2013 Cadillac ATS GM Takes Aim at BMW. No, Seriously.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

There was only one at the NAIAS and it was on a rotating platform surrounded by a rope. I don't think it's production ready yet.

I meant the trunk is small.

Originally Posted by dtc100

I meant the trunk is small.

You asked in anyone has had a chance to drive one yet and that's where I based my response. I don't think there have been any ATS's available to the press.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You asked in anyone has had a chance to drive one yet and that's where I based my response. I don't think there have been any ATS's available to the press.

I knew what you meant. I wanted to make a correction.

It is interesting no "first drive" events have happened. I thought such events should occur before, or at least at the same time of the official unveiling.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I'm not sure how long, but Porsche has been using electric power steering for a while.

The new 911 (2012) is the first one to use an EPS system. Porsche may have been using EHPS (Electro-Hydraulic Power Steering) which is an HPS gear where the Power Steering Pump is controlled by an Electric Motor instead of being attached to the engine.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Just watched a walkaround video, the back seats are tight, and the truck is small, very small.

This car better has some real fun driving dynamics. Yet no one has a chance to drive it so far?

I've driven a few ATS IVERs (that's one of GM's pre-production phases) and they are for the most part fun to fling about. The 2.0T with a 6-Speed Manual is probably the best "driver's car" of the bunch.

The back seat is smaller than the E90, and the trunk while deep isn't wide.

Obviously we'll have to see how it drives, but I was pretty impressed with what I saw of the ATS at the 2012 NAIAS. In general I am not a fan of red, so I'd like to also see how the ATS looks in Silver with a dark leather interior and silver/brushed metal trim. I think the CTS looks best in silver and I appreciate that Cadillac styling is distinctive.

I too hope they are serious about using the e46 as their benchmark for handling. I really liked the e46 driving dynamics more than the e90. I like my e90 for a lot of reasons, but I have had too many issues related to tires and handling/ride. Half the time I can't tell if my suspension is screwed, my tires worn funny (again), or some combination of both. I really feel like us early e90 owners were basically beta testers for unproven suspension and tire tech. Its hard to believe considering the e90 was probably in development for years before it came out in 2005/6.

Also, I'm not sure why everyone is so down on the Cadillac interiors vs BMW. Late model CTS and SRX interiors are very nice. (The 2008 pre-refresh CTS was crap). IMHO BMW interiors have never been anything special. I appreciate the simplicity of my e90's layout, but the durability has been surprisingly bad. My seat bolsters have fallen apart twice now in 5 years. And although the "soft touch" material feels nicer than hard plastic, multiple panels have peeled and have been replaced.

MB and Audi beat BMW on interiors in almost all aspects. Go sit in a new A6 after any BMW. The BMW interior is pretty nice, but the A6 is on another level.

asus389: Definitely agree with all your points there. Though I never did own an E9x, I have plenty of friends who do. They've all had similar complaints and problems. I thought the driving dynamics of the E46 were far better as well, and the interior was a really nice place to spend time.

Of course, the interior is the part that would most put me off a car. It's the part I look at all the time. Now here, Audi still has the upper hand in my opinion. While the F30 interior is really nice and a definite step up from the E90, I still think it strikes me as a little "stark". I have to see it in person though. I never much appreciated the E9x interior because it was too "flat". My little 1'er though has an an interior that to all intents and purposes is a great evolution of the E46 interior. It really bears far more resemblance to that than the E9x.

I'll be interested to see the ATS interior in person too. If they have the "feel" of the cabin right then the details tend to just disappear. However, GM does have a bad habit of making the details "pop", which tends to make one feel the interior is vying for your attention (witness the Camaro of the last few years... YUCK!) and thus tends to pull you out of the "feel".

Don't know if you all noticed, the ATS interior is one of those "capacitive touch" center stacks like "MyFord Touch" is. I'm personally not a fan of it, I'd much rather had the buttons like the F30 has, which to me is also an improvement of the iDrive only type interior of my mom's E60.

It will be a pain to keep clean since the capacitive surface is a piano black type material.

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

Don't know if you all noticed, the ATS interior is one of those "capacitive touch" center stacks like "MyFord Touch" is. I'm personally not a fan of it, I'd much rather had the buttons like the F30 has, which to me is also an improvement of the iDrive only type interior of my mom's E60.

It will be a pain to keep clean since the capacitive surface is a piano black type material.

Agreed. I think the ATS has the "CUE" system which appears to be at least partially controllable via steering wheel buttons. But in general I haven't been a fan of touch screens in cars because they require you to actually be looking at them to use them which IMHO is distracting. Buttons/knobs/wheels/etc... you can develop muscle memory for and they give you tactile feedback. CUE I think is supposed to have haptic feedback, so I'm hopeful at least on this front.

