Doesn't Anyone Buy Anymore?

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

Now coming from a youngin' the thing I like about owning is the fact that if S* ever hit the fan, the only thing that would stop me from driving is insurance, and gas.

This logic does not mean I have a panic room, and large stockpiles of weapons for a possible zombie attack

I highly recommend this for zombie apocalypse (at least that's what I put on the order form);



As for someone taking my car away after an apocalypse, I rather have a feeling that's not going to be a major concern... and in all likelihood we'd be driving around in my wife's SUV with a bunch of gas cans strapped to the top, at least until the zombies got us.

Originally Posted by Chris90

You have 10s of millions in home equity?

LOL, I r suck at math today apparently. Let's just say our house is not underwater because we didn't buy in an overbuilt market.

Originally Posted by Chris90

What kind of lease can I get for $300/month? A Honda Accord?

To you the car may be an appliance, or a set of shiny earrings, but to some of us, it's also entertainment, which is why we're not eager to spend more money to get into a less entertaining new car. If I was gonna blow $600/month, it would be on a slightly used 911.

You can't have it both ways, Chris.

You can't say "Leasing cars is foolish, puts suckers into cars they can't afford!"

And then say "I buy the same car and keep it for 10 years so it only costs me $300 a month and I can't afford a BMW monthly lease for that price!"

Don't you see? You've got it backwards. It's the own-and-keep-forever crew that's cheating, that's getting into a $50,000 German luxury car they can't afford. They keep the thing forever, past its shelf life, and say that they're able to "afford" it. It's the leasers that are paying what they can afford per month to always be in new cars who are doing it the right way, getting exactly what they can afford, it's always in style, it's always under warranty.

So, fact is, if you're averaging $300 a month by keeping your BMW forever then, yes, you should be leasing a Honda as you are holding onto a car you can't afford way too long.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

You can't have it both ways, Chris.

You can't say "Leasing cars is foolish, puts suckers into cars they can't afford!"

And then say "I buy the same car and keep it for 10 years so it only costs me $300 a month and I can't afford a BMW monthly lease for that price!"

Don't you see? You've got it backwards. It's the own-and-keep-forever crew that's cheating, that's getting into a $50,000 German luxury car they can't afford. They keep the thing forever, past its shelf life, and say that they're able to "afford" it. It's the leasers that are paying what they can afford per month to always be in new cars who are doing it the right way, getting exactly what they can afford, it's always in style, it's always under warranty.

I didn't say either one. Leasing does let people who can't afford a new BMW get into one, true, not for everyone of course, and I've no idea the proportion.

And I never said I couldn't afford $600/month, I said I'd rather pay $300 for a car I already own, that's more fun to drive than the new 3 series.

Now if I couldn't afford a $600/month car, I could lease one (foolishly), or I could buy a used 3 series for $300/month or whatever I can afford.

You seem to be saying if you can physically make a $600/month payment, you can afford it. That's not the definition of afford.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

You can't have it both ways, Chris.

You can't say "Leasing cars is foolish, puts suckers into cars they can't afford!"

And then say "I buy the same car and keep it for 10 years so it only costs me $300 a month and I can't afford a BMW monthly lease for that price!"

Don't you see? You've got it backwards. It's the own-and-keep-forever crew that's cheating, that's getting into a $50,000 German luxury car they can't afford. They keep the thing forever, past its shelf life, and say that they're able to "afford" it. It's the leasers that are paying what they can afford per month to always be in new cars who are doing it the right way, getting exactly what they can afford, it's always in style, it's always under warranty.

So, fact is, if you're averaging $300 a month by keeping your BMW forever then, yes, you should be leasing a Honda as you are holding onto a car you can't afford way too long.

BJ

What about us frugal guys?

I bought my car 5 years ago. It is all paid off. I will keep it till it is no longer cost effective to keep it running, just as I did with all of my other cars.

In the 4 years it took to pay off the car, I spent more per year on trips and vacations. It is just a matter of setting your own priorities.

I fall in love with my cars and never want to get rid of them, and, basically, only do so when they cost more to keep up than they are worth.

