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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #226  
Old 09-06-2012, 03:07 PM
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I did have one guy get mean with me on the phone then he saw my parent linked account which happened to be a premiere account and he changed his tude on the fly
Yeah, well, we do live in a plutocracy now, so go figure.
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  #227  
Old 09-06-2012, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamdog View Post
What about us frugal guys?

I bought my car 5 years ago. It is all paid off. I will keep it till it is no longer cost effective to keep it running, just as I did with all of my other cars.

In the 4 years it took to pay off the car, I spent more per year on trips and vacations. It is just a matter of setting your own priorities.

I fall in love with my cars and never want to get rid of them, and, basically, only do so when they cost more to keep up than they are worth.

In the year my car has been off warranty and maintenance, I have spent less than one month's lease payment on this years maintenance.
What you're doing is fine, Kam, it's awesome in fact.

I just don't want to hear the two lease stereotypes anymore:

1. "Leasing puts you in a car you can't afford. Buyers are the ones who can afford it."

2. "People who lease are foolish, wasting money, we need to teach them how stupid they are."

You purchase-it-keep-it types stop hitting us with the leasing-is-bad stereotypes, we'll stop defending ourselves and pointing out that you should go full-cheapskate and kill your dog.

BJ
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  #228  
Old 09-06-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
$50k buys a nice 997, I figured that's the equivalent of buying a 3 series in terms of cost, if not actual payments. Maintenance will be a lot higher, but depreciation will be a lot lower (maybe).
You could be right, there are some nice deals for around 55k on cars.com with less than 35k miles.

Like this one for example.

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...nal&listType=1

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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Well unfortunately Tromix is sold out on order slots until 2015, but there are plenty of other companies out there that mod the Saiga 12G.
Just have to find the right person.
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Last edited by windsor027; 09-06-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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  #229  
Old 09-06-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Technic View Post

I do not see any of my cars as commodities, utilities or just transportation. I have to really like and enjoy what I get.

I think that this thread is going too deep into something that it is very simple.
Point of clarification:

When I refer to a car as a "utility" I don't mean to infer that it's a commonplace, pedestrian item of no emotional attachment.

You'd have to pry my iPhone 4 from my cold dead fingers I love it so much, but it doesn't mean that it's needs to be viewed financially as anything more/less to me than a $200 monthly payment.

People always refer to cars as a "depreciating asset" and that's not the proper term. If you lease, it's not "depreciating" and it's nothing more than another necessary monthly "utility".

I need aircon in the summer and heat in the winter. It costs me $500 a month. I could scimp with the thermostat and bring it down to $480 a month, but in the end I want to be comfortable and its inevitable that I'll spend that $480 or $500 and that's that.

Same for the car. You need it, it's going to cost you, you pay what you pay, the money's gone, it's not an "investment" on an "asset" that is "depreciating". Love your car, but it's just another electric bill. So might as well get a new one every few years that's completely under warranty, have no resale headaches, and move on.

BJ
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  #230  
Old 09-06-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
if you paid it off in 4 years the you were paying a bigger monthly payment than a lease payment. I guess you are saying now you can start taking nice vacations because you don't have ANY payment. That is logical.

But that has been my point and BJs all along. As long as the lease payments don't affect your ability to save/invest, and generally to do all the things you want to do then why not have a new car every three years.
Let's say his BMW is 6 years old and cost him $48,000 that he's now paid off.

In the same 6 year period of leasing, I'm in my 3rd brand new BMW which has cost me an average of $529 a month, or $38,000.

His car has a street value of $15,000 but is years out of warranty.

Do the math, his decision to own an old car instead of leasing three new cars over that 6 year period nets out to around $3,000 after assorted oil changes, brake maintanence, tune-ups, and minor repairs out of warranty.

My decision to keep $48,000 in the bank, invest it, and pay only $38,000 of it out slowly over 6 years allows me to make back $2,000 at least.

