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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #651  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:14 PM
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The best bet is to buy a lease returned car if you do have to purchase for a long-term ownership, considering it will still be a CPO with an extended warranty that has low mileage. This allows you to have the leasee take the 20-40% depreciation within the first 3 years of their ownership of the car.
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  #652  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jagu View Post
Not really, you can just assign the lease on lease trader and you won't be in a worse position than a purchase. Remember that with a lease, in most states you don't pay the full sales tax up front. So, even if you have to give an incentive to unload your lease, you'll still be in a better position than losing 15% of the car's value if you were to sell in 5 months.
I've been watching a friend try to unload his M3 lease on LeaseTrader with little luck. Would it be easier to sell it (if he owned it) than to transfer the lease? How liquid is the lease-trading market vs. the used-car marketing?
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  #653  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:51 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by av98 View Post
The best bet is to buy a lease returned car if you do have to purchase for a long-term ownership, considering it will still be a CPO with an extended warranty that has low mileage. This allows you to have the leasee take the 20-40% depreciation within the first 3 years of their ownership of the car.
So, what you're saying is:

"If you can't afford a BMW, buy one that's already used and keep it for a long time."

Buy a Honda, much smarter decision.

BJ
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  #654  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:52 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
I've been watching a friend try to unload his M3 lease on LeaseTrader with little luck. Would it be easier to sell it (if he owned it) than to transfer the lease? How liquid is the lease-trading market vs. the used-car marketing?
Why are we talking about this in the F30 forum? The E46 forum is just dying for this type of gripping financial conversation.

BJ
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  #655  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
So, what you're saying is:

"If you can't afford a BMW, buy one that's already used and keep it for a long time."

Buy a Honda, much smarter decision.

BJ
No buy one from the suckers that paid for the premium of the badge with a short dedication for an enthusiast car, then enjoy their misfortune of continually leasing w/o any assest appreciation as they rent their way through cars all their life.

By the time they have gone through 3 1/2 cars in 10 years while still continuing to rent, you would own all 3 of yours that can easily go to all your family members w/o any monthly payments.

Last edited by av98; 12-06-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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  #656  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:10 PM
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My situation is a little unique. I work at a company that will buy us a car at 0% finance charge. At the end of the year they deduct 1/2 of the purchase price and we pay this pre-tax out of our year end true up. At the end of the second year they do the same thing. At that point the car is technically mine to sell and keep all the proceeds or just keep driving until I feel like sellingExample, I purchased a 2008 550i last November 2011 for about $37k. Paid 3% sales tax but this was deducted from my income pre tax. Last month I had $18,500 taken out of my year end settlement on a pretax basis. Next yer the same amount will come out and then the car is free and clear to me.

My problem is I get an itch every 2 years to get something different. I have to sell the car and I have the option of offsetting a new/used car I buy with these proceeds or just pocket it and have the new/used car price deducted from my income over the next 2 years (pretax of course). My company said if I decide to lease my lease payments wold also be treated as pre-tax. Therefore, I am seriously debating leasing but I really am doing okay on the purchase since I buy used and sell for equal or more than my net outlay based on the tax savings. Any tips on continuing to buy vs. lease? I don't I d picking up a 1-3 year old car. Remember no interest is charged to me and the purchase price plus TTL all pre-tax. Tks
I'm not trying to blow off your serious question but I'm not qualified to answer and I'd take any advice given in passing as just one other way to look at things. You clearly seem to be in the type of income bracket where you can and should have your tax professional who can analyze the two scenarios for your exact situation. If you tax person doesn't seem up to it, perhaps you need someone a bit better suited for you.

I recently went through a complex investment (complex for me anyway) that was totally new territory from what my finances have consisted of in previous years. My tax guy was unimpressive in terms of the advice and insight they seemed to have - so I moved on to someone new who has been a rockstar for me so far. A good tax accountant can easily be free to you in net.

Last edited by akaMomo; 12-06-2012 at 11:12 PM.
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  #657  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by av98 View Post
No buy one from the suckers that paid for the premium of the badge with a short dedication for an enthusiast car, then enjoy their misfortune of continually leasing w/o any assest appreciation as they rent their way through cars all their life.