In the year my car has been off warranty and maintenance, I have spent less than one month's lease payment on this years maintenance.

You make a valid point, and I don't think anyone other than BJ is arguing that buying and keeping long term is a poor choice... it's ALWAYS less expensive in the long run unless you have a nightmare lemon of a vehicle.

However, I will actually say that leasing has another advantage. With a leased car I don't have the emotional attachment and obsessing over every ding, scratch and rock chip that I have with a car I am going to keep long term. Not to mention all the aggravation of making sure that each and every servicing is done the right way, as I will be on the hook for the costs if something eventually goes wrong.

Quite liberating actually.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Well, I have more than that of course in my investment account (not to mention 401K(s), home equity (hundreds of 100K)) etc, but not going to share specifics here. My wife and I do "well" but don't consider ourselves wealthy.

I am frankly highly doubtful that for many people $50,000 is a "trivial" purchase as you imply, and most of those people probably aren't prospective 3-series customers. If you are that person then perhaps this is all comical to you.

I'm comfortable with the decisions I made, so I'll leave it at that.

Not "trivial", I said inconsequential. It's all relative, and why not buy a 3 Series BMW as it's a very nice car. Just because someone may have Rolls Royce dollars doesn't mean they need to drive a Rolls Royce.

And no, I don't find anything "comical", as I started out with nothing when I graduated from college and know what it is to budget. Actually, I knew how to budget extremely well and thus the reason I no longer have to. That, and my wife and I worked our butts off with each of our own companies, took very few vacations, and, as I said, managed our money very well.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Well, I have more than that of course in my investment account (not to mention 401K(s), home equity (hundreds of 100K)) etc, but not going to share specifics here. My wife and I do "well" but don't consider ourselves wealthy.

I am frankly highly doubtful that for many people $50,000 is a "trivial" purchase as you imply, and most of those people probably aren't prospective 3-series customers. If you are that person then perhaps this is all comical to you.

I'm comfortable with the decisions I made, so I'll leave it at that.

To a person like my or you VOIP its not 50,000, its 7,500 per year. That is why I said if you have you house paid off, you have your investments you are saving 20% or more of your income/dividends/earnings to you really care if you spend 7,500 on a car, year after year? I don't. I get to drive a nice car, latest technology and safety features, don't have to worry about maintenance, breakdown etc.

Originally Posted by beden1

Not "trivial", I said inconsequential. It's all relative, and why not buy a 3 Series BMW as it's a very nice car. Just because someone may have Rolls Royce dollars doesn't mean they need to drive a Rolls Royce.

And no, I don't find anything "comical", as I started out with nothing when I graduated from college and know what it is to budget. Actually, I knew how to budget extremely well and thus the reason I no longer have to. That, and my wife and I worked our butts off with each our own companies, took very few vacations, and, as I said, managed our money very well.

Definition of inconsequential;

in·con·se·quen·tial***8194; ***8194;[in-kon-si-kwen-shuhl, in-kon-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of little or no importance; insignificant; trivial.
2.
inconsequent; illogical.
3.
irrelevant.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

You make a valid point, and I don't think anyone other than BJ is arguing that buying and keeping long term is a poor choice... it's ALWAYS less expensive in the long run unless you have a nightmare lemon of a vehicle.

However, I will actually say that leasing has another advantage. With a leased car I don't have the emotional attachment and obsessing over every ding, scratch and rock chip that I have with a car I am going to keep long term. Not to mention all the aggravation of making sure that each and every servicing is done the right way, as I will be on the hook for the costs if something eventually goes wrong.

Quite liberating actually.

Agree I'd say if you knew with 100% certainty that financial situations would never change, I'd have a hard time arguing against a lease (other than being restricted to a mile limit), and I actually might start , my problem is I'm young and even with a S* ton of liquidity that doesn't seem to translate to getting good rates on anything

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Definition of inconsequential;

Relative to the whole then. But, I guess my point is lost on you? You could double check with Suze Orman, but I think she would agree with me regarding your situation.

Originally Posted by beden1

Relative to the whole then. But I guess my point is lost on you?

I totally get your point. The smugness might be another matter entirely.