In the end, he is maybe $1,000 better off than I am. And his $1,000 over 6 years is $166 a year or $14 a month. And if he can't afford to pay an extra $14 a month to be in 3 brand new BMW's instead of 1 used one, well, he perhaps should have considered a Honda.

BJ
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  #231  
Old 09-06-2012, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Same for the car. You need it, it's going to cost you, you pay what you pay, the money's gone, it's not an "investment" on an "asset" that is "depreciating". Love your car, but it's just another electric bill. So might as well get a new one every few years that's completely under warranty, have no resale headaches, and move on.

BJ
You'll regret such a statement when your e90 328i is going for 1.2 million in 40 years on Mecum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
1. "Leasing puts you in a car you can't afford. Buyers are the ones who can afford it."
We paid cash for our 550, 760, and Cayenne T:S, and I paid cash for my 335 although I sometimes wish I could have leased, but from what I can recall from a few years ago I wasn't suffering I do think I could have spent more at saks so I guess thats where I got hurt

Last edited by SuperTerp; 09-06-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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  #232  
Old 09-06-2012, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Let's say his BMW is 6 years old and cost him $48,000 that he's now paid off.

In the same 6 year period of leasing, I'm in my 3rd brand new BMW which has cost me an average of $529 a month, or $38,000.

His car has a street value of $15,000 but is years out of warranty.

Do the math, his decision to own an old car instead of leasing three new cars over that 6 year period nets out to around $3,000 after assorted oil changes, brake maintanence, tune-ups, and minor repairs out of warranty.

My decision to keep $48,000 in the bank, invest it, and pay only $38,000 of it out slowly over 6 years allows me to make back $2,000 at least.

In the end, he is maybe $1,000 better off than I am. And his $1,000 over 6 years is $166 a year or $14 a month. And if he can't afford to pay an extra $14 a month to be in 3 brand new BMW's instead of 1 used one, well, he perhaps should have considered a Honda.

BJ
Also don't forget the opportunity cost of that 48k, especially if you paid upfront.
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  #233  
Old 09-06-2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
if you paid it off in 4 years the you were paying a bigger monthly payment than a lease payment. I guess you are saying now you can start taking nice vacations because you don't have ANY payment. That is logical.

But that has been my point and BJs all along. As long as the lease payments don't affect your ability to save/invest, and generally to do all the things you want to do then why not have a new car every three years.
No. That is not the way I operate.

I put down around 25K so the monthly payment, $700, fit in with my monthly budget, and did not intrude on my vacation account of 1K per month (other costs get absorbrd in regular bills), and the various other 'pots' I have set up. That $700 a month now goes into a car account.

I don't expect to buy another car for at least several years.
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  #234  
Old 09-06-2012, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
What you're doing is fine, Kam, it's awesome in fact.

I just don't want to hear the two lease stereotypes anymore:

1. "Leasing puts you in a car you can't afford. Buyers are the ones who can afford it."

2. "People who lease are foolish, wasting money, we need to teach them how stupid they are."

You purchase-it-keep-it types stop hitting us with the leasing-is-bad stereotypes, we'll stop defending ourselves and pointing out that you should go full-cheapskate and kill your dog.

BJ
Nothing is true for everyone.

My brother in law leases because he cant afford to buy. My tennis partner leases because he likes to drive new cars and doesnt want to be bothered buying and selling.

Personally, as I have said, I fall in love with my cars, and wouldn't have wanted to turn it in two years ago.

The cost difference is way less than the personal preference.

Then again, I am still married to my college sweetheart after 39 years...
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  #235  
Old 09-06-2012, 06:08 PM
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I average 20,000+ miles per year so leasing not an option for me.
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  #236  
Old 09-06-2012, 06:13 PM
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You could be right, there are some nice deals for around 55k on cars.com with less than 35k miles.

Like this one for example.

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...nal&listType=1



Just have to find the right person.
That's one of the cars I was just looking at.