By the time they have gone through 3 1/2 cars in 10 years while still continuing to rent, you would own all 3 of yours that can easily go to all your family members w/o any monthly payments.
So your oldest car by this merit will be on its 8th year, so yeah it goes to uncle Joe who cannot afford the upkeep on it but enjoys the no payment option.

I am not gonna touch on the asset appreciation bit since obviously you are giving away classics
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Last edited by lqaddict; 12-07-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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  #658  
Old 12-07-2012, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
So your oldest car by this merit will be on its 8th year, so yeah it goes to uncle Joe who cannot afford the upkeep on it but enjoys the no payment option.

I am not gonna touch on the asset appreciation bit since obviously you are giving away classics
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Most people who keep these enthusiast cars can DIY or wrench on them. Also having friends at the shop who service them at Indy BMW shops doesn't hurt or have access to a mechanic shop.
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  #659  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:34 AM
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The modern car is so complex, with so much electronic crap, that I think it's too risky to own one out of warranty.
Agree that this is the case with BMW -- but I don't think it's true for the Japanese marques like Toyota and Honda. At ten years, at least according to Edmunds and NADA, the value of a Toyota Camry SE V6 is roughly the same as that of a E46 BMW 325i -- both cars with similar equipment and mileage. That's not because a Camry is more fun to drive than a BMW.

Based on my experience with the BMW poltergeists so far, I did not want to own one of these puppies out of warranty. So I bought the 7/70 extended warranty on my E91.

I'll probably buy another Eurocar and drive Eurocars until they make us buy electric cars, but it's because I love the feel and handling of German cars, not because they're reliable. I pay cash for my cars in part because it keeps me from being too spendy, and in part because I like to "tailor" my new cars to my wants and needs. I would not be comfortable taking my Sawzall to a car I didn't own.
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  #660  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:59 AM
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I've been practicing employee benefits law for 25 years, and I don't know of any way you could pay for a personal car on a pre-tax basis (if by pre-tax you are referring to income and employment taxes). The only two Code sections that permit a choice between cash and another benefit (which is effectively what you describe) are Section 401(k) and Section 125, but neither would allow you to choose between current cash or a personal car. Your employer is doing something very odd.

Sorry. Goofed up the quote. This was in response to ntocamping

Last edited by gweeta; 12-07-2012 at 05:33 AM.
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  #661  
Old 12-07-2012, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
So, what you're saying is:

"If you can't afford a BMW, buy one that's already used and keep it for a long time."

Buy a Honda, much smarter decision.

BJ
No, that's not what he's saying.
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  #662  
Old 12-07-2012, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by av98 View Post
The best bet is to buy a lease returned car if you do have to purchase for a long-term ownership, considering it will still be a CPO with an extended warranty that has low mileage. This allows you to have the leasee take the 20-40% depreciation within the first 3 years of their ownership of the car.
My problem with this is that BMW will take a $30,000 trade in and put a CPO sticker on it, then ask $38k. I don't see a lot of savings there.
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  #663  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by volsfan0911 View Post
Since I'm a small business owner it's a no brainer - leasing works well for me. My only gripe with it is living in Maryland where I have to fork over sales tax on the entire purchase price rather than most states that only charge sales tax on the leased portion. Otherwise, since financing is so cheap now, I'd go with Navy Fed (who owns my house and everything in it anyway) and 1.79% APR.
I guess I will not be leasing the new F32
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  #664  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by gweeta View Post
I've been practicing employee benefits law for 25 years, and I don't know of any way you could pay for a personal car on a pre-tax basis (if by pre-tax you are referring to income and employment taxes). The only two Code sections that permit a choice between cash and another benefit (which is effectively what you describe) are Section 401(k) and Section 125, but neither would allow you to choose between current cash or a personal car. Your employer is doing something very odd.

Sorry. Goofed up the quote. This was in response to ntocamping
Couldn't put everything in the email so let me clarify. The car is titled to my company. After 2 years I own it but it remains titled to my company. When I sell it I get all the money from the sale. I have to pay for personal mileage and they report that to the IRS every year. however, since I own 2 other cars I have VERY little personal mileage on this car
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  #665  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:01 PM
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Maybe the real magic is an inflated C(either cap cost or purchase price), so BMW wins whichever way we go.
Surprisingly not.