Was in an ATS today. CUE does have haptic feedback, but it's still not the same thing as an actual button.

Buttons are much more satisfying to press!

check out this article:some of the interior fitment is very,well, GM.
The ATS Lands a Few Punches; Gets Knocked Out

I'm going to say it isn't fair to judge the show car in regards to fit and finish.

The show car is an updated IVER, basically a car built by pre-production folks in Warren on a mock assembly line (about 6 to 9 months ago no less). It doesn't use any of the final parts (some parts in that car came off of pre-production tooling) they attempted to make it look like a production model (by ripping it apart and manually updating things) but if you really look you'll see those issues.

GM is REALLY bad about stuff like that. This is why when they put a car up on the stands they don't really let you get near it.

A GM car isn't fit and finish ready until about 3 months before they roll off the line for full production. You'll notice the Malibu Eco on the floor suffered the same issues.

Originally Posted by thumper_330

I found that eyebrow-raising as well. The very fact that BMW continues to espouse that people don't need an LSD while enthusiasts keep crying for one means that some enthusiasts are going to look here immediately. I must admit, that's still the one thing I don't like about BMW's... hell even my Subaru had an LSD in the back.

Originally Posted by Bemo

If this is indeed true and the ATS manages to deliver E46-like handling and driving dynamics, a round of cold showers will be in order for the F30 engineering team and the dreaded electric steering. BMW's equation makes sense as the company is run by bean-counters. Build luxury cars that apply to a larger segment of the population and you'll sell more cars. The enthusiasts will have to move over to the M segment if they wish to stay with the marque. To quote Mark Miller, M stands for Motorsport and Money...the money that will be needed to maintain an M BMW. So the next logical move for us all? Drive a really old BMW, or an M model or to hell with BMWs!

You guys hit the nail on the head...if BMW goes the nice riding bling-bling comfy luxury & technology route...it is another BRAND for me or buy older pre F-30 bimmers and put money into them, restore & mod...at least if you do that to an E46, you will have a great "drivers car" with great feel.
Enough of these sissy girly-man soft cars, and why BMW thinks they have to all of a sudden follow MB, Audi & Lexus, is beyond me

Lets keep crying before we even drive the car LMFAO


Very sad

and 16, why do you keep bringing this stuff up if you drove the car? All these posts you write make me think you never really did test drive the cars.

Originally Posted by 16n69

Enough of these sissy girly-man soft cars, and why BMW thinks they have to all of a sudden follow MB, Audi & Lexus, is beyond me

Because BMW is primarily in business to make money and Americans associate quality with luxury and comfort, not road feel and track prowess.

If you really want a pure drivers car get an Evo or STI, probably not soft or luxurious at all.

Originally Posted by justinnum1

Lets keep crying before we even drive the car LMFAO


Very sad

and 16, why do you keep bringing this stuff up if you drove the car? All these posts you write make me think you never really did test drive the cars.

Because...though I found them to be BETTER than I excpected...STILL they are lacking when compared to bimmers past, no denying....PERIOD!!!
And will the bling-bling loving "my wife will just love this pretty new girly interior" ...crowd has been longing for BMW to go the way of MB, AUDI & LEXUS...many of use enthusiasts "mourn" this direction by BMW

But YES, it could still be worse...AND will be the next time (redesign) if the trend continues.
Car still looks like funky crap compared to the E46 and E9X M3.

Guess I am NOT alone in my views...MANY others on M3post.com and other BMW forums feel the SAME...FUGLY F30 HOOD LINE ...craps up the whole car design...HUGE & unnecessary FAIL>>>Audi,MB & Porsche found a way to satisfy Euro pedestrian safety without a hideous line cutting across the hood & BMW roundel far too low on front because of it!



JoeyO
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"While I dislike the headlights-grille combo and the small size of the headlights, my biggest gripe with the new F30 design is the bold horizontal line on the front hood. Not only does it push the BMW logo too close to the grille, but it contrasts all the other lines on the car. It's hard for my eyes to ignore it. Sort of like a turd in a punch bowl :-)

1) I don't necessarily buy the argument that it's there because of European pedestrian impact laws, because Audi just redesigned their 2013 A4 front and it doesn't have a plastic hood portion. Also, the VW Jetta and Golf are fairly new designs and they do not have a plastic hood portion either. See Audi below.

2) Plus, even if it was mandatory by law, I feel there are much better ways to design better hood lines. For instance, Lamborghini does an excellent job in handling their front line. They make it look like it was intentially designed to blend with the rest of the vehicle. Notice how the line jogs around the Lambo logo. Lambo treats the line as an integral part of the car's design, unlike BMW which treats it like an afterthought. Lambo's hood line has a slight bend which matches the rest of the front end, unlike BMW which looks like they used a perfectly straight ruler.

