2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.

Originally Posted by IndyMike

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BMWCCA did a comparison between the R20 and F30 328 and gave the nod to the VW, particularly in the performance and fun factor areas.

Not surprising since it's available with real summer performance rubber, without the commensurate RFT cinder block encumbrances that plague the BMW.

And it comes in both 3 and 5 door configuration.

However, the R does not lease very well if that's the preferred method of finance, and it might be too close to what hairy_scotsman currently is driving, if he's looking for a change of pace.

I'm a wagon freak (wife drives 2011 Touring) as well as a hot hatch advocate (MKV R32 is daily driver), and I'd opt for the R20 or the Focus ST, especially if one's a stickler for a manual since the F31 Sportwagen appears to be devoid of one when it arrives in NA.

Yeah, actually, the WRX wagon provides a good bit of interior space, which I'm going to need in coming years as I have two young boys who'll probably be taller than me in a couple of years....so I'm not looking to go smaller. Truthfully, if I felt like the new WRX was going to provide the same fun that my '02 has for the last 10 years, then I'd probably move right into a new one. It seems to have gone a bit soft though.

Since you own a 2011 Touring, let me ask you this: What's your impression of the Touring vs the sedan? Do you sacrifice much in terms of handling & acceleration?

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

We've had a mini parade of folks who get upset that the F30 (or any other mid-size luxury sports sedan) isn't as "nimble" as their GTI, Mini Cooper, WRX, etc. The bottom line is that it's a bigger car and it's not going to give that go-kart on rails feeling that is possible with a smaller car and sticky tires, regardless of handling, road-holding or acceleration.

I test drove a 528i and thought it was a boat. A buddy wanted me to go with him on a test drive of one with his wife, and 2nd time around I actually thought it drove really well for a car that size.

When I first got my F30 I thought it was huge. Now, five months and six thousand miles later it feels "normal" to me and I'd probably feel cramped if I re-drove my old ride, a 2004 B7 A4.

As far as adaptive suspension goes, it will not do anything for the steering feel, it's the same setup as the regular F30 with the exception of a tighter turning radius at low speeds to make parking much less of a chore. I personally find corners very engaging with AWD, but I've also been driving AWD cars now for over a decade.... corner entry/exit technique is slightly different with AWD vs. RWD. However, having driven the RWD and AWD F30 back to back a couple of times I don't exactly feel like I'm "missing out" by not having the RWD setup... and, the extra 150 or so lbs is probably only noticeable on the track. You do get phenomenal ability to launch the car with no wheel slip, it is great if you want to do a quick take-off for whatever reason.

People should get what they want, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.... if you get something bigger, it WILL feel bigger, at least initially. Some of these guys would whine that an M5, even though it destroys their current car in every way imaginable, is not "fun enough" because it's not a go-kart.

Yeah I understand all that. I know that the cars in question here are very capable and I know I'll give up a little bit of that rawness moving from the WRX to a bigger sedan (the WRX & F30 are actually comparable, with the F30 being about 325# heavier). I just want a new 4 or 5-door car of good quality, with a bit more room, that I can get excited about. ..not just something that performs well, but something I can connect with in terms of sound, feel, etc. Right now, as far as I can tell, the 3-series is my best fit, but in the back of my mind I keep waiting for something to come along and grab my attention so I know it's "the one", like when I first drove a WRX. There was no doubt after that as to what kind of car I'd be buying.

I am curious any of you considering a wagon or hot hatch, have you thought about the X1?

Originally Posted by hairy_scotsman

Yeah I understand all that. I know that the cars in question here are very capable and I know I'll give up a little bit of that rawness moving from the WRX to a bigger sedan. I just want a new 4 or 5-door car of good quality, with a bit more room, that I can get excited about. ..not just something that performs well, but something I can connect with in terms of sound, feel, etc. Right now, as far as I can tell, the 3-series is my best fit, but in the back of my mind I keep waiting for something to come along and grab my attention so I know it's "the one", like when I first drove a WRX. There was no doubt after that as to what kind of car I'd be buying.

If you are looking for a five door your options are extremely limited. Have you driven an F30 with the sport package? I test drove an F30 with sport and compared it to one without, back when I was getting ready to order and the difference of the sports suspension and seats made the car feel more fun to drive than the bigger engine.

In other words, F30 328i sport was more fun than F30 335i base model.

If you want a comfy ride when chauffeuring the family around and then the ability to have a bruiser when you're in the mood for it, get the adaptive suspension setup.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Of course you don't care about the fact E90 used to sell 17k a month. Facts never get in your way

As far as ATS, it is unlikely I will get an ATS with all the chrome finish and the price stays high. If they offer a blacked out option and begin to match others with incentives, you will be able to laugh at me.