Originally Posted by Chris90

What kind of lease can I get for $300/month? A Honda Accord?

To you the car may be an appliance, or a set of shiny earrings, but to some of us, it's also entertainment, which is why we're not eager to spend more money to get into a less entertaining new car. If I was gonna blow $600/month, it would be on a slightly used 911.

Chris if you can find a slightly used 911 for 600/month (without putting down 30,000 dollars or more) run to buy it brother.

I have both leased and financed all my cars for the last 28 years -14 cars at all and counting. Financially to me, it does not make any difference as I sell privately all my cars. 100% of the time I get the downpayment back at least, sometimes I get some some extra money. There is no distinction between a leased or financed car mod-wise to me: the wheels, brakes, audio are always upgraded with aftermarket. And still they are sold fine.

I do not see any of my cars as commodities, utilities or just transportation. I have to really like and enjoy what I get. Nevertheless, I can change cars like t-shirts and move on to the next one easily. If there is a finance deal too good to pass, I will take it -only after trying to get the car as close to invoice as possible. On the other hand, I do not see leasing as getting a car that I cannot "afford", I see it as getting the car that I want... for now.

I think that this thread is going too deep into something that it is very simple.

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

Agree I'd say if you knew with 100% certainty that financial situations would never change, I'd have a hard time arguing against a lease (other than being restricted to a mile limit), and I actually might start , my problem is I'm young and even with a S* ton of liquidity that doesn't seem to translate to getting good rates on anything

I don't know anything with 100% certainty and doubt anyone does. Hedging your bets so to speak is always a smart move. In my specific situation both my wife and I are "high" earners (well, compared to most people, financial/executive people live on their own planet) at least according to the IRS.... so, the loss of either one of our incomes is not likely to cause anything dramatic to happen.

If I was the sole breadwinner in the family I would likely be more cautious financially with a big ticket purchase...

Naaaaa... I'd get it anyway.

Originally Posted by Kamdog

What about us frugal guys?

I bought my car 5 years ago. It is all paid off. I will keep it till it is no longer cost effective to keep it running, just as I did with all of my other cars.

In the 4 years it took to pay off the car, I spent more per year on trips and vacations. It is just a matter of setting your own priorities.

+1 It takes us a year or two to save enough to buy a new 3 series, that means my wife and I have to tack on another year or two to our working years.

I couldn't live without taking nice vacations, but I can definitely live without a new car, at least til I get totally bored with mine (I'm almost there actually).

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

I totally get your point. The smugness might be another matter entirely.

I don't see how I was being smug, but you are also entitled to your opinion.

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

I highly recommend this for zombie apocalypse (at least that's what I put on the order form);



As for someone taking my car away after an apocalypse, I rather have a feeling that's not going to be a major concern... and in all likelihood we'd be driving around in my wife's SUV with a bunch of gas cans strapped to the top, at least until the zombies got us.

I have two SAIGAs, bought 8 months ago. the 12 gauge semi-auto and the .308 rifle. Still in the box. I am looking for a good gunsmith to modify them with the new trigger, stock, and a few other things. Great guns for the money btw.

Originally Posted by windsor027

Chris if you can find a slightly used 911 for 600/month (without putting down 30,000 dollars or more) run to buy it brother.

$50k buys a nice 997, I figured that's the equivalent of buying a 3 series in terms of cost, if not actual payments. Maintenance will be a lot higher, but depreciation will be a lot lower (maybe).

Well unfortunately Tromix is sold out on order slots until 2015, but there are plenty of other companies out there that mod the Saiga 12G.

Originally Posted by Kamdog

What about us frugal guys?

I bought my car 5 years ago. It is all paid off. I will keep it till it is no longer cost effective to keep it running, just as I did with all of my other cars.

In the 4 years it took to pay off the car, I spent more per year on trips and vacations. It is just a matter of setting your own priorities.

I fall in love with my cars and never want to get rid of them, and, basically, only do so when they cost more to keep up than they are worth.