IMO, another hood design which deals with the front line issue OK is the Volvo S40. With the Volvo, the hood lines match up with the other lines of the car nicely. Just my 2 cents.

By the way, if I had to pick the best front end design in the current BMW line-up I'd pick the X3. It's very traditional, clean, bold, and looks modern. :-)"

Originally Posted by 16n69

Guess I am NOT alone in my views...MANY others on M3post.com and other BMW forums feel the SAME...FUGLY F30 HOOD LINE ...craps up the whole car design...HUGE & unnecessary FAIL>>>Audi,MB & Porsche found a way to satisfy Euro pedestrian safety without a hideous line cutting across the hood & BMW roundel far too low on front because of it!



JoeyO
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Drives: silver car
Join Date: Jan 2012
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"While I dislike the headlights-grille combo and the small size of the headlights, my biggest gripe with the new F30 design is the bold horizontal line on the front hood. Not only does it push the BMW logo too close to the grille, but it contrasts all the other lines on the car. It's hard for my eyes to ignore it. Sort of like a turd in a punch bowl :-)

1) I don't necessarily buy the argument that it's there because of European pedestrian impact laws, because Audi just redesigned their 2013 A4 front and it doesn't have a plastic hood portion. Also, the VW Jetta and Golf are fairly new designs and they do not have a plastic hood portion either. See Audi below.

2) Plus, even if it was mandatory by law, I feel there are much better ways to design better hood lines. For instance, Lamborghini does an excellent job in handling their front line. They make it look like it was intentially designed to blend with the rest of the vehicle. Notice how the line jogs around the Lambo logo. Lambo treats the line as an integral part of the car's design, unlike BMW which treats it like an afterthought. Lambo's hood line has a slight bend which matches the rest of the front end, unlike BMW which looks like they used a perfectly straight ruler.

IMO, another hood design which deals with the front line issue OK is the Volvo S40. With the Volvo, the hood lines match up with the other lines of the car nicely. Just my 2 cents.

By the way, if I had to pick the best front end design in the current BMW line-up I'd pick the X3. It's very traditional, clean, bold, and looks modern. :-)"

You're a one trick pony aren't you.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You're a one trick pony aren't you.

My good man, I do not quite know what you mean
No tricks here and I have been called a "stud" but never a pony

Caddy's Super Bowl ATS ad squarely aimed at the 3:

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...r-bowl-ad.html

can't wait to test drive one...magnetic ride control, limited slip differential, FE3 suspension with Brembo brakes....bring it on Caddy!

I love bimmers but a healthy competition will keep both marques on their toes and, ultimately, benefit all of us!

Originally Posted by Bemo

can't wait to test drive one...magnetic ride control, limited slip differential, FE3 suspension with Brembo brakes....bring it on Caddy!

I love bimmers but a healthy competition will keep both marques on their toes and, ultimately, benefit all of us!

I drove a CTS-V with the magnetic ride technology. It was very impressive and light years ahead of the OEM shocks on my 2007 335i.

CA

Originally Posted by Bemo

can't wait to test drive one...magnetic ride control, limited slip differential, FE3 suspension with Brembo brakes....bring it on Caddy!

I'm not holding my breath. Unless they have a magician on board, they are probably going to have to cut corners somewhere. Unless BMW has REALLY messed up, which I really don't think to be the case. If that were the case, the trade rags would have beaten them to pulp.

Originally Posted by Bemo

...but a healthy competition will keep both marques on their toes and, ultimately, benefit all of us!

+1.

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

I'm not holding my breath. Unless they have a magician on board, they are probably going to have to cut corners somewhere. Unless BMW has REALLY messed up, which I really don't think to be the case. If that were the case, the trade rags would have beaten them to pulp.

I am not holding my breath either, but GM's recent records on performance cars are pretty good. Even the cheap Cruze Eco has shown some of that effort.

At least their Super Bowl ad received good feedback, stood out among the stupid bling bling car commercials:

http://wot.motortrend.com/record-bre...ed-166939.html

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

I'm not holding my breath. Unless they have a magician on board, they are probably going to have to cut corners somewhere. Unless BMW has REALLY messed up, which I really don't think to be the case. If that were the case, the trade rags would have beaten them to pulp.



+1.

The corners cut will be getting it all ready for July of this year when they start building them.

I'm pretty sure the kinks will be worked out by the second model year. Which is typical of GM because they REFUSE to wait 3-6 months to get it right the first time.

I'm serious in that it's good BMW doesn't say anything really about the next gen "whatever" until just before it goes on sale. That way if you have a 6 month delay no one really knows. GM comes out the gate 9-12 months before the car is actually on sale and starts talking about when it's coming out. In 9 months you can run into some serious dev problems that delay a program.

The "waiting" method is better. For example we've seen the F30 and have no timing even on the Wagon (let alone the Coupe) both of which we KNOW are coming!