997 is so gorgeous I'd be happy with just a C2.
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  #237  
Old 09-06-2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
My situation: It's 2006 and my lease is up on my 2004 Acura TL, I have the $24,000 it takes to buy it and own it. I'd been paying $499 a month for it. I have two choices:

1. Buy the car for $24,000 cash and keep it for another 3 years.

2. Keep the $24,000 in the bank and pay it out slowly, 1 month at a time, and be in a brand new BMW 3 Series for 48 months for the exact same money.

For Choice 1, I'd wind up in 2010 having driven the same car for 6 years. Out of style, worn, and tired. Would have a value of about $7,000 when all is said and done but subtract out-of-warranty repairs and high mileage and probably I'd net back $3,000.

For Choice 2, I'd wind up in 2010 having driven 3 brand new cars in the same 6 year span. Always in style, never worn, never get tired. Would have no value when the final lease is up, but with the car always in warranty and with zero repair cost I'm in a good place.

A simple example, but it's what happened. At the end of 6 years, I was $3,000 "poorer" than if I'd driven the same Acura for the whole duration. But I was in 3 exciting new cars, and over the course of 6 years that $3,000 is equal to $500 a year or $41 a month or $1.39 a day. Half the price of a pack of gum and I'm in brand new BMW's instead of a ratty old Acura.

BJ
It makes sense, what you are saying, but not for me.
Another valid point to lease IMO is when there is nothing on the market that you like/need (there is nothing for me), and one can get something he half -like and wait it out.

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  #238  
Old 09-06-2012, 06:56 PM
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Also don't forget the opportunity cost of that 48k, especially if you paid upfront.
Economic opportunity cost is precisely what limits my expenditures on automobiles. The nature of the cars that I buy determines that they must come from discretionary income.
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  #239  
Old 09-07-2012, 04:24 AM
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Also don't forget the opportunity cost of that 48k, especially if you paid upfront.
If you're paying more for the lease long term, why is the opportunity cost of the financed car higher?

And a $48k 3 series would be worth more like $22k after 6 years, so it's about $12k cheaper. Minus 2 years of maintenance cost.
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  #240  
Old 09-07-2012, 05:12 AM
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No. That is not the way I operate.

I put down around 25K so the monthly payment, $700, fit in with my monthly budget, and did not intrude on my vacation account of 1K per month (other costs get absorbrd in regular bills), and the various other 'pots' I have set up. That $700 a month now goes into a car account.

I don't expect to buy another car for at least several years.
25K..Ok look at the opportunity cost. Buy the bluest of blue chips say JNJ for 25k you get 370 shares. it pays 2.44 dollars per share that is around 900 per year. Reinvest it in to the stock. By the 3rd year if you deduct taxes (I didn't go for the exact calculation here) you have about 400 shares. This is if the stock is at exactly the same price as when you originally bought it. if it goes down, your buyback gets you more shares. If it goes up your original investment is worth more.

So if you do this say for three 3 year leases you will. A: drive a new car every 3 years, B: your 25 grand has grown to at least double if not more but lets just say 50K.

Your savings doing it your way would be 700 x 72 or 50,400, a 400 dollars difference. Yes there are risks to the market but if you look at the history of great blue chips stocks not that much, they grow their dividend they have solid earnings and pricing power in their products among other things.

so in reality you have saved 400 dollars in nine years AND that is only if you continued to put that 700 dollars away every month. Very iffy at best. so is it worth it to you to save 400 dollars in 9 years plus say another 8K for the price of a nine year old car while driving a 9 year old car? Mind you I didn't put any maintenance in this, no mechanical issues you need to fix etc that will eat into the price of what your car is worth in the end.

Believe me I am the Master when it comes pay cash for everything. I have not carried a CC balance in 21 years. My last two house I paid cash. The current one I live in I walked into settlement with 1.3 million cashiers check and the guy told me flat out, are you sure you know what you are doing? With your credit you can get a 3 million dollar house or use half of that to invest, while you have your tax breaks. I said to him, don't worry the 4k mortgage I would have I invest anyway, plus I like to sleep well at night knowing i have ZERO debt. Granted if it was today with 15 year loans below 3.7% I would probably go a different route.

