac’s shortcomings. If nothing changes in Bavaria and GM can produce a better engine, it’s easy to see the next round of this matchup going to Cadillac."

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
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  #505  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:10 AM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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I see your point Mscott, if the ATS does 60k a year that's good enough.
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  #506  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
I see your point Mscott, if the ATS does 60k a year that's good enough.
Is it really?

The title of this thread is "ATS takes aim at BMW", as if this Cadillac is a threat to the F30. It's not. If GM sells a few thousand good for them, but it's not the death-knell some predicted for the 3 Series.

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  #507  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:37 AM
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The sad thing is, although G37 is more powerful than my N52, and I see it all over where I live, it does not look like a car designed to be driven, rather to be polished daily.

And it shows, most G drivers I see are females, who drive like old Caddy owners. What is even more frightening to me is, with the F30, the 3 series is going that direction too.

It is a good business practice no doubt, but it frightens me nevertheless, that the entry level luxury brands are forced to cater to Camry and Accord drivers moving up.
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  #508  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:39 AM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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I don't think anyone here thinks the 3 series will be outsold by any one
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  #509  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The sad thing is, although G37 is more powerful than my N52, and I see it all over where I live, it does not look like a car designed to be driven, rather to be polished daily.

And it shows, most G drivers I see are females, who drive like old Caddy owners. What is even more frightening to me is, with the F30, the 3 series is going that direction too.

It is a good business practice no doubt, but it frightens me nevertheless, that the entry level luxury brands are forced to cater to Camry and Accord drivers moving up.
get over it
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  #510  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:53 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The sad thing is, although G37 is more powerful than my N52, and I see it all over where I live, it does not look like a car designed to be driven, rather to be polished daily.

And it shows, most G drivers I see are females, who drive like old Caddy owners. What is even more frightening to me is, with the F30, the 3 series is going that direction too.

It is a good business practice no doubt, but it frightens me nevertheless, that the entry level luxury brands are forced to cater to Camry and Accord drivers moving up.
That's why they are entry level luxury brands. Who are they going to cater to? Bentley owners moving down?

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  #511  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:54 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
Again mostly issues with the 6 speed manual and fuel economy of the 2.0T in the ATS. Besides the final score was VERY close between the two. Not to mention the acceleration numbers where by far the worst I have ever seen for the ATS and way behind even from what Cadillac is claiming for this car.

"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great—while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We’re convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.) The ATS is unquestionably the more satisfying sports sedan of these two. This time around, however, it wasn’t BMW’s virtues that placed it on top so much as it was Cadillac’s shortcomings. If nothing changes in Bavaria and GM can produce a better engine, it’s easy to see the next round of this matchup going to Cadillac."

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
Even with the improves MT, the engine is still way behind that of the BMW. I haven't heard that Cadillac is modifying the engine or the transmission gearing. And the poor tires on the BMW made it handle and brake poorly. They also said in that comparison that a recent test of the 335 with better tires showed sharper steering and better braking.
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  #512  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:57 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The sad thing is, although G37 is more powerful than my N52, and I see it all over where I live, it does not look like a car designed to be driven, rather to be polished daily.

And it shows, most G drivers I see are females, who drive like old Caddy owners. What is even more frightening to me is, with the F30, the 3 series is going that direction too.

It is a good business practice no doubt, but it frightens me nevertheless, that entry level luxury brands are forced to cater to Camry and Accord drivers moving up.
That's your extremely subjective take on the G37. In tests vs the E90, it was very competitive, just lacking some refinement. And in the recent CD comparo that used the G25, it's steering was rated the best, over Audi, Mercedes, Volvo and BMW.
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  #513  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:00 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
That's your extremely subjective take on the G37. In tests vs the E90, it was very competitive, just lacking some refinement. And in the recent CD comparo that used the G25, it's steering was rated the best, over Audi, Mercedes, Volvo and BMW.
Three years ago when I got my wife's 335d, the G37 was actually the car we had all but decided to get. Had we been comparing the G37 to a 328i back then, we'd got the G37. Perhaps we just are not refined consumers, so less refined cars are just fine for my wife and I.
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  #514  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:03 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by g37to335i View Post
I don't think anyone here thinks the 3 series will be outsold by any one
You don't have to be the top seller to be profitable. I don't think that GM in their wildest dreams expect to be the top seller in the segment but it is obviously a segment that BMW no longer has all to itself. Most of the 3 Series competitors (Lexus IS, Infinit G, Cadillac ATS, Mercedes C Class) were not in production when the 3 Series hit the scene. Having more manufacturers enter the segment is a two edged sword for BMW as it helped the market segment gain legitimacy and popularity and helped it grow. The fact that in spite of the fact that there are now several choices in the segment and that BMW 3 Series are increasing (as are the sales of the competitors models) attests to this. So BMW has a smaller share of a larger market and is selling more cars than ever.
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  #515  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:34 AM
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Personally I think the fact that Cadillac have so many enthusiasts talking about their new entry into the market means that they've succeeded in some measure.

