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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #301  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:10 AM
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windsor027 windsor027 is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
I'm still on my original clutch.

I've had bad experiences with both dealer and non-dealer shops. I'd have to say it's best to find an independent you can trust that works on the cars themselves. There are some recommendations in the forums here on bimmerfest.
I think my wife killed the clutch on the Subaru. She is not the smoothest with the clutch. That being said she is more excited than I to be getting another manual...what a woman.
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  #302  
Old 09-11-2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wcinvest View Post
Clearly every lease vs buy calculation is different since BMW could be setting an artificially high residual or an artificially low money factor/interest rate to increase sales of a specific model with the Z4 last year being a prime example.

I live in California and despite the tax advantages of leasing if you are planning to own your car for less then 4-5 years, I decided to buy a BMW X1 via European Delivery since the car is lightly optioned and I feel as though I will come out ahead if I simply own it 30 months. On a much more heavily optioned X1, I feel as though I would need to hold it for at least 48 months for a purchase to pay off in comparison to a lease. I'm in the position to pay cash for the car so I avoid interest and the leasing bank fee but obviously I'm tying up some money that could be deployed elsewhere. $725 bank fee out of $50,000 is not that large of a percentage but out of ~$30,000 it is more noticeable.

There are a lot of factors to consider but lightly optioned fuel efficient cars often do much better then expected in terms of residual value since people buying used cars don't put that much value on most options besides items like air conditioning that are standard in most cars. Options on a BMW usually depreciate in value at a faster rate then the base car itself.

The other benefit of owning if you buy a car that wasn't too expensive at first -- lets say $36,000 before tax and title --, you may in position to drop/scale back insurance coverage after 3 to 4 years and take a risk that you won't crash the car to save even more money.
How much is your insurance? I live in California. Our insurance is dirt cheap compared to other states.
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  #303  
Old 09-13-2012, 08:56 PM
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Good rules of thumb.. Don't buy depreciating assets, and don't own a German car outside of the warranty.
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  #304  
Old 09-13-2012, 09:22 PM
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Good rules of thumb.. Don't buy depreciating assets, and don't own a German car outside of the warranty.
+1

Touchdown.

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  #305  
Old 11-25-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Leasing is often a means to get into a vehicle which you cannot afford to buy.
I agree in that leasing a vehicle does help some people get into vehicles they could not afford. I also thought I would always be a person who would purchase my vehicles instead of leasing but for me it doesn't make much sense to buy.

Here are my reasons:
  • I want a new vehicle every 3-4 years an typicaly would stay under 15k miles per year
  • If I love the vehicle and want to drive it for many more years I would purchase it at that point. Or I could purchase the vehicle if I know I can make money by selling it.
  • [Anything that goes wrong with the vehicle will be covered under warranty. If I were to purchase the vehicle I could then run into some issues when it comes out of warranty.
  • The vehicle value on new vehicles drop so much sometimes 15-20% on day one. This would also take a hugh hit if you don't time the body style with your purchase date. If you hold onto your vehicle over 7 years chances are there will be a new body style and the price of your vehicle with drop dramatically. At the end of the day you have to do the math and see if it makes sense to you. Purchase a $75k vehicle and drive it over 5 years ($75k divided by 5 years = $15,000 per year). or you could possibly get a great lease rate and be paying $800/mo with 0 down and pay $31,200 over 39/mo for the same $75k vehicle.
  • BMW like many luxury brands offers buying out your lease early sometimes 3-6 months early.

At the end of the day its up to you on what works best for your situation but I would not necessarily say that people lease vehicles because they can't afford to purchase the vehicle. In the majority of cases it tents to be smarter to lease.
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  #306  
Old 11-25-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cmd911 View Post
I agree in that leasing a vehicle does help some people get into vehicles they could not afford. I also thought I would always be a person who would purchase my vehicles instead of leasing but for me it doesn't make much sense to buy.

Here are my reasons:
  • I want a new vehicle every 3-4 years an typicaly would stay under 15k miles per year
  • If I love the vehicle and want to drive it for many more years I would purchase it at that point. Or I could purchase the vehicle if I know I can make money by selling it.
  • [Anything that goes wrong with the vehicle will be covered under warranty. If I were to purchase the vehicle I could then run into some issues when it comes out of warranty.
  • The vehicle value on new vehicles drop so much sometimes 15-20% on day one. This would also take a hugh hit if you don't time the body style with your purchase date. If you hold onto your vehicle over 7 years chances are there will be a new body style and the price of your vehicle with drop dramatically. At the end of the day you have to do the math and see if it makes sense to you. Purchase a $75k vehicle and drive it over 5 years ($75k divided by 5 years = $15,000 per year). or you could possibly get a great lease rate and be paying $800/mo with 0 down and pay $31,200 over 39/mo for the same $75k vehicle.
  • BMW like many luxury brands offers buying out your lease early sometimes 3-6 months early.

