Doesn't Anyone Buy Anymore?

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Kelley Blue Book a 2008 328i with 80,000 miles in good condition, it's $12,000 in trade-in value.

http://www.kbb.com/bmw/3-series/2008...&mileage=80000

BJ

That must be some 2008 328i if it was optioned to 48K! Was it?

So how are you coming up with your monthly lease payment?

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Kelley Blue Book a 2008 328i with 80,000 miles in good condition, it's $12,000 in trade-in value.

http://www.kbb.com/bmw/3-series/2008...&mileage=80000

BJ

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

That must be some 2008 328i if it was optioned to 48K! Was it?

I have no idea, but I know I have a coin jar in my kitchen cabinet with more than the $1,800 your current ride is worth.

Just because your car has a BMW logo on the hood doesn't mean you actually drive a BMW. You drive what a BMW used to be, what today would be considered the rough equivalent of a 2008 Buick LeSabre. You E46 people keep sticking your noses and making trouble in F30 threads as if you have a car we all respect and an opinion that is of value. You don't.

BJ

Originally Posted by Robert A

So how are you coming up with your monthly lease payment?

My car is optioned at $48,000 and I put $2,500 down and I pay $539 a month.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I have no idea, but I know I have a coin jar in my kitchen cabinet with more than the $1,800 your current ride is worth.

Just because your car has a BMW logo on the hood doesn't mean you actually drive a BMW. You drive what a BMW used to be, what today would be considered the rough equivalent of a 2008 Buick LeSabre. You E46 people keep sticking your noses and making trouble in F30 threads as if you have a car we all respect and an opinion that is of value. You don't.

BJ

No need for personal attack if you can't answer my question.

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

No need for personal attack if you can't answer my question.

Some of us are a little tired of the F30 pile-on in our own forum.

Sometimes we don't play nice. Sometimes we fight back.

And that wasn't a personal attack; that was the truth.

BJ

On a 57 month lease?

Tell me the selling price, the MF, the residual (in dollars) and the lease payment before tax.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

My car is optioned at $48,000 and I put $2,500 down and I pay $539 a month.

BJ

Originally Posted by Robert A

On a 57 month lease?

Tell me the selling price, the MF, the residual (in dollars) and the lease payment before tax.

No, on a 36 month lease.

As I said in the original post, the BUYER keeps the car to the US average of 57 months. the LEASER is into his second lease when the 57 month point is hit and the comparison is made.

My dealer paid the tax. I am a good enough negotiator to get the same discounts ($1000 test drive, $300 app, pull ahead, repeat customer, etc.) on the second lease. If the car with the same options costs more than $539 in 2016 I'll remove an option to remain at $539.

There is no smoking gun here. Unless you keep a purchased car for more than 7 years, leasing is the superior option on many levels.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Some of us are a little tired of the F30 pile-on in our own forum.

Sometimes we don't play nice. Sometimes we fight back.

And that wasn't a personal attack; that was the truth.

BJ

Because that is the way you see things does not make it "the truth". I agree that my car is worthless, but I disagree on everything else.

You make some very good points about the advantages of leasing, but I don't see it as a "one size fits all". If someone's finances allow them to own a new car every 3 years and possibly be off by a couple of hundred a month in that process, leasing is the way to go. For me, owning is actually more flexible...I can decide whether to dump or keep it and how many miles to drive. I had put more than 30K miles on the car in the first year itself...find me a competitive lease that would allow me to do that.

I would never want to own a BMW without warranty again. Just the way it is. So I lease when I get a good rate. My European delivered 328i with sport, leather, xenon and auto is only $360/month for 27 months.

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

Because that is the way you see things does not make it "the truth". I agree that my car is worthless, but I disagree on everything else.

You make some very good points about the advantages of leasing, but I don't see it as a "one size fits all". If someone's finances allow them to own a new car every 3 years and possibly be off by a couple of hundred a month in that process, leasing is the way to go. For me, owning is actually more flexible...I can decide whether to dump or keep it and how many miles to drive. I had put more than 30K miles on the car in the first year itself...find me a competitive lease that would allow me to do that.

Of course your car is not worthless. It's a matter of hijacking a thread between new F30 owners.

We're discussing whether a 2013 F30 $50,000 buyer should a) buy with cash, b) buy with financing, c) lease. A few hundred meaningful posts later the thread is overtaken by non-F30 owners who want to get up on a soap box and preach how we're all foolish because we could be driving bicycles and be saving $100,000 every six years.