Until then, F30 is still about the only option I can accept at this point. I am not holding my breath Q50 will tickle me. It is likely it will go beyond what F30 did to be more comforting and luxurious.

Being a self proclaimed financial know how, you should have leased a 535, it is a luxury car with executive status, and comfortable with some real power to haul your family around town with style, to show off your watches. Doing so while paying less than your lowly 328i. What a disastrous financial decision.

No one shows off Rolex watches in an entry level car, people may think they are knock offs, a real disservice of the Rolex name. While a 5 is a minimum, a 7 is preferred. For that, last year about the time you leased your entry level luxury pretender, some members here with true financial whiz were able to get a lease deal for certain 7 series at almost your L328i payment. Now that is a good financial move, your Rolex deserves no less.

Facts?

E90 used to sell 17k a month. Yeah, when it was a complete model line of sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon(maybe 335D too). What did it sell the first year or so of the transition like we now have with the F30?

How many times are people going to have to repeat themselves?

No one knows what the F30 is actually going to sell in a month. Not until it's a full line up again, Xdrives(finally trickling out now), wagons, coupes, convertibles, even diesels.

If at that point, similar date to similar dates, the F30 is losing out to the E90, post it 100x-because it will be fact.

Right now there is no complete data to compare accurately.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Facts?

E90 used to sell 17k a month. Yeah, when it was a complete model line of sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon(maybe 335D too). What did it sell the first year or so of the transition like we now have with the F30?

How many times are people going to have to repeat themselves?

No one knows what the F30 is actually going to sell in a month. Not until it's a full line up again, Xdrives(finally trickling out now), wagons, coupes, convertibles, even diesels.

If at that point, similar date to similar dates, the F30 is losing out to the E90, post it 100x-because it will be fact.

Right now there is no complete data to compare accurately.

How about you leave me and BJ alone?

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Facts?

E90 used to sell 17k a month. Yeah, when it was a complete model line of sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon(maybe 335D too). What did it sell the first year or so of the transition like we now have with the F30?

How many times are people going to have to repeat themselves?

No one knows what the F30 is actually going to sell in a month. Not until it's a full line up again, Xdrives(finally trickling out now), wagons, coupes, convertibles, even diesels.

If at that point, similar date to similar dates, the F30 is losing out to the E90, post it 100x-because it will be fact.

Right now there is no complete data to compare accurately.

That is a very good point. I am considering what I will get to replace my E93 and it certainly will not be another E93 which will be for all practical purposes an identical car that will be replaced by the F33 when it is a few months old. Those of us who drive coupes and convertibles n are driving the latest model 3 Series. I am in no particularly hurry since the E93 is in perfect condition and I don't have to worry about a lease ending. Unless something that I absolutely have to have hits the market in the next few months I intend to wait until the 4 Series is released, and will possibly wait for the new M4 before I make a decision.

CA

Originally Posted by dtc100

How about you leave me and BJ alone?

I can post wherever, just as you can too, remember?

(only exception is the E90 vs F30 thread which in case you have not noticed I am done with and stated I was done with lol)

Originally Posted by captainaudio

That is a very good point. I am considering what I will get to replace my E93 and it certainly will not be another E93 which will be for all practical purposes an identical car that will be replaced by the F33 when it is a few months old. Those of us who drive coupes and convertibles n are driving the latest model 3 Series. I am in no particularly hurry since the E93 is in perfect condition and I don't have to worry about a lease ending. Unless something that I absolutely have to have hits the market in the next few months I intend to wait until the 4 Series is released, and will possibly wait for the new M4 before I make a decision.

CA

If I had to buy a new convertible right now, man the new Boxster looks amazing, and should drive amazing too(I have yet to do so). My only issue is buying one close to the base price. It seems like you would have to order one as dealers will want to carry cars with $10-15-20k in options.

I can never buy another convertible.

My Roadster is not worth anything. So I feel like I am going to keep it a LONG time, it does a lot of things so right. Unless I get to the point of being flat out wealthy, I don't see a need for more than one open top cars for myself(aside from a Miata to use as a Spec car).

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

If you are looking for a five door your options are extremely limited.

Heh...don't I know it. I'm not exclusively looking for 5-doors. It's just that my lifestyle fits a 5-door a bit better. My wife & I are mountain bikers, so we'll have a roof rack, etc, & that seems to just work better with a wagon.

Have you driven an F30 with the sport package? I test drove an F30 with sport and compared it to one without, back when I was getting ready to order and the difference of the sports suspension and seats made the car feel more fun to drive than the bigger engine.