When you have however a fast depreciating asset such as a car, it makes sense to lease and keep your cash for investing. Especially with BMW giving you a great lease, plus maintenance. In the end you will find that for the 5K to 8K you saved in those 9 years, it wasn't much of a savings when you consider the cost of maintenance among other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
That's one of the cars I was just looking at.

997 is so gorgeous I'd be happy with just a C2.
I was sure this time I would be buying a 911 S, and I figured around 68k for a 2009 but then I saw the F30 and said do I really want to sink 68k into a Porsche now when I am about to start building my summer home in Greece? Nope I kept the cash and got a great lease on a car I really like. Didn't feel this way with the past 3-series. Plus I don't want my 911 to be my everyday car, and my oldest will start driving. I don't think it would be good for her to learn on a 911. The clutch along would cost a bundle to change...LOL. After this lease is over I think I will jump in one and get the 1-series as a lease for every day driving. Plus the Metro is coming very close to my house so I may not even need a daily driver.
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Last edited by windsor027; 09-07-2012 at 05:22 AM.
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  #241  
Old 09-07-2012, 06:25 AM
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I was sure this time I would be buying a 911 S, and I figured around 68k for a 2009 but then I saw the F30 and said do I really want to sink 68k into a Porsche now when I am about to start building my summer home in Greece? Nope I kept the cash and got a great lease on a car I really like. Didn't feel this way with the past 3-series. Plus I don't want my 911 to be my everyday car, and my oldest will start driving. I don't think it would be good for her to learn on a 911. The clutch along would cost a bundle to change...LOL. After this lease is over I think I will jump in one and get the 1-series as a lease for every day driving. Plus the Metro is coming very close to my house so I may not even need a daily driver.
Yeah, I agree, I guess this is why most 911 drivers are white-haired old dudes, cause they're the only ones who no longer have other priorities, and don't need a daily driver.
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  #242  
Old 09-07-2012, 06:27 AM
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this is a great thread keep the good stuff going.will have to really sit down and pour through this later on
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  #243  
Old 09-07-2012, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
...
I was sure this time I would be buying a 911 S, and I figured around 68k for a 2009 but then I saw the F30 and said do I really want to sink 68k into a Porsche now when I am about to start building my summer home in Greece? Nope I kept the cash and got a great lease on a car I really like. Didn't feel this way with the past 3-series. Plus I don't want my 911 to be my everyday car, and my oldest will start driving. I don't think it would be good for her to learn on a 911. The clutch along would cost a bundle to change...LOL. After this lease is over I think I will jump in one and get the 1-series as a lease for every day driving. Plus the Metro is coming very close to my house so I may not even need a daily driver.
Mainland Greece or the islands?
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  #244  
Old 09-07-2012, 07:47 AM
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I average 20,000+ miles per year so leasing not an option for me.
Actually it is and I have done it many times. For example, you lease your typical 3 series for 36/15 and buy an additional 15k miles for .15 cents a mile. That works out to an additional cap cost of $2250.00. Many times it is still a better deal to lease and pay for the extra mileage versus buying.

I drive 30k plus miles a year and I purchased this 535i. Having said that though I tend to agree with statements made by BJ in this thread about the advantages of leasing. In my opinion leasing versus buying is based on the rates/residuals versus the finance rate. I look at each way of driving the car and make a decision on what makes the most sense financially. I can afford to buy or lease so that has nothing to do with it. It just so happened that when I got the 335d and the 535i the finance rate was so low that it made more sense to buy the cars versus leasing each of them. I am the type that gets a new car, on average, every couple of years, but that may change. I currently have my eye on the M5, E63 and Panamera....all of those cars are quite expensive to maintain out of warranty and I am pretty sure that if I get one of those it will be a lease because I do not want to own any of them with 150k miles (which is about 4-5 years worth of driving for me). My point to add to this discussion is that each person should take a close look at the car they are buying and look at leasing versus financing and make the choice that seems best for them. However, I do think people should not automatically say I will only lease or only buy. Either one can make great sense depending on incentives at the time.
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Last edited by Alpine300ZHP; 09-07-2012 at 07:50 AM.
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  #245  
Old 09-07-2012, 07:54 AM
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Mainland Greece or the islands?
Mainland, 150 meters from the ocean in a little town East of Athens. Because of the new airport they build a very nice highway that takes you into Athens in 15 minutes. this place is 10 minutes away from that highway.

