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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #526  
Old 12-12-2012, 11:37 AM
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Let's not forget the ATS is getting an 8spd auto next year.

To trash it in it's first year is like trashing the F30 cause it didn't offer AWD last year.
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  #527  
Old 12-12-2012, 11:54 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
That doesn't make it a horrible engine, quite contrary it is a very good engine for what it is. If it helps to cater to a broader customer base (perhaps those that were considering the TSX/ILX, G25, C250 which all offer or recently offered similar power outputs) and sell more cars, then more power to GM.
Did not say it is a horrible engine.

The G25 only lasted one year. The IS250 is low on power, but willing to bet it's smooth V-6 nature will not offend typical buyers. The TSX/ILX 2.4 is a very highly regarded 4 cylinder which revs out well and offers decent tq which Honda powerplants were not known for. Sorry, but GM NA 4 cylinders were usually behind the curve compared to Honda.

The 2.5 ATS has gotten just about no press and GM seems to like it that way. It allows GM to tout a lower MSRP and brag about it's lowest in class curb weight. But you factor in the MPG to power compared to the 2.0T, the price increase and weight increase the 2.0T and the ATS is not quite what it portrays with the hallmarks of the 2.5. If the 2.0T was the base engine and carried the 2.5L base price, the ATS would make a stronger case for itself.

Would not surprise me if the 2.5 is dropped within a year or two and kept only as a rental car powertrain.
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  #528  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:13 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The Caddy 2.0T might be a very good engine but the reviews say it is significantly lacking compared to the N20. It runs out of steam at 5500 rpm vs 7K for the BMW and does not seem to make it's rated power.

Here's what Car and Driver had to say:

"If the 2.0-liter does in fact make 272 horsepower at 5500 rpm, then it’s only at 5500 rpm. At 5499 and 5501, it feels more like 230. Redline is 7000 rpm, but there’s a notable softening beyond the power peak, and the engine starts sounding stressed well before that. Because the Cadillac is geared lower than the BMW—and it sounds so unpleasant at high rpm—we usually found ourselves a cog higher in the ATS than in the 328i through the twisty sections."

And here's what they say about the BMW N20:

"As opposed to the ATS’s brief lag, then rush of acceleration followed by a dramatic taper, the BMW’s 2.0-liter offers one long uninterrupted flow from the torque peak at 1250 rpm to redline. The fuel cutoff is past seven grand, and the engine sounds and feels like it’s aiming for nine."

Their rating for the powertrain (less the transmission rating) was 41 of 45 for the BMW and 33 of 45 for the Cadillac.

Road & Track rated the BMW engine 20 of 20 (the winner always gets max points) and the Cadillac 2.0T 15 points. And they say this about the ATS engine:

"Cadillac claims the ATS achieves peak torque at 1700 rpm (the BMW can call up full grunt as low as 1250 rpm), but you'd never know it. Launching the Caddy proved difficult, with the car either bogging or frittering power away through excessive wheelspin. And though there's power lurking in its little 4-banger, the ATS suffers from turbo lag, a congested-sounding exhaust note and a power curve that feels too compressed. All the urge seems concentrated between 2500 and 6000 rpm, where the more flexible BMW zings and sings anywhere from 1500 to 7000 rpm."

And this about the N20:

"For the base model 328i, the trump card is the Twin-Power 4-cylinder, whose daunting mission is to make drivers forget BMW's beloved inline-6.

This engine is high in the running for best 4-cylinder on the market. Not only is the BMW's four stronger, faster to rev and lusher-sounding than the Caddy's, it delivered nearly 20 percent better real-world fuel economy."
The N20 might be a bit smoother and deliver a little better fuel economy but otherwise they both do not sound very good and run out of steam rather fast, typical of 2.0T. Again they are very close, here is review of the Cadillac's 2.0T that is a little different then what you posted and just take a look at the dyno graphs to see how close they are.

"From low revs the ATS's turbo-4 delivers strong thrust, peaking at 252 lb-ft at 4,000 rpm, easily backing up its rated torque. Peak power of 239 hp at the wheels is right about what one would expect, given driveline loss. Unlike highly boosted four-bangers of yore, there's not an abrupt transition into boost with this engine. This is a civilized power delivery, smooth and fuss-free. The ATS is surprisingly quiet at full whack, too. There's not much personality in the way this engine sounds, but at least it's unobtrusive."

"It turns out these two modern turbo 2.0L DI fours are quite similar. The BMW ekes out a smidge more peak torque and holds its power better at high revs, but the general character is essentially interchangeable among the two engines. Neither are particularly rev-happy things, but there's solid meat in both torque curves where it's suitable for everyday driving."


http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...illac-ats.html


Bottom line is that the 2.0T is/was not the deal breaker, the 6 speed is culprit here.
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  #529  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:13 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Let's not forget the ATS is getting an 8spd auto next year.