The ATS has made waves, there's no doubt about it in my mind. I see conversations here and on other enthusiast sites (including Audi and MB sites) talking about this car. Will it succeed in the market? Who can say? But the fact that we among others are sitting up and taking note is significant. Perhaps it was just the statement that started this thread that Caddy were aiming at the 3-series that got our attention... but the fact that even after release the car itself is keeping our attention this much is also significant.

I do agree with the article quoted earlier; BMW's are softer now than they have ever been. The E9x was a good platform, but it was no E46 in terms of driving dynamics... and the E46 was not a patch on the E36 that was my first introduction to BMW (unfortunately not my car). I haven't driven an F30 yet so I can't comment on that... but the 1'er I am driving today is closer to the E36 than the E9x ever was (except perhaps in M3 form where the E9x platform really shone).

As for other cars out there, the S4 is still incredibly significant. A friend of mine works at the local Audi dealer and tells me that S4's move off his lot almost as quickly as they can get them in. The A4 is also a very significant seller, but without the sport package it's really not a great drivers car; the sport package changes it significantly but they are really hard to find and aren't ordered often. The G37 is also an incredible car as mentioned earlier; it lacks the refinement of the Germans but easily hangs with the E9x 335i for right around $40K (for the sport model with manual). BMW are also notoriously expensive on options which makes the car pricey, quickly... Infiniti's options are relatively low cost and functionally comparable. A loaded G37 can save big bucks over a similarly equipped 335i.

Mercedes... their C-Class doesn't really compete from my experience. I have no doubt it's a good car... solid as a bank vault construction, and a comfortable car to drive around in. But it's a Mercedes through and through and all that implies; sport is something that it doesn't do quite as well but luxury it takes the prize in this segment.
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  #516  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:40 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is online now
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
What is so horrible about the 2.5? The 3.6 is an excellent engine, one of the best in its class.
The 2.5L was clearly designed with the rental fleet in mind. I actually do not think it was intended for the ATS at all, and is just the RWD variant of the 2,5L in the BASE Malibu.

Show me where else in the entry level luxury segment you will find an NA 4 cylinder? Oh yeah, the TSX. That's it. The TSX is a FWD car which is just a Euro market Accord.
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  #517  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:43 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is online now
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Even with the improves MT, the engine is still way behind that of the BMW. I haven't heard that Cadillac is modifying the engine or the transmission gearing. And the poor tires on the BMW made it handle and brake poorly. They also said in that comparison that a recent test of the 335 with better tires showed sharper steering and better braking.
From what I heard the ATS 6mt is having a bushing redesign. It's not going to be all-transforming. They could not do a very pervasive change this late in the game. Otherwise they would say the manual will be a '14 model and really go through the transmission and make REAL changes.
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  #518  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Mercedes... their C-Class doesn't really compete from my experience. I have no doubt it's a good car... solid as a bank vault construction, and a comfortable car to drive around in. But it's a Mercedes through and through and all that implies; sport is something that it doesn't do quite as well but luxury it takes the prize in this segment.
I just spent a month with a Mercedes C Class rental from Hertz (actually 2 different ones as there was a problem with the first one). All of the driving was on the flat straight and relatively smooth roads of South Florida. It was a nice car but neither my wife or I thought it drove as good as our 335i (or the 750Li for that matter). I just did not feel as planted as the BMWs. As for luxury (keep in mind I am comparing a base C Class with a loaded E93) it was no more luxurious than the BMW and did not feel any more solid. What suprised me was how flimsy the trunk lid felt when it was closed. It just did not have that "Bank Vault" solid feel to it that I have become accustomed to with BMW, Lexus and Jaguar products.
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  #519  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:21 AM
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You don't have to be the top seller to be profitable. I don't think that GM in their wildest dreams expect to be the top seller in the segment but it is obviously a segment that BMW no longer has all to itself. Most of the 3 Series competitors (Lexus IS, Infinit G, Cadillac ATS, Mercedes C Class) were not in production when the 3 Series hit the scene. Having more manufacturers enter the segment is a two edged sword for BMW as it helped the market segment gain legitimacy and popularity and helped it grow. The fact that in spite of the fact that there are now several choices in the segment and that BMW 3 Series are increasing (as are the sales of the competitors models) attests to this. So BMW has a smaller share of a larger market and is selling more cars than ever.
When I bought my first BMW in 1979, a 320i, there was really nothing to compare it with in the price range. We traded in an Oldsmobile Cutlass that felt very unstable on the highway, and like it was floating all over the road which was typical of most cars during that period. I used to hate driving it from PA to Upstate NY for fear of our lives. By comparison, the BMW felt solid, planted, it handled great, and it was constructed safer than just about any other sedans on the road except for the more costly Mercedes offerings. There was a clear difference between my 320i and most other cars on the road.