BMW manages around a 10% profit margin. And Mercedes is jealous because they manage half of that!

When you think about the amount of time, effort, raw materials, fuel, and other environmental impact involved in the process of building a vehicle and shipping it over here for such a slim margin, it really makes the entire thing seem like a massive waste.
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  #666  
Old 12-08-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by av98 View Post
The best bet is to buy a lease returned car if you do have to purchase for a long-term ownership, considering it will still be a CPO with an extended warranty that has low mileage. This allows you to have the leasee take the 20-40% depreciation within the first 3 years of their ownership of the car.
first you need to understand how lease works before typing here... leasee "takes depreciation" on what the residual value is, NOT the whole car amount, he also pays tax on residual amount not the whole car price.. but in reality leasee is leasing and paying monthly for what he uses, depreciation value is more for a bmw financial(who owns that car) and people who finance... Recently I had a car that was making weird whistling sounds on and off, dealer took apart that car like 10 times and still couldn't figure it out, so they pulled me out of that lease and got me into brand spanking new one... now, they cleaned my old car and put it for sale, and a person like you will go and buy it, who is the sucker here? you will not know the problem is there, because it's on and off and when you do find out you'll be stuck with it for a long time while paying a good amount... I really hate explaining this over and over to people like you because you guys don't want to understand and want to believe how your 10 year old car has no payments...
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  #667  
Old 12-08-2012, 10:56 AM
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lease makes perfect sense for people who can follow the rules of the lease.from watching this thread for weeks this really comes down to a personal choice

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  #668  
Old 12-08-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dpwr View Post
first you need to understand how lease works before typing here... leasee "takes depreciation" on what the residual value is, NOT the whole car amount, he also pays tax on residual amount not the whole car price.. but in reality leasee is leasing and paying monthly for what he uses, depreciation value is more for a bmw financial(who owns that car) and people who finance... Recently I had a car that was making weird whistling sounds on and off, dealer took apart that car like 10 times and still couldn't figure it out, so they pulled me out of that lease and got me into brand spanking new one... now, they cleaned my old car and put it for sale, and a person like you will go and buy it, who is the sucker here? you will not know the problem is there, because it's on and off and when you do find out you'll be stuck with it for a long time while paying a good amount... I really hate explaining this over and over to people like you because you guys don't want to understand and want to believe how your 10 year old car has no payments...
I sure wouldn't enjoy paying all that lease money for a car I have to take to the dealer 10 times. There's risk either way.
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  #669  
Old 12-08-2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Most people who keep these enthusiast cars can DIY or wrench on them. Also having friends at the shop who service them at Indy BMW shops doesn't hurt or have access to a mechanic shop.
It's not just "it doesn't hurt" to service the car outside dealerships to make long term ownership financially worthwhile, it is a must. This applies to even for lower end brands like VW, and probably even Honda and Toyota. Dealerships are so expensive that that you might as well sell your car and buy a new one if you are going to maintain them there. Long term owners have to deal with certain types of services, such as new shock absorbers, brakes, batteries, tires, transmission/coolant changes, CV joints for FWD cars, plugs, etc., for which dealers charge waaaaay too much.
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  #670  
Old 12-08-2012, 01:01 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by dpwr View Post
he also pays tax on residual amount not the whole car price..
Not true in every state.


Quote:
... now, they cleaned my old car and put it for sale, and a person like you will go and buy it, who is the sucker here? you will not know the problem is there, because it's on and off and when you do find out you'll be stuck with it for a long time while paying a good amount... I really hate explaining this over and over to people like you because you guys don't want to understand and want to believe how your 10 year old car has no payments...
That's why I won't buy a used car. There is always a risk factor. You don't know why it was sold. You don't know how it was maintained, and more importantly, how it was driven. Finally, I don't want to smell the BO or the fart molecules of the previous owner embedded in the seats

Finally, while the leasing premium is not that huge for normal mileage drivers, buying is a significant benefit for very low mileage drivers or for very high mileage drivers.