In the year my car has been off warranty and maintenance, I have spent less than one month's lease payment on this years maintenance.

if you paid it off in 4 years the you were paying a bigger monthly payment than a lease payment. I guess you are saying now you can start taking nice vacations because you don't have ANY payment. That is logical.

But that has been my point and BJs all along. As long as the lease payments don't affect your ability to save/invest, and generally to do all the things you want to do then why not have a new car every three years.

Originally Posted by windsor027

But that has been my point and BJs all along. As long as the lease payments don't affect your ability to save/invest, and generally to do all the things you want to do then why not have a new car every three years.

I think we all agree on this - leasing is good for those who could afford to pay cash or finance, but prefer the numbers or ease of leasing. Not good for those who are living paycheck to paycheck, and think a $500 lease is the same cost as a $500/mo 5 year loan (a lot of people do think this way).

Originally Posted by Chris90

I think we all agree on this - leasing is good for those who could afford to pay cash or finance, but prefer the numbers or ease of leasing. Not good for those who are living paycheck to paycheck, and think a $500 lease is the same cost as a $500/mo 5 year loan (a lot of people do think this way).

Ultimately what people can "afford" is dictated by their understanding of finances (often poor) as well as what banks say they can "afford" (often very poor barometer of reality). A banks goal is to have you leveraged to the hilt with no money saved for the future, because they could care less if you can ever retire, they just want you paying interest forever... ever have a Bank tell you that you're a "bad customer" because you pay your notes off early and never incur extra interest or late fees? Yeah, that's happened to me with certain nameless (Chase Bank) banks in Manhattan.

It's not hard to understand this IF you have a basic grasp of economics. Remember also that we think for the last 20 years that it's far more important to teach kids computer skills than how to balance a checkbook.

Originally Posted by 55

Just curious: if you guys have cash to buy, would you lease, and if yes, what is the reason? I've never leased, but I am not saying I am right, I might consider one day.

First; I'm kind of amazed that this thread got resurrected from the dead... and I know I posted in here way back when too... but here goes.

I did have the cash to buy my car last year when I wrote the paperwork; had about $60K mostly wrapped up in stocks. While said stocks had taken a bit of a hammering in the preceding two years, back then they were holding their value or inching a little higher. As a result, I made the decision to lease based upon the following facts;

1. I don't tend to keep cars anyway. A couple of years and I move on. I have ADD when it comes to vehicles, and I happen to like fast German cars.
2. For the three years I would drive the leased car, the maintenance would be mostly covered by BMW and thus I had minimal extra expense there.
3. At the end of the three years, if I decide I really liked the car I could buy out the lease (still might). I was undecided about the DCT having only had a couple of test drives so really didn't want to commit to a long-term DCT car if I didn't like it.
4. I am finding in recent years I want to keep my investments more mobile and flexible. A leased car is relatively easily reassigned with minimal or no extra outlay, whereas selling a car in the first three years opens up a world of hurt.

So the result? Well, my stocks made a lot more money since then... some surprisingly so. Had I cashed out those stocks for my ~$45K car I would have made only 25% of the gains in the stock market that I did, and I would have lost another ~$10K in depreciation on the car. That just didn't seem like a good value proposition to me, so I chose to lease.

My longer term goals with money are to change the structure of my investments in the next 18 months, and quite probably continue leasing cars for the forseeable future. Having said that, I REALLY do like my 135i and may actually buy out the lease (or my girlfriend might... if we can keep her Jag running that long!)

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Ultimately what people can "afford" is dictated by their understanding of finances (often poor) as well as what banks say they can "afford" (often very poor barometer of reality). A banks goal is to have you leveraged to the hilt with no money saved for the future, because they could care less if you can ever retire, they just want you paying interest forever... ever have a Bank tell you that you're a "bad customer" because you pay your notes off early and never incur extra interest or late fees? Yeah, that's happened to me with certain nameless (Chase Bank) banks in Manhattan.

It's not hard to understand this IF you have a basic grasp of economics. Remember also that we think for the last 20 years that it's far more important to teach kids computer skills than how to balance a checkbook.

I did have one guy get mean with me on the phone then he saw my parent linked account which happened to be a premiere account and he changed his tude on the fly