Fast forward to today, and most cars feel stable driving at highway speeds, and their construction is safer regardless of price. As BJ points out, cars like BMW have made quite a market for themselves, largely due to buyers seeking status. But, the lines that used to separate BMW and the other mostly German brands have become much narrower and continue to diminish with each new generation of cars from most manufacturers.
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  #520  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:27 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Personally I think the fact that Cadillac have so many enthusiasts talking about their new entry into the market means that they've succeeded in some measure.

The ATS has made waves, there's no doubt about it in my mind. I see conversations here and on other enthusiast sites (including Audi and MB sites) talking about this car. Will it succeed in the market? Who can say? But the fact that we among others are sitting up and taking note is significant. Perhaps it was just the statement that started this thread that Caddy were aiming at the 3-series that got our attention... but the fact that even after release the car itself is keeping our attention this much is also significant.

I do agree with the article quoted earlier; BMW's are softer now than they have ever been. The E9x was a good platform, but it was no E46 in terms of driving dynamics... and the E46 was not a patch on the E36 that was my first introduction to BMW (unfortunately not my car). I haven't driven an F30 yet so I can't comment on that... but the 1'er I am driving today is closer to the E36 than the E9x ever was (except perhaps in M3 form where the E9x platform really shone).

As for other cars out there, the S4 is still incredibly significant. A friend of mine works at the local Audi dealer and tells me that S4's move off his lot almost as quickly as they can get them in. The A4 is also a very significant seller, but without the sport package it's really not a great drivers car; the sport package changes it significantly but they are really hard to find and aren't ordered often. The G37 is also an incredible car as mentioned earlier; it lacks the refinement of the Germans but easily hangs with the E9x 335i for right around $40K (for the sport model with manual). BMW are also notoriously expensive on options which makes the car pricey, quickly... Infiniti's options are relatively low cost and functionally comparable. A loaded G37 can save big bucks over a similarly equipped 335i.

Mercedes... their C-Class doesn't really compete from my experience. I have no doubt it's a good car... solid as a bank vault construction, and a comfortable car to drive around in. But it's a Mercedes through and through and all that implies; sport is something that it doesn't do quite as well but luxury it takes the prize in this segment.
Very good post. I agree about the 1 series and the E46 vs E90.
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  #521  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:31 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The 2.5L was clearly designed with the rental fleet in mind. I actually do not think it was intended for the ATS at all, and is just the RWD variant of the 2,5L in the BASE Malibu.

Show me where else in the entry level luxury segment you will find an NA 4 cylinder? Oh yeah, the TSX. That's it. The TSX is a FWD car which is just a Euro market Accord.
That doesn't make it a horrible engine, quite contrary it is a very good engine for what it is. If it helps to cater to a broader customer base (perhaps those that were considering the TSX/ILX, G25, C250 which all offer or recently offered similar power outputs) and sell more cars, then more power to GM.
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  #522  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:41 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Even with the improves MT, the engine is still way behind that of the BMW. I haven't heard that Cadillac is modifying the engine or the transmission gearing. And the poor tires on the BMW made it handle and brake poorly. They also said in that comparison that a recent test of the 335 with better tires showed sharper steering and better braking.
I am not saying the the N20 is not a better engine but it is not WAY ahead of the turbo four from GM. BMW is a motor company and it shows in every BMW you drive. However its not like the N20 revolutionized the turbo game. Audi/VW, Subaru, Mitsubishi have been making very good turbo fours for years. The truth is that the N20 and GM 2.0T are very, very close in most aspects, it is the 6 speed manual that was the major gripe in recent reviews of the ATS. GM listened to the critics and it is addressing the issues:
http://wot.motortrend.com/exclusive-...#axzz2ErPrNvJj

When Cadillac decided to offer a six-speed manual for the Cadillac ATS, it was a move we applauded wholeheartedly – until our recent Motor Trend comparison between the 2013 ATS Turbo and 2012 BMW 328i. During our head-to-head shootout, we found the Cadillac six-speed to be "hugely disappointing" and called it out as the main reason why the ATS lost out to the BMW.