At the end of the day its up to you on what works best for your situation but I would not necessarily say that people lease vehicles because they can't afford to purchase the vehicle. In the majority of cases it tents to be smarter to lease.
Your math is wrong because you are assuming your car has no value after 5 years if purchased. If you can sell the $75k car for $15k, it drops the "cost" to $12k per year. $20k resale and its $11k per year, etc. At that point becomes as good or better than your good lease deal.

Not saying a lease isn't good as I am a big lease fan, but make sure your comparison math is accurate.
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  #307  
Old 11-25-2012, 01:36 PM
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Leasing is almost always more expensive than buying a car and driving it for 10 years.

And yes, leasing is frequently done by people to get into vehicles they otherwise could not afford. The typical schmo bases their finance decision completely on monthly payment, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that leasing a $45-$55K new car with a high residual is cheaper than buying it.

The difference is that at the end of three years, the lessee has nothing, where-as if the buyer purchased the car and paid it off in 3 years then they have a car that is still worth 60% or so of new price.

Leasing makes sense when you could otherwise afford to buy, but want to drive a car that is newer and always under warranty, and are willing to pay a premium for it.
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  #308  
Old 11-25-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
Your math is wrong because you are assuming your car has no value after 5 years if purchased. If you can sell the $75k car for $15k, it drops the "cost" to $12k per year. $20k resale and its $11k per year, etc. At that point becomes as good or better than your good lease deal.

Not saying a lease isn't good as I am a big lease fan, but make sure your comparison math is accurate.
I understand that I was just using it as a reference as cost per year of ownership but what I would say your number of $11k/year to own vs $9,600 ($800/mo) to lease. This is also assuming your not getting out of your lease early.
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  #309  
Old 11-25-2012, 01:49 PM
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I understand that I was just using it as a reference as cost per year of ownership but what I would say your number of $11k/year to own vs $9,600 ($800/mo) to lease. This is also assuming your not getting out of your lease early.
There's simply no comparison.

You buy a $50K BMW and drive it for 9 years.

Your TCO is going to be $50K plus interest (let's say you got a sucky loan and paid $10K in interest) plus maintenance... let's say your car is a piece of crap and needs $1000 per year in years 5-9 for repairs and maintenance.

Your TCO after 9 years is about $65K but here's the kicker, the car is still probably worth about $20K... so your net TCO is about $45K.

Now, you lease a BMW every 3 years for 9 years with a monthly lease payment of $600 as well as a lease acquisition for each lease of about $750. You also have to spend $1000 at the end of every lease to put tires on the car at turn-in.

Your TCO after 9 years is $64,800 for lease payments plus $2150 for lease acquisition charges plus $3000 for tires for a total of $69,950 and you have NOTHING to show for it at the end.

Leasing only makes sense if you have enough financial largesse to absorb that kind of a hit to your long term investments and savings.... or, if you're just dumb.

Again, I'm a big fan of leasing... primarily as a way to drive a car for 3 years, and decide if I want to walk away from it at the end. The last two cars I leased I bought out at the end of the lease and drove long term (one is my wife's). The 328i is being leased because I would rather dump the extra money into investments as well as being concerned about potential maintenance headaches with a brand new body style.
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  #310  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
There's simply no comparison.

You buy a $50K BMW and drive it for 9 years.

Your TCO is going to be $50K plus interest (let's say you got a sucky loan and paid $10K in interest) plus maintenance... let's say your car is a piece of crap and needs $1000 per year in years 5-9 for repairs and maintenance.

Your TCO after 9 years is about $65K but here's the kicker, the car is still probably worth about $20K... so your net TCO is about $45K.

Now, you lease a BMW every 3 years for 9 years with a monthly lease payment of $600 as well as a lease acquisition for each lease of about $750. You also have to spend $1000 at the end of every lease to put tires on the car at turn-in.

Your TCO after 9 years is $64,800 for lease payments plus $2150 for lease acquisition charges plus $3000 for tires for a total of $69,950 and you have NOTHING to show for it at the end.

Leasing only makes sense if you have enough financial largesse to absorb that kind of a hit to your long term investments and savings.... or, if you're just dumb.