To trash it in it's first year is like trashing the F30 cause it didn't offer AWD last year.
No one is trashing the ATS for it's automatic tranny. It's the relatively poor engine and it's MT which would be the choice of most enthusiasts including myself. I'll look at the ATS when my lease is up and if I'm satisfied with how these work and the price is good it will get a serious look but it had better be a very good price compared to a similar F30 for me to move from BMW. Or possibly the next A4 but I doubt it will be as sporty and Audi's reliability is a question for me. Just the fact that Cadillac is in this equation is good news.
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  #530  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:15 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The N20 might be a bit smoother and deliver a little better fuel economy but otherwise they both do not sound very good and run out of steam rather fast, typical of 2.0T. Again they are very close, here is review of the Cadillac's 2.0T that is a little different then what you posted and just take a look at the dyno graphs to see how close they are.

"From low revs the ATS's turbo-4 delivers strong thrust, peaking at 252 lb-ft at 4,000 rpm, easily backing up its rated torque. Peak power of 239 hp at the wheels is right about what one would expect, given driveline loss. Unlike highly boosted four-bangers of yore, there's not an abrupt transition into boost with this engine. This is a civilized power delivery, smooth and fuss-free. The ATS is surprisingly quiet at full whack, too. There's not much personality in the way this engine sounds, but at least it's unobtrusive."

"It turns out these two modern turbo 2.0L DI fours are quite similar. The BMW ekes out a smidge more peak torque and holds its power better at high revs, but the general character is essentially interchangeable among the two engines. Neither are particularly rev-happy things, but there's solid meat in both torque curves where it's suitable for everyday driving."


http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...illac-ats.html


Bottom line is that the 2.0T is/was not the deal breaker, the 6 speed is culprit here.
We can piss over all of these reviews but personally I trust Car and Driver as they value the same things I do and both they and Road & Track say the N20 loves to rev to it's redline which is significant. Edmunds to me is not a source I value. Same for Motor Trend. Bottom line is BMW consistently makes great engines and GM occasionally makes a great engine.

Last edited by Michael Schott; 12-12-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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  #531  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:23 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
We can piss over all of these reviews but personally I trust Car and Driver as they value the same things I do and both they and Road & Track say the N20 loves to rev to it's redline which is significant. Edmunds to me is not a source I value.
Agree to disagree.
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  #532  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:37 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
The N20 might be a bit smoother and deliver a little better fuel economy but otherwise they both do not sound very good and run out of steam rather fast, typical of 2.0T. Again they are very close, here is review of the Cadillac's 2.0T that is a little different then what you posted and just take a look at the dyno graphs to see how close they are.

"From low revs the ATS's turbo-4 delivers strong thrust, peaking at 252 lb-ft at 4,000 rpm, easily backing up its rated torque. Peak power of 239 hp at the wheels is right about what one would expect, given driveline loss. Unlike highly boosted four-bangers of yore, there's not an abrupt transition into boost with this engine. This is a civilized power delivery, smooth and fuss-free. The ATS is surprisingly quiet at full whack, too. There's not much personality in the way this engine sounds, but at least it's unobtrusive."

"It turns out these two modern turbo 2.0L DI fours are quite similar. The BMW ekes out a smidge more peak torque and holds its power better at high revs, but the general character is essentially interchangeable among the two engines. Neither are particularly rev-happy things, but there's solid meat in both torque curves where it's suitable for everyday driving."


http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...illac-ats.html


Bottom line is that the 2.0T is/was not the deal breaker, the 6 speed is culprit here.

The fun part is how the GM 2.0T is touted as being the more powerful of the two. If only BMW did not worry about the N55 being slated above the N20, it's rating could have been 270-275hp instead of 240. Maybe when there is a mid year refresh and the N55 gets a more accurate 320hp rating will BMW miraculously change the crank rating of the N20.
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  #533  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:41 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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Speaking of engines, both the 3 series engines made it to Wards 10 best. The 2T from Cadillac made it too but not the 3.6l, which should not be a surprise
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  #534  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:51 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The fun part is how the GM 2.0T is touted as being the more powerful of the two. If only BMW did not worry about the N55 being slated above the N20, it's rating could have been 270-275hp instead of 240. Maybe when there is a mid year refresh and the N55 gets a more accurate 320hp rating will BMW miraculously change the crank rating of the N20.
Who cares what they are rated by BMW. Both you and me know that the N20 is really underrated, more so than the N55. WHP is all that matters.
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  #535  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:53 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Speaking of engines, both the 3 series engines made it to Wards 10 best. The 2T from Cadillac made it too but not the 3.6l, which should not be a surprise
Actually, a small surprise since it made the list in 2008 and 2009.
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  #536  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:55 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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So did the G35 in 2007. Both engines relevance has waned over the years
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  #537  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:56 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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So did the G35 in 2007. Both engines relevance has waned over the years
2008 and 2009, rightfully so since it is an excellent engine.
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  #538  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:58 PM
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The people that don't like the F30 are going to use the reviews that favor their argument and the people that like teh f30 will use the review that support their argument. Who would have thought.