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 12-12-2012 at 09:42 AM.
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  #523  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:20 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
That's why they are entry level luxury brands. Who are they going to cater to? Bentley owners moving down?

CA
Which was why I said it was a good business practice. Some of us however don't like the trend, but understand it, it is what it is.

Actually your above political analogy is quite fitting come to think of it.

Last edited by dtc100; 12-12-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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  #524  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:28 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I am not saying the the N20 is not a better engine but it is not WAY ahead of the turbo four from GM. BMW is a motor company and it shows in every BMW you drive. However its not like the N20 revolutionized the turbo game. Audi/VW, Subaru, Mitsubishi have been making very good turbo fours for years. The truth is that the N20 and GM 2.0T are very, very close in most aspects, it is the 6 speed manual that was the major gripe in recent reviews of the ATS. GM listened to the critics and it is addressing the issues:
http://wot.motortrend.com/exclusive-...#axzz2ErPrNvJj

When Cadillac decided to offer a six-speed manual for the Cadillac ATS, it was a move we applauded wholeheartedly – until our recent Motor Trend comparison between the 2013 ATS Turbo and 2012 BMW 328i. During our head-to-head shootout, we found the Cadillac six-speed to be "hugely disappointing" and called it out as the main reason why the ATS lost out to the BMW.
Besides, making the manual tranny the key of the comparison is missing the point anyway, when only a few will be sold. I think GM had that attitude, they never paid much attention to the manual option, thinking only a dozen would buy it.
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  #525  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
I am not saying the the N20 is not a better engine but it is not WAY ahead of the turbo four from GM. BMW is a motor company and it shows in every BMW you drive. However its not like the N20 revolutionized the turbo game. Audi/VW, Subaru, Mitsubishi have been making very good turbo fours for years. The truth is that the N20 and GM 2.0T are very, very close in most aspects, it is the 6 speed manual that was the major gripe in recent reviews of the ATS. GM listened to the critics and it is addressing the issues:
http://wot.motortrend.com/exclusive-...#axzz2ErPrNvJj

When Cadillac decided to offer a six-speed manual for the Cadillac ATS, it was a move we applauded wholeheartedly – until our recent Motor Trend comparison between the 2013 ATS Turbo and 2012 BMW 328i. During our head-to-head shootout, we found the Cadillac six-speed to be "hugely disappointing" and called it out as the main reason why the ATS lost out to the BMW.
The Caddy 2.0T might be a very good engine but the reviews say it is significantly lacking compared to the N20. It runs out of steam at 5500 rpm vs 7K for the BMW and does not seem to make it's rated power.

Here's what Car and Driver had to say:

"If the 2.0-liter does in fact make 272 horsepower at 5500 rpm, then it’s only at 5500 rpm. At 5499 and 5501, it feels more like 230. Redline is 7000 rpm, but there’s a notable softening beyond the power peak, and the engine starts sounding stressed well before that. Because the Cadillac is geared lower than the BMW—and it sounds so unpleasant at high rpm—we usually found ourselves a cog higher in the ATS than in the 328i through the twisty sections."

And here's what they say about the BMW N20:

"As opposed to the ATS’s brief lag, then rush of acceleration followed by a dramatic taper, the BMW’s 2.0-liter offers one long uninterrupted flow from the torque peak at 1250 rpm to redline. The fuel cutoff is past seven grand, and the engine sounds and feels like it’s aiming for nine."

Their rating for the powertrain (less the transmission rating) was 41 of 45 for the BMW and 33 of 45 for the Cadillac.

Road & Track rated the BMW engine 20 of 20 (the winner always gets max points) and the Cadillac 2.0T 15 points. And they say this about the ATS engine:

"Cadillac claims the ATS achieves peak torque at 1700 rpm (the BMW can call up full grunt as low as 1250 rpm), but you'd never know it. Launching the Caddy proved difficult, with the car either bogging or frittering power away through excessive wheelspin. And though there's power lurking in its little 4-banger, the ATS suffers from turbo lag, a congested-sounding exhaust note and a power curve that feels too compressed. All the urge seems concentrated between 2500 and 6000 rpm, where the more flexible BMW zings and sings anywhere from 1500 to 7000 rpm."

And this about the N20:

"For the base model 328i, the trump card is the Twin-Power 4-cylinder, whose daunting mission is to make drivers forget BMW's beloved inline-6.

This engine is high in the running for best 4-cylinder on the market. Not only is the BMW's four stronger, faster to rev and lusher-sounding than the Caddy's, it delivered nearly 20 percent better real-world fuel economy."
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