2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.

Originally Posted by blueguydotcom

Ford released new software for the Fiesta and Focus DCTs. Not that it matters as I can't see getting an automatic.

Still hasn't solved the issues. It still sucks.

VW's DSG is still the best in the biz

Originally Posted by blueguydotcom

Interesting as to me the Cruze felt like a shoddy 1990's interior. Still holding out hope for the ATS.

When I had to shop for a third car with good fuel economy, I simply stumbled on the Cruze Eco. I was impressed by three things mainly the fluid MT, the highest mpg gas car, and the solid interior.

After I took it home, started to read the reviews, and they all talked about the same three strong points. So I was happy they felt the same.

On the other hand, so far all the good reviews about the F30 have not convinced me, and I am still unhappy with the loss of the N/A I6 and the signature steering feel.

Maybe once I have a chance to sit in one and drive it, I would agree with the reviews again.

Originally Posted by dtc100

When I had to shop for a third car with good fuel economy, I simply stumbled on the Cruze Eco. I was impressed by three things mainly the fluid MT, the highest mpg gas car, and the solid interior.

After I took it home, started to read the reviews, and they all talked about the same three strong points. So I was happy they felt the same.

On the other hand, so far all the good reviews about the F30 have not convinced me, and I am still unhappy with the loss of the N/A I6 and the signature steering feel.

Maybe once I have a chance to sit in one and drive it, I would agree with the reviews again.

There's still the 335i. It's not looking good for the 335i though with the numbers the 328i producing.

Originally Posted by calmwinds

There's still the 335i. It's not looking good for the 335i though with the numbers the 328i producing.

Easy, offer the performance package again, this time not just a 20 hp bump, but a set of slotted larger performance brakes.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

My only issues are that only rednecks drive Cadillacs and my local Cadillac dealer is apart of a sleazy Chevy dealer.

Same thing here and I think this is a widespread problem with Cadillac and until they address it will be a big obstacle in stealing BMW customers.

Even if I drove an ATS and absolutely loved the car, the dealer setup here would really make me hesitant to buy.

The ATS or ATS-V would have to be more raw or hardcore than the 3 series for me to want it, cause if they're just trying to do luxury sport, BMW does that better.

The CTS-V has that sweet V8, I don't think I'd be as excited about a V with a V6. I think the Corvette V8 is pretty light, so maybe they can use it.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Still hasn't solved the issues. It still sucks.

VW's DSG is still the best in the biz

As the owner of an audi with DSG it's hard to fathom how that transmission could be worse, short of being a true automatic.

Originally Posted by blueguydotcom

As the owner of an audi with DSG it's hard to fathom how that transmission could be worse, short of being a true automatic.

Gear changes are jerky, transmission has no idea what gear it wants to be in at all. I've driven both Fiesta and Focus with this. Both equally horrible.

Compared the VW DSG box in the GTI/A3/TT, Audi DSG in the S4, the VAG units are superior

Hey Pix, did the brand manager say anything about the pricing for the m-sport?

Originally Posted by dtc100

Easy, offer the performance package again, this time not just a 20 hp bump, but a set of slotted larger performance brakes.

Ah, the old ZHP. Still miss my 2003. My heart beats a little faster when I see one.

Originally Posted by blueguydotcom

Ah, the old ZHP. Still miss my 2003. My heart beats a little faster when I see one.

Didn't you complain non-stop about that car when you owned it?

Still driving mine.

I had the luxury of attending the CTS-V gen 2 launch event at Monticello Motorsports Park in 2008, right before the crash and the bankruptcy. No expense was spared. I still have the monogrammed jacket. Of course there was no charge. I'd seen Lexus charge as much as $300 for a similar event.

I spent most of the day driving regular CTS models, which I actually liked a lot. I'd like them better if they were at a discount to BMW/Audi/MB. The only serious knock I had was the interior and ergonomics, but I felt they got the driving dynamics right. The V6 I felt was more brutish than BMW's silky inline six, but with the 320i coming to the US market that advantage is gone at the sub-$50k price point. The manual shifter in the CTS was mounted laughably far back from the driver, as if they just poked the new tranny in where the auto used to go. It was slightly better in the CTS-V.

If the US had 100% import taxes, I'd drive a CTS.

Look at how high and close to the wheel Porsche is putting the shift knob in the 991:

Has anyone here ever even seen a Cadilac ATS let alone driven one?

As for the "badge" argument. Any company that is depending on their "image" to sell their product and does not consistantly deliver a quality product will not retain their "image" for long. It happened to Cadillac ("The Mark of Excellence") and it could easily happen to the ultimate driving machine. I would not spend my money on any car that I perceived to be an inferior product regardless of what its image or heritage is (or was). As they say in the music business "you are only as good as your last hit record". Athough I think it is unlikely that Cadillacs first attempt will beat BMW at its own game I will reserve my opinion until I have driven both an ATS and an F30.


Let's face it with the mentality of some of the people here it does not matter how the ATS turns out to be they will be still claim that it can not possibly be as good as a BMW.


CA

Originally Posted by justinnum1

Every manufactures goal is the 3series....i have been reading about car company "x" taking aim at the 3 sereis for 15 years now. Fact is SO FAR none of them have offered the driving experience the 3 series does.

Fixed,

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Fixed,

CA

There are a few models that came very close, and are selling for a lot less than the 3. Price is also a major factor.

Here are a few pictures from the Detroit Auto Show of the ATS







Generally I would say the ATS lacks some of the aggressiveness that the CTS has and it honestly felt a little cheap to me. As we all know, it really comes down to how the car drives but the car was a let down to me from reading about it vs. seeing it in person. The interior I just thought was awful....