In other words, F30 328i sport was more fun than F30 335i base model.

If you want a comfy ride when chauffeuring the family around and then the ability to have a bruiser when you're in the mood for it, get the adaptive suspension setup.

I get confused about all the variations of options, etc. by "sport package" do you mean the Sport Line? I did drive a 328i Sport Line and I liked it. I'm a stick guy, but I preferred the shift paddle automatic over the manual due to the manual's light clutch pedal. I like to feel the clutch a bit more. I guess it makes me feel more connected. Like you, I think I like the 328 over the 335, maybe due to a weight difference & the price difference doesn't hurt either.

While I have not driven the X, I really do love my AWD. Do you feel like there's a big difference in handling between the X and the RWD?

Originally Posted by hairy_scotsman

Heh...don't I know it. I'm not exclusively looking for 5-doors. It's just that my lifestyle fits a 5-door a bit better. My wife & I are mountain bikers, so we'll have a roof rack, etc, & that seems to just work better with a wagon.



I get confused about all the variations of options, etc. by "sport package" do you mean the Sport Line? I did drive a 328i Sport Line and I liked it. I'm a stick guy, but I preferred the shift paddle automatic over the manual due to the manual's light clutch pedal. I like to feel the clutch a bit more. I guess it makes me feel more connected. Like you, I think I like the 328 over the 335, maybe due to a weight difference & the price difference doesn't hurt either.

While I have not driven the X, I really do love my AWD. Do you feel like there's a big difference in handling between the X and the RWD?

We had a Saabaru(Saab 9-2x), that was such a great car. Improved looks with the Saab front end, Saab dealer experience, more sound deadening-bit more lux, Subie reliability and WRX aftermarket. I modded ours too(It was my father's but I chipped in with him so I had plenty of use of it), gold 18's with 245 summer tires, swapped in a new OEM two tone leather interior, etc. Sold it to a good friend of mine.

Besides the Golf R, I would also look at the Focus ST and the MS3 unless you are deadset against FWD.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

unless you are deadset against FWD.

Yep, I am.

Originally Posted by dtc100

I am curious any of you considering a wagon or hot hatch, have you thought about the X1?

I'm thinking about the X1 once my lease ends as the price is very attractive. Downside is no MT and I've read that throttle lag is a problem but I haven't had a test drive yet. Otherwise the E90 chassis as we know is great and the AWD versions have hydraulic steering. The extra room would be nice as well.

Originally Posted by hairy_scotsman

Yep, I am.

Another outside the box choice is the Volvo S60, there is the T-5 AWD and T-6 AWD(or T-6 R). I personally believe in test driving as many options as possible.

Originally Posted by hairy_scotsman

Since you own a 2011 Touring, let me ask you this: What's your impression of the Touring vs the sedan? Do you sacrifice much in terms of handling & acceleration?

The wagon is a bit heavier than the sedan so it's not as lithe, but as long as you have the M Sport or Sport package there's not much give up between the two.

But it has much more utility (especially with the optional roof rack) and exclusivity associated with it (very rarely see either an E46 or E91 Touring in the mid west), and the panoramic moonroof is also exclusive to the Sportwagen.

And if you're SUV/SAV averse like my frau and I there's not many other choices.

Plus in my opinion it's also generally better looking than the sedan (at least against the E90).

Judging by the preliminary pictures it would appear that the trend extends to the F series as well.

Originally Posted by IndyMike

Plus in my opinion it's also generally better looking than the sedan

Look is highly subjective, but in the US, wagons suffer from serious image problem, unfairly or not. Hot hatches have a come back, so may be wagons will too, but not yet and may not be for a while.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Look is highly subjective, but in the US, wagons suffer from serious image problem, unfairly or not. Hot hatches have a come back, so may be wagons will too, but not yet and may not be for a while.

I'd venture a guess that with the continued proliferation of trucklet based utility vehicles and GT crossovers the wagon will probably be gone from NA's (if not AG's) lineup within a dozen years.

Like hatches NA never, ever really actively promoted it.

Plus another nail in its coffin is the stigma attached to the term 'station wagon'. It's an American icon of the 60's and 70's that the current generation tends to run away from, so as troglodytes like me die off the market will only continue to dwindle.

Fortunately, European's still gravitate towards Tourings so as long as AG produces them there's always hope for the NA market.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Look is highly subjective, but in the US, wagons suffer from serious image problem, unfairly or not. Hot hatches have a come back, so may be wagons will too, but not yet and may not be for a while.

I'll take a wagon any day if they make 'em like this: