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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #276  
Old 09-07-2012, 09:21 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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I bought the 335i outright and am leasing the 7. I did the math in both cases and I think that I made the right decision both times. I have leased cars in the past and sometimes I purchased them after the lease was over and sometimes I gave them back. I have also financed cars. You have to look at each situtation individually,

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  #277  
Old 09-07-2012, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
... or beer drinkers ($2,200) as we all have our little indulgences. ...
Come on now, $2,200/year in beer? If you buy decent beer by the case at Costco, it will cost you about $1 a bottle, allowing you to drink 6 beers a day! That's raging alcoholic territory. Even if you are drinking in bars or restaurants exclusively at say $6 a pop, that is still a beer a day.
  #278  
Old 09-07-2012, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I need aircon in the summer and heat in the winter. It costs me $500 a month.
You need a new AC, or to upgrade your insulation, or both Unless you always have people at home during the day, $500/month seems outrageous.
  #279  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:09 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Let's say his BMW is 6 years old and cost him $48,000 that he's now paid off.

In the same 6 year period of leasing, I'm in my 3rd brand new BMW which has cost me an average of $529 a month, or $38,000.

His car has a street value of $15,000 but is years out of warranty.

Do the math, his decision to own an old car instead of leasing three new cars over that 6 year period nets out to around $3,000 after assorted oil changes, brake maintanence, tune-ups, and minor repairs out of warranty.

My decision to keep $48,000 in the bank, invest it, and pay only $38,000 of it out slowly over 6 years allows me to make back $2,000 at least.

In the end, he is maybe $1,000 better off than I am. And his $1,000 over 6 years is $166 a year or $14 a month. And if he can't afford to pay an extra $14 a month to be in 3 brand new BMW's instead of 1 used one, well, he perhaps should have considered a Honda.

BJ
If you believe the residual values posted by Jon, the car will be worth 40% of MSRP, or $19,200. That's probably too optimistic and perhaps the actual value is closer to $17K, still $2K more than your estimate of $15K. With 6 years @ 12K/year, you are only 24Kmiles outside the free maintenance period. That's probably just an oil change or two, possibly new tires, and maybe a few other minor things for about $1500-2000, a little less than your estimate of $3000. In states like California, registration fees are much lower for years #4 to #6, so that's probably another $1000 saved. So with my estimate, and yes we are just talking about estimates, you are an additional $4,000-4,500 better off.

Since not only absolute depreciation diminishes as the car ages, but the rate of depreciation also decreases, just adding another year or two of ownership makes a very big difference, as a modern car with less than 100Kmiles will not give you too much trouble in terms of repairs. So you do save quite a bit more by stretching ownership past 6-7 years.

Having said that, the spirit of what you wrote above and in other posts makes perfect sense. Yes, you do pay more, but you get something for it. You get nicer newer cars and fewer headaches.

Last edited by bmw_or_audi; 09-07-2012 at 10:42 PM.
  #280  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
With a leased car I don't have the emotional attachment and obsessing over every ding, scratch and rock chip that I have with a car I am going to keep long term.
I am asking out of complete ignorance here, but if the lease return has dings and scratches, don't you have to pay to have them fixed? With an older car, you just don't care and live with them. But then you have dings and scratches
  #281  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamdog View Post
I fall in love with my cars and never want to get rid of them, and, basically, only do so when they cost more to keep up than they are worth.
I have found that somewhere after 5 to 7 years, you develop an emotional attachment to your car. Perhaps I am just mistaking it for habit?
  #282  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:18 PM
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25K..Ok look at the opportunity cost. Buy the bluest of blue chips say JNJ for 25k you get 370 shares. it pays 2.44 dollars per share that is around 900 per year. Reinvest it in to the stock. ...
I am not replying to you or criticizing you, but just making a general comment on this topic. Many years ago folks on every car forum would make this argument, that investing your money in the market instead of tying it up into a car would make you a lot more money. Then starting in 2008, no one made that argument anyone for at least a few years Now it is slowly making a come back. My point is that it can go either way.
  #283  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:19 PM
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Yeah, I agree, I guess this is why most 911 drivers are white-haired old dudes, cause they're the only ones who no longer have other priorities, and ...
who know they will sooner or later croak, and the thought of dying with all that saved money that their inheritors will likely blow on 911s themselves will kill them over twice
  #284  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Actually it is and I have done it many times. For example, you lease your typical 3 series for 36/15 and buy an additional 15k miles for .15 cents a mile. That works out to an additional cap cost of $2250.00.
I didn't realize BMW charged only 15 cents a mile. I found a site that claims that if you pay the extra miles upfront, many leasing companies will actually refund the unused miles. I drive about 24Kmiles/year, so this is something to think about. I wonder though that after 60-70Kmiles, the car won't look as good cosmetically and whether they will charge some penalties for that.
  #285  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by elistan View Post
I am by no means an expert in these matters, or even what could be called well-versed. I just know that I keep cars a long time (I have two, average age of 10.5 years) and when I look at the Estimate a Payment page on BMW's website, having selected a base 328i with Premium ($41,045 MSRP) I see the option to lease for 48 months at $544/mo + $2500 down, or finance for 48 months at 3.79% at $867/mo + $2500 down. Total cost of the lease, extrapolated to 10 years so 2.5 leases is $71,530. Total cost of the purchase is $44,116. (Not including maintenance, but surely that won't eat up the $27k difference.) Is my math off, or am I missing something, or is it just my 10-year ownership horizon?
Your math is not off. You will probably save about $15-20K. My own car is almost 11 years old with 240+Kmiles, 100+Kmiles longer than I thought I'd keep it . But then you are driving a much older dingier car. And as BJ points out, you do get very tangible things for the extra $1,500-2000/year. And we should put the difference in perspective: I have been averaging 29-31mpg with my car, so I have burned about 8000 gallons of fuel during its lifetime. Assuming an average price of $4/gal for premium, that's $32K spent just on gas, which is a lot more than the $23K I paid for the car . Add to that insurance, maintenance, yearly registration, and repairs. So the price of my car is a relatively small portion of its cost of operation. Maybe I should get a TDI Passat.