One of the reasons I had to go this year I have to make a decision whether to do the traditional building or prefab house. Unless Greece turns communist of something with the European Economic mess right now this will be our retirement home so I want to make sure I don't have issues later on. Right now there are some fabulous prefab designs out there.

I also have property in Corfu, but no plans to build there yet.
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  #246  
Old 09-07-2012, 07:54 AM
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According to my CA you can pre-buy extra lease miles at only .10 per mile which is a great price if true.

You get the 3 year 45K lease with a 59% residual and you buy an extra 15,000 miles at a cost of $1500 which is chicken feed. In addition to the set of tires you will have to replace you can also count on an additional $300-$600 or so for servicing after the included service ends.... then at lease end you dispose of the vehicle. It seems highly likely to me that this will work out cheaper than putting 60K miles on a car and trying to trade or re-sell it.

Leasing (A BMW specifically) sounds ideal for someone who racks up 20K miles per year.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:52 AM
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GVFlyer GVFlyer is offline
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Mainland, 150 meters from the ocean in a little town East of Athens. Because of the new airport they build a very nice highway that takes you into Athens in 15 minutes. this place is 10 minutes away from that highway.

One of the reasons I had to go this year I have to make a decision whether to do the traditional building or prefab house. Unless Greece turns communist of something with the European Economic mess right now this will be our retirement home so I want to make sure I don't have issues later on. Right now there are some fabulous prefab designs out there.

I also have property in Corfu, but no plans to build there yet.
Nice. I've been into Eleftherios Venizelos on numerous occasions - nice area, but I liked the Athenai airport better.

I see the KKE graffiti painted on walls and fences every time I go to Greece, but it's always been that way. I think it's more an expression of disaffected youth than a serious political movement. It's been my observation that even communists in government are not true communists.

You are fortunate to have property on Corfu, it's a beautiful island. When I lived in Europe. I used to ride my motorcycle to Brindisi, put it on the ferry then tour the Greek Islands starting with Kerkyra, always hitting Agios Nikolaos on Kriti and ultimately ending up coming ashore at Piraeus.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
Nice. I've been into Eleftherios Venizelos on numerous occasions - nice area, but I liked the Athenai airport better.

I see the KKE graffiti painted on walls and fences every time I go to Greece, but it's always been that way. I think it's more an expression of disaffected youth than a serious political movement. It's been my observation that even communists in government are not true communists.

You are fortunate to have property on Corfu, it's a beautiful island. When I lived in Europe. I used to ride my motorcycle to Brindisi, put it on the ferry then tour the Greek Islands starting with Kerkyra, always hitting Agios Nikolaos on Kriti and ultimately ending up coming ashore at Piraeus.
sounds great GV. I have never been to Kriti and for what i hear its just about the most beautiful island. I think our next trip we are going to spend a week at least there.

I agree with you the communist party always had the youth movement and about 10% of the vote but with what is happening in the economy right now that has changed. the entire Euro experiment IMO is dead, I would be very surprised if the Euro is around a couple of years from now. its not just Greece either, people don't know that Spain has a more serious unemployment problem, especially amount its youth. Italy is getting there. That is why I have been putting off building there the last 4 years.
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Last edited by windsor027; 09-07-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
According to my CA you can pre-buy extra lease miles at only .10 per mile which is a great price if true.