Every thread that has been started or hijacked by E46 or E90 owners belongs in those forums. "The ATS is what a BMW should be!" "The E46 was the best 3 Series ever BMW sucks for changing it!" "The F30 is a bloated pig and lost another comparo!" and on and on.

Almost all of us are driving cars under 6 months old. We don't deserve the bombardment of negativity that pervades every thread by people who don't belong here. Hey, I can be a dick too. I'm really good at it, actually. Yet I've never made a post in the E46 forum because I simply don't belong there.

Food for thought.

BJ

Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo

First. Do you honestly believe you got all 21k back? On a 5 year loan the first year is over 70% interest payments.

For that to be true, the interest rate has to be about 25%.

You can easily get loans from credit unions with rated between 1.5 and 2%. Even big banks like BofA are offering around 2.6%. On a 1.5% loan, you will pay about 6.5% interest during the first year, and a total interest of a mere 3.9% over the life of the loan.

Originally Posted by Robert A

You're correct in your stats, but more by luck than anything else. $100 invested in the S&P 500 index 10 years ago, with dividends reinvested, but no taxes or expenses, would be worth $196 today. It's worth noting, however, that 10 years ago was late 2002, which was near the market bottom.

Also worth noting that $100 in 2002 is about $129 2012 dollars.

Worth noting too that if you invested in a Nasdaq index in 2000, you are still down

Okay, so you're re-leasing to keep your payment constant. But I would point out that you're effectively paying $608/month. [2,500 +(539 x 36)]/36

That said to come out on this deal relative to a 5 year ownership, you are ignoring the fact that interest and depreciation costs typically decline with age. Of course, if BMW wants to move inventory, they might hide incentives in their lease programs, and that of course favors your plan. But it doesn't always work that way.

What's also missing from your arithmetic is that instead of trading in a 57 month old car, you can sell it to a private party for substantially more. As cars age, the gap between private party and dealer wholesale widens.

I keep my cars for a long time, and here's where I have come out on resale. Keep in mind that I never trade in:

2001 530i. Cost 44k, SP after 6 years and 51k miles, 21.5k.
1994 325is. Cost 31k, SP after 7 years and 70k miles, 15k.

If I owned your 328i, I'm pretty sure after five years of ownership, I'd recover far more than 25% of the original cost.

=boltjaM3s;7220242]No, on a 36 month lease.

As I said in the original post, the BUYER keeps the car to the US average of 57 months. the LEASER is into his second lease when the 57 month point is hit and the comparison is made.

My dealer paid the tax. I am a good enough negotiator to get the same discounts ($1000 test drive, $300 app, pull ahead, repeat customer, etc.) on the second lease. If the car with the same options costs more than $539 in 2016 I'll remove an option to remain at $539.

There is no smoking gun here. Unless you keep a purchased car for more than 7 years, leasing is the superior option on many levels.

BJ

Also worth noting that using auto financing to invest in the stock market is a silly exercise! You have to compare like risk.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Also worth noting that $100 in 2002 is about $129 2012 dollars.

Worth noting too that if you invested in a Nasdaq index in 2000, you are still down

Originally Posted by Robert A

Okay, so you're re-leasing to keep your payment constant.

But in simple terms, you're effectively paying $608/month. [2,500 +(539 x 36)]

To come out on this deal relative to a 5 year ownership, you have ignored the fact that interest and depreciation costs typically decline with age.

What's also missing from your arithmetic is that instead of trading in a 57 month old car, you can sell it to a private party for substantially more. As cars age, the gap between private party and dealer wholesale widens.

On the monthly payment side, you're right, I'm paying $608 per month because of the $2500 down payment but that was in my original math, just outside the monthly total instead of in it.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the Buyer can get $2000 to $3000 more in value than I had forecasted in the original post. That's fair, not trade-in, private sale, I get that.

What that'll show is that it's either break-even (both the Buyer and the Leaser had an out of pocket around $36,000 over 57 months) or the Buyer has an advantage of a couple thousand dollars in that 57 month span.

I don't think I'm out of school by saying that to someone looking to drive a $50,000 luxury car a "loss" of $3000 over 4¾ years isn't enough money to push them towards Buying over Leasing. That's $53 a month. Not a lot of money to ensure that you're in two new cars, always under warranty, no resale hassles, etc.