I do feel I saved a bunch, but I am also starting to feel life is getting shorter and shorter, so I will most likely keep my next car for a shorter period.
  #286  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by skydog0203 View Post
My car is out of warranty and I am spending a lot of money every year on maintenance/repairs (like the $900 I just had to shell out for a new starter two weeks before I take delivery of my new car).
For those considering very long ownership, if you are going to service your car always at the dealer, forget it. You will not save anything over leasing. You may even loose. They will just rape you.
  #287  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If you only drive short commute to work, from pure financial standpoint, leasing a electric car like the Volt will be the way to go. You can lease one for around $300 with no down for two years, never pay for gas.
For people who drive just say 5,000 miles a year, they can easily keep the car well past ten years with minimal maintenance. I think that would be the most economical route. Of course, they have to be willing to drive the same car for that long.

In general, if you are driving very few miles, I think a lease is a waste of money, unless you can really lower your payments by signing up only for the number of miles you actually need.
  #288  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
For people who drive just say 5,000 miles a year, they can easily keep the car well past ten years with minimal maintenance. I think that would be the most economical route. Of course, they have to be willing to drive the same car for that long.

In general, if you are driving very few miles, I think a lease is a waste of money, unless you can really lower your payments by signing up only for the number of miles you actually need.
That's a very good point. My fun cars are driven less then 5,000 miles annually, so in 10 years they have less than 50,000 miles on them and they are worth a premium for condition and low miles when I go to sell them. I just sold my Vette that I owned 3 1/2 years with 6,500 miles on it and my 335is currently only has 4,100 miles in 2 1/2 years. (I had intended to keep the Vette for many years until I lost confidence in it due to engine issues)
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  #289  
Old 09-07-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I bought the 335i outright and am leasing the 7. I did the math in both cases and I think that I made the right decision both times. I have leased cars in the past and sometimes I purchased them after the lease was over and sometimes I gave them back. I have also financed cars. You have to look at each situtation individually,

CA
The 335i historically has very good resale value, whereas the 7 Series typically have poor resale values. You made the right decision on both, IMO.
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  #290  
Old 09-07-2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
I am asking out of complete ignorance here, but if the lease return has dings and scratches, don't you have to pay to have them fixed? With an older car, you just don't care and live with them. But then you have dings and scratches
You should google BMW lease return policies they are extremely generous. The dings and scratches have to be pretty severe for them to worry about charging you for them. This is another misconception with leases, the car has to be returned in premium condition at lease end, not true at all. Even if you have larger dings and scratches then the generous guidelines the charge at return time appears to be pretty reasonable.
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  #291  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:31 AM
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I have found that somewhere after 5 to 7 years, you develop an emotional attachment to your car. Perhaps I am just mistaking it for habit?
Actually that is true in my case. Don't ask me why but I endup loving my Subaru Outback. Bought it brand new in 98, ordered it actually with a manual and everything you can put on the Subaru back then. Maintenance I took care of myself, no issues whatsoever, even though we started getting BMWs I kept it and used it all the time. In 2004 I had about 88K miles on it and felt a little slip in the clutch. Didn't care I spend 1,200 dollars at the dealership to change the clutch. I was in love with it and was going to keep it until the wheels fell off. The A-holes didn't do the job right. Clutch slipped worse, took it back and low and behold the dealership is sold. The new owners didn't care to do anything about it. Talk to a couple of lawyer friends they both said nothing you can do. That is why I started hating the car. Could I have spend another 1,200 or so to get it right? Sure, but the car lost its "snine" for me. Plus we had the X5 and the 323i, really I didn't need it. Took it to carmax and sold it for 4,900. That was my last bought car. You could say this car broke any desire for me to every buy a car again and keep it beyond the warranty running out.
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  #292  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
Actually that is true in my case. Don't ask me why but I endup loving my Subaru Outback. Bought it brand new in 98, ordered it actually with a manual and everything you can put on the Subaru back then. Maintenance I took care of myself, no issues whatsoever, even though we started getting BMWs I kept it and used it all the time. In 2004 I had about 88K miles on it and felt a little slip in the clutch. Didn't care I spend 1,200 dollars at the dealership to change the clutch. I was in love with it and was going to keep it until the wheels fell off. The A-holes didn't do the job right. Clutch slipped worse, took it back and low and behold the dealership is sold. The new owners didn't care to do anything about it. Talk to a couple of lawyer friends they both said nothing you can do. That is why I started hating the car. Could I have spend another 1,200 or so to get it right? Sure, but the car lost its "snine" for me. Plus we had the X5 and the 323i, really I didn't need it. Took it to carmax and sold it for 4,900. That was my last bought car. You could say this car broke any desire for me to every buy a car again and keep it beyond the warranty running out.
We went trekking in Glacier National Park this summer and I now believe the Subaru Outback to be the official car of Montana. It seems like half of the cars on the road in that state are the ubiquitous Subarus.