Again, I'm a big fan of leasing... primarily as a way to drive a car for 3 years, and decide if I want to walk away from it at the end. The last two cars I leased I bought out at the end of the lease and drove long term (one is my wife's). The 328i is being leased because I would rather dump the extra money into investments as well as being concerned about potential maintenance headaches with a brand new body style.
Agreed if you drive your vehicle for more than 3-4 years it probably doesn't make sense. Just saying the people who I see at the dealership everyday are want a new vehicle every few years most can afford to buy but just like the safe option of leasing which allows them to keep up with the Jones'.
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  #311  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:04 PM
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My wife is a dentist. Plenty of people pull up to her dental office in $40K or more leased cars (Mercedes, Range Rover, Lexus) and then scream and pitch a fit when it is going to cost $15 for a co-pay on a dental filling that their kids need and complained about how strapped they are for cash.

These people clearly cannot afford the car they are driving if they can't afford to get their kids teeth fixed.

Anyways, I can't prove my point that most are getting into cars they otherwise can't afford any more than you can prove that most could afford to buy but choose not to.
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  #312  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
Your math is wrong because you are assuming your car has no value after 5 years if purchased. If you can sell the $75k car for $15k, it drops the "cost" to $12k per year. $20k resale and its $11k per year, etc. At that point becomes as good or better than your good lease deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post

Leasing makes sense when you could otherwise afford to buy, but want to drive a car that is newer and always under warranty, and are willing to pay a premium for it.
Exactly.

Leasing is more expensive than buying. Most people are stuck in 1985 and think leasing is a way to get into a car that you can't afford. It's the exact opposite these days.

BJ
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  #313  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:11 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is online now
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Originally Posted by cmd911 View Post
Agreed if you drive your vehicle for more than 3-4 years it probably doesn't make sense. Just saying the people who I see at the dealership everyday are want a new vehicle every few years most can afford to buy but just like the safe option of leasing which allows them to keep up with the Jones'.
It's a bit different with BMW because of the no-cost maintenance program.

For me, I view a $550 a month lease payment as just another monthly bill, it's just another utility. It costs me less than my gas/electric bill each month, just a hair more than I spend for my families cellphones and internet. Our cars are just as important as those other necessities.

There was a time back in the 1960's where buying a car was a big deal, next to your house, your biggest other outlay of money. No more. We live in a different world now, and a $550 monthly payment is not a big deal to those who can afford it to begin with.

And because of BMW's no-cost maintenance program, leasing a car makes a boatload of financial sense. Since the only way that a new car can be less expensive than leasing is by keeping it 7+ years, it's actually more prudent to just lease perpetually and never have to deal with any depreciation or repair costs.

I'm going to keep leasing until I die. I'll never turn off my heat, my electricity, my cable TV, or my cellphones, not going to turn off my car either. Just another monthly payment, that's all it is.

BJ
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  #314  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:22 PM
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I always do a comparison cost between buying and leasing for every car I purchase. My current two cars were purchased because buying turned out to be cheaper in my analysis, especially since I was seriously considering keeping the cars beyond three years. I paid off the 335d in about a year and took out a three year 0.9% loan on the 550. Interestingly, I have a hybrid buy/lease option with my 550. Since the 550 will be paid off at the three year point, I will have a choice of keeping it for three more years for the cost of an extended warranty & pre-paid maintenance (~$5,500) or trade it in for a new 550 with the trade-in value covering the cost the single payment lease on the new car. Since I have about $6,000 in non-recoverable Dinan mods (the rest can be transferred to the new car), it looks like it would make more sense just to keep it.
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  #315  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Leasing makes sense when you could otherwise afford to buy, but want to drive a car that is newer and always under warranty, and are willing to pay a premium for it.
Great summary of all the factual points discussed.

Leasing is a reasonable route to get into a car if it is an option rather than a necessity.
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  #316  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:36 PM
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It's a bit different with BMW because of the no-cost maintenance program.
But only very little for folks who barely drive 30Kmile over the lease duration. You get what, one or two oil changes, a set of wipers, and maybe a cabin filter? Most folks won't need a brake job within 30K, although if you do a lot of city driving, you might need them.

One thing that matters a lot about the cost difference between leasing and long term ownership is where you service your car. If you get all work done at a dealership, then perhaps it is not even worth considering ownership considering how much they charge for everything. But if you know of an indy that does quality work with the same OEM parts, it can cost you significantly less over time. The complementary coffee, or even breakfast/lunch some dealers offer is not free. You are paying for it
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  #317  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
It's a bit different with BMW because of the no-cost maintenance program.

For me, I view a $550 a month lease payment as just another monthly bill, it's just another utility. It costs me less than my gas/electric bill each month, just a hair more than I spend for my families cellphones and internet. Our cars are just as important as those other necessities.

There was a time back in the 1960's where buying a car was a big deal, next to your house, your biggest other outlay of money. No more. We live in a different world now, and a $550 monthly payment is not a big deal to those who can afford it to begin with.

And because of BMW's no-cost maintenance program, leasing a car makes a boatload of financial sense. Since the only way that a new car can be less expensive than leasing is by keeping it 7+ years, it's actually more prudent to just lease perpetually and never have to deal with any depreciation or repair costs.