BJ

You're not out of school although I still think a 5 year old 328i is going to be worth far more than what you think.

But I believe the math works in your favor, only for the time being, because interest rates are very low and car manufacturers are using lease programs to create hidden incentives. Once that changes, it'll be a different story.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No one needs to suffer in old cars, no one needs hefty monthly payments. Just lease already.

We can disagree on the numbers, but I think we can all agree on this: no one is arguing that because it will cost you less in the long run you should buy instead of lease. That is a completely different issue, akin to arguing that you should buy an Accord instead of a 3.

No one needs to argue that leasing costs the same as buying to justify their choice.

Originally Posted by niddin

Well maybe you just got better wheeling a dealing and flashing that Rolex/wife/muscles. Because the MY 2013 was $1600 more than the MY2012 and in a month the price is going up another $350.

They are doing a mid-year price increase?

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

They are doing a mid-year price increase?

I think the prices will hike a few hundred on Jan 1. They've been doing this for a few years now.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

For that to be true, the interest rate has to be about 25%.

You can easily get loans from credit unions with rated between 1.5 and 2%. Even big banks like BofA are offering around 2.6%. On a 1.5% loan, you will pay about 6.5% interest during the first year, and a total interest of a mere 3.9% over the life of the loan.

Not 70% interest people. 70% of each monthly payment goes to interest. Have a bank, even those offering 2% interest, give you a payment schedule. Car loans work exactly the same as home loans. Watch how interest and principal work. Your payoff amount does not go down in equal amounts.

Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo

Not 70% interest people. 70% of each monthly payment goes to interest. Have a bank, even those offering 2% interest, give you a payment schedule. Car loans work exactly the same as home loans. Watch how interest and principal work. Your payoff amount does not go down in equal amounts.

I'm lost. Most vehicle loans in this country are amortized over 60 months, right? If so, how can 70% of monthly payment be interest? Are you referring to sub-prime lending?

Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo

Not 70% interest people. 70% of each monthly payment goes to interest. Have a bank, even those offering 2% interest, give you a payment schedule. Car loans work exactly the same as home loans. Watch how interest and principal work. Your payoff amount does not go down in equal amounts.

Honestly man, you are just really bad at math and some of these concepts. I've already explained to you that one would pay ~10% of their first year's payment in interest, at the rates/amounts in the example. Not 70% of their payments go to interest, 10%. And the other 90% goes to principal. Of course that interest percentage decreases every year. I even gave you a link so you could see the amortization schedule yourself.

You failed at this basic concept, and your lease example for my "12 month pseudo lease" was also a total fail, and only reinforced my point. I gave you a very specific example, down to the dollar, on how a traditional purchase can leasing be the most ridiculous waste of money. Yet you're still not getting it.

At least BJ grasps the math. He at least realizes it's a "monthly expense" and while it might not be the last word in saving $50/month here or there, it keeps in a new car, all the time. I can respect that.

Just stick with leasing, man!!!

Originally Posted by SamS

Honestly man, you are just really bad at math and some of these concepts. I've already explained to you that one would pay ~10% of their first year's payment in interest, at the rates/amounts in the example. Not 70% of their payments go to interest, 10%. And the other 90% goes to principal. Of course that interest percentage decreases every year. I even gave you a link so you could see the amortization schedule yourself.

You failed at this basic concept, and your lease example for my "12 month pseudo lease" was also a total fail, and only reinforced my point. I gave you a very specific example, down to the dollar, on how a traditional purchase can leasing be the most ridiculous waste of money. Yet you're still not getting it.

At least BJ grasps the math. He at least realizes it's a "monthly expense" and while it might not be the last word in saving $50/month here or there, it keeps in a new car, all the time. I can respect that.

Just stick with leasing, man!!!

Keep wasting perfectly good money that is better invested elsewhere.

I can guarantee I understand math better than you because you are fixated on trying to prove some point that I never argued. Get over it. Your argument has nothing to do with the discussion this thread is about.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Kelley Blue Book a 2008 328i with 80,000 miles in good condition, it's $12,000 in trade-in value.

http://www.kbb.com/bmw/3-series/2008...&mileage=80000

BJ

80,000 miles in 57 months? Is that what your $539 lease allows, 17k miles per year?

And a 2008 328i with no options like you selected was $33,175. Not exactly equivalent to your $48k car, but then your point is obviously to fudge the numbers as much as possible.