Personally, I think "Subaru" is the Japanese word for "Ugly Car."

I know what you mean about becoming attached to cars though - I've had the diesel Volkswagen on the right in the below picture for over a decade and I love it. So much so in fact, that a few years back I put a GTi suspension under it.

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  #293  
Old 09-10-2012, 01:31 AM
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Clearly every lease vs buy calculation is different since BMW could be setting an artificially high residual or an artificially low money factor/interest rate to increase sales of a specific model with the Z4 last year being a prime example.

I live in California and despite the tax advantages of leasing if you are planning to own your car for less then 4-5 years, I decided to buy a BMW X1 via European Delivery since the car is lightly optioned and I feel as though I will come out ahead if I simply own it 30 months. On a much more heavily optioned X1, I feel as though I would need to hold it for at least 48 months for a purchase to pay off in comparison to a lease. I'm in the position to pay cash for the car so I avoid interest and the leasing bank fee but obviously I'm tying up some money that could be deployed elsewhere. $725 bank fee out of $50,000 is not that large of a percentage but out of ~$30,000 it is more noticeable.

There are a lot of factors to consider but lightly optioned fuel efficient cars often do much better then expected in terms of residual value since people buying used cars don't put that much value on most options besides items like air conditioning that are standard in most cars. Options on a BMW usually depreciate in value at a faster rate then the base car itself.

The other benefit of owning if you buy a car that wasn't too expensive at first -- lets say $36,000 before tax and title --, you may in position to drop/scale back insurance coverage after 3 to 4 years and take a risk that you won't crash the car to save even more money.
  #294  
Old 09-10-2012, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
We went trekking in Glacier National Park this summer and I now believe the Subaru Outback to be the official car of Montana. It seems like half of the cars on the road in that state are the ubiquitous Subarus.

Personally, I think "Subaru" is the Japanese word for "Ugly Car."

I know what you mean about becoming attached to cars though - I've had the diesel Volkswagen on the right in the below picture for over a decade and I love it. So much so in fact, that a few years back I put a GTi suspension under it.

yea Subarus are very popular in northern climates and I agree they are butt ugly especially the new outbacks. However I got to tell you back then for the money i thought you got a lot of value. Car drove great, no issues until that clutch and it was mainly my stupidity for not checking the status on the dealership to got me in trouble. When I went to it I noticed a very empty lot but the manager lied to me when asked and said to me we are doing renovations...right. 3 weeks later they were sold.

Nice on upgrading the suspension the the TDI. They are the mpg kings plus they still drive nice.
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2008 X5 4.8i - Turned in 1/24/11 They created the Lemon law because of this SUV.

Last edited by windsor027; 09-10-2012 at 06:41 AM.
  #295  
Old 09-10-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
yea Subarus are very popular in northern climates and I agree they are butt ugly especially the new outbacks. However I got to tell you back then for the money i thought you got a lot of value. Car drove great, no issues until that clutch and it was mainly my stupidity for not checking the status on the dealership to got me in trouble. When I went to it I noticed a very empty lot but the manager lied to me when asked and said to me we are doing renovations...right. 3 weeks later they were sold.

Nice on upgrading the suspension the the TDI. They are the mpg kings plus they still drive nice.
We love our 2012 Outback, I think it's a bargain. Nice leather seats more comfortable than my 330i, better stereo than my 330i, awd, 30 mph highway, tons of room and all for under $27k.