I'm going to keep leasing until I die. I'll never turn off my heat, my electricity, my cable TV, or my cellphones, not going to turn off my car either. Just another monthly payment, that's all it is.

BJ
I've always had a car payment independent of whether I leased or purchased. My goal has always been to keep my car payments less than my mortgage payment. When my mortgage is paid off in a couple years, I'm not sure what I'll do.
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  #318  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:45 PM
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I've always had a car payment independent of whether I leased or purchased. My goal has always been to keep my car payments less than my mortgage payment. When my mortgage is paid off in a couple years, I'm not sure what I'll do.


LOL. Then it's time to get the new M8 methinks.

BJ
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  #319  
Old 11-25-2012, 03:07 PM
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Leasing vs. buying depends on your individual situation. BJ has been touting leasing over buying for years and I think he makes a good case for his particular situation.

In my particular case with the 335i where I don't particularly care if I have the latest model and don't need the car every day and planned on keeping ot for a while leasing did not seem to me to be the best option. I have leased in the past and one of my cars - the 750 which is used primarily for business - is leased. Ms. Audio's Jaguar was leased and was just returned. We will not be replacing that car and the fact that we did not have to worry about how to get rid of it was a big convenience. I wrote a check for the 335i and never had payments.

CA
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  #320  
Old 11-25-2012, 03:13 PM
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We always buy and get an extended warranty. First two BMWs were used but this one was new. I'd rather own it and sell it when I'm ready to move on.
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  #321  
Old 11-25-2012, 04:08 PM
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If you own your own company, a lease can also be written as a tax write off. So, it some instances, leasing does make sense. Some folks(Like myself) like having the ability to move on after a certain period of time.(even though I think I've become attached to the M) I drop it off, and start looking at the next car that is within my budget. Don't have to worry about selling it, or any warranty issues because it's covered throughout the time that I will have it.
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  #322  
Old 11-25-2012, 04:31 PM
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LOL. Then it's time to get the new M8 methinks.

BJ
An M8 was somewhat inline with what I was thinking, but husbands and wives sometimes have different thoughts.

My thoughts:



Mrs Dunderhi's thoughts:


I wonder if I will buy or lease? Decisions, decisions.
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  #323  
Old 11-26-2012, 05:37 AM
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Leasing makes sense when you could otherwise afford to buy, but want to drive a car that is newer and always under warranty, and are willing to pay a premium for it.
+1, and in my case, when you need a ride now, but aren't sure it's one you want to keep for the long term.
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  #324  
Old 11-26-2012, 12:51 PM
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Posts: 1,970
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
If the argument is strictly financial, the least expensive way to own a car is to buy it used and hold it until it's essentially worthless. Sure, the maintenance expense increases in the out years, but almost never to the point where it's as much as a car payment every month.

A lease is a financial vehicle, more or less a balloon payment program where the lessee has the option to give the car back in lieu of the balloon. There should be no inherent advantage of leasing or of buying; each simply appeals for different reasons. BMW does offer _very_ good lease terms; part of their market share approach.

I'm pretty sure leasing has grown to be so popular because people feel like they can have a nicer car for a given monthly outlay. The downside is that when you lease you have a car payment forever.
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2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)

Last edited by WJGreer; 11-26-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:37 PM
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SamS SamS is offline
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Location: Dallas
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 791
Mein Auto: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3
Someone mentioned this several pages back, but it is the biggest driver for me: I don't want to be tied to the car for exactly 1095 days. I might want a new car in 18 months, or maybe 40 months. Someone will say "Swapalease", but that's not a guaranteed thing. Depending on your payments, etc., your car could get no takers, or take months to move. I can sell/trade in a matter of days if I want to.

Also, I like the idea of paying off my cars a bit early. If I have a 36 month loan, I may pay it off in 24-30 months, then have several months or even a year+ where I have ZERO car payments, save up that money, and think about which car I want to buy when I'm ready. If I'm tied to 36 months, maybe the car I really want doesn't come out just as my lease ends, or is brand-spanking new and dealers get full MSRP. If you own, you can hang onto your current car for a few more months until you can negotiate a more favorable deal. The same thing could happen when you do a traditional loan, but that's why I like to have enough equity in the car to never be underwater. I like the flexibility it offers me, even if I'm putting cash into a "depreciating asset"

And when you own your car, you always have the upper hand when it comes to negotiating with the dealer. You never have to hope the dealer will give you favorable pay-off or buyout terms, you don't even have to necessarily sell your existing car to get the new one. My friend just went through this... he is leasing a '11 3-series and couldn't get a new car that he really wants because he is upside down on his lease and too far out for a pull-ahead offer.
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