You get the 3 year 45K lease with a 59% residual and you buy an extra 15,000 miles at a cost of $1500 which is chicken feed. In addition to the set of tires you will have to replace you can also count on an additional $300-$600 or so for servicing after the included service ends.... then at lease end you dispose of the vehicle. It seems highly likely to me that this will work out cheaper than putting 60K miles on a car and trying to trade or re-sell it.

Leasing (A BMW specifically) sounds ideal for someone who racks up 20K miles per year.
Wait so would I say buy an extra 10,000 @ .10 so over 3 years you've added 3k in costs, if you stay under the original amount do you still get charged that amount or is it only how many you go over?
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:49 AM
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25K..Ok look at the opportunity cost. Buy the bluest of blue chips say JNJ for 25k you get 370 shares. it pays 2.44 dollars per share that is around 900 per year. Reinvest it in to the stock. By the 3rd year if you deduct taxes (I didn't go for the exact calculation here) you have about 400 shares. This is if the stock is at exactly the same price as when you originally bought it. if it goes down, your buyback gets you more shares. If it goes up your original investment is worth more.

So if you do this say for three 3 year leases you will. A: drive a new car every 3 years, B: your 25 grand has grown to at least double if not more but lets just say 50K.

Your savings doing it your way would be 700 x 72 or 50,400, a 400 dollars difference. Yes there are risks to the market but if you look at the history of great blue chips stocks not that much, they grow their dividend they have solid earnings and pricing power in their products among other things.

so in reality you have saved 400 dollars in nine years AND that is only if you continued to put that 700 dollars away every month. Very iffy at best. so is it worth it to you to save 400 dollars in 9 years plus say another 8K for the price of a nine year old car while driving a 9 year old car? Mind you I didn't put any maintenance in this, no mechanical issues you need to fix etc that will eat into the price of what your car is worth in the end.

Believe me I am the Master when it comes pay cash for everything. I have not carried a CC balance in 21 years. My last two house I paid cash. The current one I live in I walked into settlement with 1.3 million cashiers check and the guy told me flat out, are you sure you know what you are doing? With your credit you can get a 3 million dollar house or use half of that to invest, while you have your tax breaks. I said to him, don't worry the 4k mortgage I would have I invest anyway, plus I like to sleep well at night knowing i have ZERO debt. Granted if it was today with 15 year loans below 3.7% I would probably go a different route.

When you have however a fast depreciating asset such as a car, it makes sense to lease and keep your cash for investing. Especially with BMW giving you a great lease, plus maintenance. In the end you will find that for the 5K to 8K you saved in those 9 years, it wasn't much of a savings when you consider the cost of maintenance among other things.



I was sure this time I would be buying a 911 S, and I figured around 68k for a 2009 but then I saw the F30 and said do I really want to sink 68k into a Porsche now when I am about to start building my summer home in Greece? Nope I kept the cash and got a great lease on a car I really like. Didn't feel this way with the past 3-series. Plus I don't want my 911 to be my everyday car, and my oldest will start driving. I don't think it would be good for her to learn on a 911. The clutch along would cost a bundle to change...LOL. After this lease is over I think I will jump in one and get the 1-series as a lease for every day driving. Plus the Metro is coming very close to my house so I may not even need a daily driver.

I wasn't putting more money in the market at that time, I was spending it.

I was retired, and quite satisfied with my investment mix.

At some point, when you have spent decades saving for a rainy day, you have to recognize when it is raining.

Everybody's situation is different.

This summer we went on a very nice trip to Alaska. It cost as much as leasing a 650i for a year. At some point, you stop accumulating money, and start spending it. As a 62 year old guy, I am not getting the years back, so that 25K would probably have mostly gone in a trip to Antarctica.

Alaska photos linked in this thread http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...16&postcount=2

(I am on my iPad, so it would be a PITA to give a more direct link.)
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Last edited by Kamdog; 09-07-2012 at 10:53 AM.
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