F30 is still the class leader. Next.
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  #539  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:59 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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2008 and 2009, rightfully so since it was an excellent engine.
I replaced a key word in your statement above
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  #540  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:00 PM
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I replaced a key word in your statement above
he probably bought his 328 a few weeks before the F30 came out. Dude has been bitter the past year on this site.
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  #541  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:04 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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he probably bought his 328 a few weeks before the F30 came out. Dude has been bitter the past year on this site.
You are the one that is bitter since the ATS came out.
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  #542  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:10 PM
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Chris90 Chris90 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
The fun part is how the GM 2.0T is touted as being the more powerful of the two. If only BMW did not worry about the N55 being slated above the N20, it's rating could have been 270-275hp instead of 240. Maybe when there is a mid year refresh and the N55 gets a more accurate 320hp rating will BMW miraculously change the crank rating of the N20.
I don't remember BMW ever accurately rating engines, or should I say, overrating them like other manufacturers.
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  #543  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:22 PM
g37to335i g37to335i is offline
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he probably bought his 328 a few weeks before the F30 came out. Dude has been bitter the past year on this site.
Makes sense, he should be happy the 2T made it though. The S4 engine (what is it called) is still on the list
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  #544  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:48 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Who cares what they are rated by BMW. Both you and me know that the N20 is really underrated, more so than the N55. WHP is all that matters.
I don't. I dyno most cars I own(as a baseline). But many people do go by what is told to them via marketing/advertising, and so many will think the ATS has more power.

But, so be it. I like being in on an inside secret. I like having more than I am supposed to, I always find a "sleeper" appealing.
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  #545  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:29 PM
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You're anti-Cadillac bias is evident. No one is saying the ATS is "God". It's a damn good car and competitive in it's class which is high praise. And you are not close to being fair when you say the 3.6 is a decent engine. All reviews say it's a terrific piece.

As far as ride goes, no one can win. Reviews and posters here have complained the new F30 is too soft and reviews say the ATS is too harsh while for years posters on the E90 forum complained of that car's harsh ride.
Anti-Cadillac I guess you would call me a heretic because I told you the world was round..lol

How many Cadillac’s have you owned? How about people you are close to? Have you driven the ATS?

Well I have owned three (CTS, Escalade, and DTS). My Dad has owned two (Escalade, and the New XTS). I have driven the ATS twice for a three days or longer. I like Cadillac’s hence why I have owned three.

On the 3.6 subject, I know one of car that the dealer replaced two brand new 3.6l engines. GM last year did a Massive Recall of the 3.6L V6 Engine. Granted all cars and engines have problems but your acclaim for a motor and car that you have only read about is misguided.

I think the ATS is a good car but I have driven it and am very familiar with the "wonderful Cue system". Just because I state the flaws with the car doesn't mean I hate Cadillac. I believe in being honest not sugar coating the world.
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  #546  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:55 PM
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Has anyone taken note of how much the transmission tunnel, torque converter if true to GM form, intrudes into the front passenger footwell? Very narrow. Maybe 12" - 14" of foot space.
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  #547  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
Let's not forget the ATS is getting an 8spd auto next year.

To trash it in it's first year is like trashing the F30 cause it didn't offer AWD last year.
When are you buying yours?

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  #548  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
The people that don't like the F30 are going to use the reviews that favor their argument and the people that like teh f30 will use the review that support their argument. Who would have thought.

F30 is still the class leader. Next.
Nah, we'll just keep indulging the F30 haters in their old E90's and E46's who want to use this forum to put us down and "get a message" to BMW about what they think the 3 Series should be instead of embracing what it's become. I expect some Audi or Mercedes Benz owners to come in here and try to take shots; it's unbelievable to me that our biggest detractors are fellow BMW owners.

BJ
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  #549  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:05 PM
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he probably bought his 328 a few weeks before the F30 came out. Dude has been bitter the past year on this site.
Yeah, you'd think he'd be The King Of The E9X Forum with all the 16 year olds and their $3,500 used cars bowing before his greatness. Hey, you want to drive the last year of a 7 year old design go knock yourself out; just don't come in here raining on our parade masquerading as a Cadillac enthusiast. Please.

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  #550  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:15 PM
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I don't remember BMW ever accurately rating engines, or should I say, overrating them like other manufacturers.
True, seems like BMW is always "lower" than expected?
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