Last edited by bmw_or_audi; 12-08-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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  #671  
Old 12-08-2012, 01:04 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by Majikthese42 View Post
Agree that this is the case with BMW -- but I don't think it's true for the Japanese marques like Toyota and Honda. At ten years, at least according to Edmunds and NADA, the value of a Toyota Camry SE V6 is roughly the same as that of a E46 BMW 325i -- both cars with similar equipment and mileage. That's not because a Camry is more fun to drive than a BMW.
Japanese cars don't have any less electronics. They too have ECUs, various electronic sensors, complex emission systems, etc. These things don't go wrong too often. I think that nowadays the perceived reliability differences are far bigger than they are in reality. Take Honda: paint problems, brake problems, and transmission problems are not uncommon.
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  #672  
Old 12-08-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dpwr View Post
first you need to understand how lease works before typing here... leasee "takes depreciation" on what the residual value is, NOT the whole car amount, he also pays tax on residual amount not the whole car price.. but in reality leasee is leasing and paying monthly for what he uses, depreciation value is more for a bmw financial(who owns that car) and people who finance... Recently I had a car that was making weird whistling sounds on and off, dealer took apart that car like 10 times and still couldn't figure it out, so they pulled me out of that lease and got me into brand spanking new one... now, they cleaned my old car and put it for sale, and a person like you will go and buy it, who is the sucker here? you will not know the problem is there, because it's on and off and when you do find out you'll be stuck with it for a long time while paying a good amount... I really hate explaining this over and over to people like you because you guys don't want to understand and want to believe how your 10 year old car has no payments...
Dunno about you but that shows up in the BMW service records. My dealer is also not unscrupulous like most but I guess it helps to get to know your SA so you don't get ripped off. Ymmv, but having dealt with Lexus and BMW dealers, both have been satisfactory and honest. Lexus was also more accommodating and willing to cover more than BMW.

Plus in CA we have laws against these types of issues.
http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon

Also, thank god for these forums and knowledgable Indy mechanics. I haven't run into any issues that were not resolved with a combination of all these resources.
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  #673  
Old 12-08-2012, 02:59 PM
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Dunno about you but that shows up in the BMW service records.
Which you are not entitled to see, leaving you in the dark unless the prior owner chooses to share them or your SA is ignorant of or ignores the law.
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  #674  
Old 12-08-2012, 05:53 PM
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Which you are not entitled to see, leaving you in the dark unless the prior owner chooses to share them or your SA is ignorant of or ignores the law.
Again it depends on how honest your dealership is or how well you know your SA. I've never had any problems from my dealership getting these. I was honest and always explain I keep a maintenance worksheet for all my cars then show them my previous copies.
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  #675  
Old 12-08-2012, 09:47 PM
lacarnut lacarnut is offline
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Originally Posted by dpwr View Post
first you need to understand how lease works before typing here... leasee "takes depreciation" on what the residual value is, NOT the whole car amount, he also pays tax on residual amount not the whole car price.. but in reality leasee is leasing and paying monthly for what he uses, depreciation value is more for a bmw financial(who owns that car) and people who finance... Recently I had a car that was making weird whistling sounds on and off, dealer took apart that car like 10 times and still couldn't figure it out, so they pulled me out of that lease and got me into brand spanking new one... now, they cleaned my old car and put it for sale, and a person like you will go and buy it, who is the sucker here? you will not know the problem is there, because it's on and off and when you do find out you'll be stuck with it for a long time while paying a good amount... I really hate explaining this over and over to people like you because you guys don't want to understand and want to believe how your 10 year old car has no payments...
This is my first lease. So, unlike you that knows every thing about leases, I would like to present you with some facts.
1. Everyone's situation may be different
2. I like driving new cars and have no interest in buying a used car
3. It makes sense to buy new if you can write it off
4. At the end of 39 months, I am giving it back to the dealer cause I want something different
5. Putting little or no money down payment makes no sense to me because of the interest being charged
6. My notes on a new 335I coupe are $417 per month total with $4.7 down payment on a $50k car. My total payout is $21k. My present car is paid for and is worth $27k.
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