It's no wonder you see a ton of them up here. I don't think ugly is the word, it's just utilitarian. The WRX was ugly.
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  #296  
Old 09-10-2012, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by windsor027 View Post
yea Subarus are very popular in northern climates and I agree they are butt ugly especially the new outbacks.
Hey, they're not all butt ugly;



OK... so maybe it's in the eye of the beholder... but you can't say they didn't try to make something truly epic back in the early 90's. I loved that car... still see it around St. Louis when I'm in University City occasionally.
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  #297  
Old 09-10-2012, 08:47 AM
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We love our 2012 Outback, I think it's a bargain. Nice leather seats more comfortable than my 330i, better stereo than my 330i, awd, 30 mph highway, tons of room and all for under $27k.

It's no wonder you see a ton of them up here. I don't think ugly is the word, it's just utilitarian. The WRX was ugly.
Well Chris you know what they say beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. However I tell you right now if i wanted another great utilitarian car i would be buying another one.
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  #298  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:55 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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In 2004 I had about 88K miles on it and felt a little slip in the clutch. Didn't care I spend 1,200 dollars at the dealership to change the clutch. I was in love with it and was going to keep it until the wheels fell off. The A-holes didn't do the job right. Clutch slipped worse, took it back and low and behold the dealership is sold....
Just a side comment on this. For those contemplating long term ownership, don't bother if you are going to do it with a dealership. You will get so badly raped that it will cost you more than just buying a new car every 3-4 years.

At about 64K, the clutch in my Passat became harder to shift and within a couple of days I couldn't shift anymore. As luck would have it, my trusty indy had closed shop for a two week long trip, so the car got towed to a VW dealer. The bill came to $1,500, with the slimy service writer joking that I shouldn't use a heavy foot. I asked him if this was their book price for the job and he assured me it was. I didn't buy it and called anonymously to ask for a quote. I also checked with other dealers. The book price was $1,200. I confronted them and I was able to have them refund $200 out of the $300 overcharge.

I am also 100% sure it was not a worn clutch, as it wasn't slipping. I suspect that something, a spring or a pin, was broken. They supposedly replaced the clutch and throw bearing. But they either didn't change the throw bearing or didn't adjust things properly, because after driving in heavy traffic, I always hear the tell tell "tack tack" sound of a bad throw out bearing. But my car has been driven another 180+Kmiles since the alleged replacement, and both the clutch and throw out bearing still seem OK (crossing fingers).

So "heavy foot" my ASZ! I got raped and probably cheated. At least decent dealers only rape you Btwy, for those who care, the dealership was the one "the little old lady" is from. Their business model must be to rip off the clueless VW-driving kids of the wealthy of San Marino, South Pasadena, and nearby areas.

Last edited by bmw_or_audi; 09-12-2012 at 10:01 AM.
  #299  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:06 AM
windsor027's Avatar
windsor027 windsor027 is offline
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Mein Auto: 2013 335i and 2014 X3 35i
Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Hey, they're not all butt ugly;



OK... so maybe it's in the eye of the beholder... but you can't say they didn't try to make something truly epic back in the early 90's. I loved that car... still see it around St. Louis when I'm in University City occasionally.
Oh man I loved that car, but back then I was in an all out saving/investing mode otherwise I would have bought it. Drove like a dream also, a friend of mine had it.
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2014 X3 35i Dynamic Handling Package| Cold Weather Package | NAV | Premium hi-fi system | Driver Assistance Package.

2013 335i Sportline | M-adaptive | HK | NAV | PDC | Heated Front seats |6-speed MT.

2011 X5 35d Great SUV gone

2009 C350 Mercedes Gone 7-31-2012, good car but boooooooooring.

2008 X5 4.8i - Turned in 1/24/11 They created the Lemon law because of this SUV.
  #300  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:07 AM
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mr_clueless mr_clueless is offline
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Mein Auto: 2014 328i
I'm still on my original clutch.

I've had bad experiences with both dealer and non-dealer shops. I'd have to say it's best to find an independent you can trust that works on the cars themselves. There are some recommendations in the forums here on bimmerfest.
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2014 328i / Liquid Blue / Beige Leatherette / 4 DR / 6 MT / Moonroof / Rear Camera + PDC / Xenons / DHP / 12K+ Miles / Bought 10-16-2013
2003 325i / Gray Green / Beige Leatherette / 4 DR / 5 MT / Moonroof / 219K+ Miles / Bought 12-21-2002 / Sold 10-21-2013
1998 Civic EX / Vogue Silver / Gray / 4 DR / 5 MT / 122K+ Miles / Bought 12-30-1997 / Totaled 08-2002
1988 Sentra / Gray / Gray / 2 DR / 4 MT / 190K+ Miles / Bought 06-1994 @ 120K+ Miles / Died 12-1997
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