There are a ton more pictures of all things non-BMW from the show here:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/bmw-photos...-Show-Non-BMW/

Things are changing a lot....the competition to me is unreal, with the Koreans bringing out cars like the Hyundai Elantra, Sonata, Kia Optima, etc.

The new Ford Fusion looks like an Aston Martin...

And it seems like cycles are turning faster...

I predict BMW is really going to start getting squeezed, and here's why...BMW is the last, decent sized truly independent automaker.

I think they are going to eventually succumb to cost cutting measures like we have already seen in the current 3 series..and now with the introduction of lines, it reduces their assembly cost (and reduces the customers' choice).

Each year it seems like competitors get closer and closer, and the Americans are producing some amazing vehicles compare to what they were making just 10 years ago.

They are stylish, reliable, and loaded with technology and features. But most of all, they are almost ALWAYS significantly cheaper, along with the Japanese like Acura and Infiniti.

Now Lexus is taking aim at producing sporty cars, and don't think they won't be able to do it..they might miss on their first attempt, but they are capable just like BMW is.

I just don't see how BMW is going to be able to continue producing the 3 series at a competitive price with their labor, costs and poor European economy....unless they outsource production to US/China.

The ultimate question is....if the Cadillacs, Infiniti's etc of the world produce a car that is 8/10ths the performance, significantly less expensive, and more reliable (which they are), is driving a BMW still a good value proposition?

I'm not so sure any longer.

Honestly, I'm actually happy that Cadillac is making this vehicle. If the interior fit and finish are up to world class levels and the driving dynamics are similar to the E46, then I'd say that this is the car that BMW enthusiasts were hoping that BMW would build. I'll say that alot of people would consider this as an excellent choice for US entry level luxury cars. I'd suspect to really move units, the price would have to be 2-3k less than the comparable 3 series with similar if not better levels of standard equipment. The tell-tale sign would be if the car drives like the E46/or a more refined E46 then Caddy will have a winner. I'm a BMW enthusiast but I am mindful of my wallet and as the 3 series is starting to climb up there in price, this seems to be an excellent alternative.

Originally Posted by tagheuer

The ultimate question is....if the Cadillacs, Infiniti's etc of the world produce a car that is 8/10ths the performance, significantly less expensive, and more reliable (which they are), is driving a BMW still a good value proposition?

I'm not so sure any longer.

I think this becomes a very complex question and it may have different answers depending on whether its coming from a car person or not. There's more to a car than just performance, reliability and cost. There's durability, "feel", safety, quality of materials, ...

For example, I sat in one of the Hyudai's at the mall and just couldn't stand the strong chemical smell of the interior. Sure that may wear off with time, but to me it speaks volumes about the quality of the materials used to build the car.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Has anyone here ever even seen a Cadilac ATS let alone driven one?

I have, but it was a development vehicle. Seemed pretty decent. Need to drive an F30 to compare really.

One thing I know for sure, is that this is a great time to be a car guy. I really can't remember a time when so many car companies are putting out some really nice designs and the choices in body sizes,shapes,powertrains,propulsion systems, etc have been so vast. There is such a wide mix of cars out there that we as consumers should be really happy. No too long ago your choice in this segment was 3 series or 3 series. Now we have previous joke car companies like Hyundai and Cadillac building RWD driver focused cars. If this pushes BMW to not rest on their laurels, ultimately we as BMW brand consumers win.

Originally Posted by dtc100

There are a few models that came very close, and are selling for a lot less than the 3. Price is also a major factor.

What cars are you referring to? This should make for an interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by tagheuer

Things are changing a lot....the competition to me is unreal, with the Koreans bringing out cars like the Hyundai Elantra, Sonata, Kia Optima, etc.

The new Ford Fusion looks like an Aston Martin...

And it seems like cycles are turning faster...

I predict BMW is really going to start getting squeezed, and here's why...BMW is the last, decent sized truly independent automaker.

I think they are going to eventually succumb to cost cutting measures like we have already seen in the current 3 series..and now with the introduction of lines, it reduces their assembly cost (and reduces the customers' choice).

Each year it seems like competitors get closer and closer, and the Americans are producing some amazing vehicles compare to what they were making just 10 years ago.

They are stylish, reliable, and loaded with technology and features. But most of all, they are almost ALWAYS significantly cheaper, along with the Japanese like Acura and Infiniti.

Now Lexus is taking aim at producing sporty cars, and don't think they won't be able to do it..they might miss on their first attempt, but they are capable just like BMW is.

I just don't see how BMW is going to be able to continue producing the 3 series at a competitive price with their labor, costs and poor European economy....unless they outsource production to US/China.

The ultimate question is....if the Cadillacs, Infiniti's etc of the world produce a car that is 8/10ths the performance, significantly less expensive, and more reliable (which they are), is driving a BMW still a good value proposition?

I'm not so sure any longer.

The answer is a certain segment will buy BMW because of the name and a certain segment like those on this board will buy BMW because of the driving experience, unless Cadillac has truly matched BMW with the ATS.

So far the G37 is a terrific car for the money but in every review is found to be lacking in refinement vs the 3 series. Also, it gets terrible fuel economy which is a negative in the era of $3.50 US gas.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

What cars are you referring to? This should make for an interesting discussion.

I'd say the one that is cheaper and gets close to the 3 is the Infiniti G37

The A4 is about the same price, but goes after a slightly different buyer

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

What cars are you referring to? This should make for an interesting discussion.

The G37 and the new Mustang GT come to mind.

Back when I was shopping for a car, the difference in cost was not so great between the G and 3. Today the monthly payments are about $100 apart.