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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #26  
Old 02-29-2012, 08:51 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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So I guess that 358 HP number is an at the flywheel number that they figured out a drivetrain loss via a dyno run? I say that since the 265 factory rating is at the motor right? Personally I think I prefer to see a dyno chart of the same car stock v. with the Renntech tune and preferably on the same day/dyno.
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  #27  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:19 AM
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Axel61 Axel61 is online now
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@ BuraQ, Harmut is a COOL Dude and always willing to assist you, Lenny my man is a Guru his 335i I understand is a MONSTER. BuraQ you wont go wrong with RENNtech Ive used them twice with no regrets!!
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  #28  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:21 AM
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Axel61 Axel61 is online now
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@snipe I did my before and after runs i clocked @ 230 on wheels before tune and 300 on wheels after the tune, figure out the math lets say 65 ponies more what do you thinK? Buuyyaaa!!!!
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  #29  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:30 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by Axel61 View Post
@snipe I did my before and after runs i clocked @ 230 on wheels before tune and 300 on wheels after the tune, figure out the math lets say 65 ponies more what do you thinK? Buuyyaaa!!!!
Which also means about 10 rwhp less than a JBD. But more importantly to me they all seem to lack torque readings.
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  #30  
Old 02-29-2012, 09:34 AM
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Axel61 Axel61 is online now
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sorry i cannot help you on the torque numbers, as i recall I did my runs with the DSC track off not done with the DSC COMPLETELY OFF. And BTW these guys did not know how to get tq numbers since NO ONE had ever done a DIESEL dyno before!!! Will try to get another run in the future meanwhile Im getting ready for the 1/2 run to held on March 24, hopefully I will have the CORRECT Amsoil filter on this time, will keep everyone posted ok!!
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  #31  
Old 02-29-2012, 10:52 AM
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Where's stugout when you need him?
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  #32  
Old 02-29-2012, 07:02 PM
HIREN HIREN is offline
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I guess I haven't been reading up, I didn't realize JBD gave us 300+whp. Someone has confirmed this?
I can feel the difference, but it doesn't feel like that much. My track times don't show it.
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  #33  
Old 02-29-2012, 07:34 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by HIREN View Post
I guess I haven't been reading up, I didn't realize JBD gave us 300+whp. Someone has confirmed this?
I can feel the difference, but it doesn't feel like that much. My track times don't show it.
I referenced a dyno graph when I made my comment about it making more power. That was the amount for 100%
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  #34  
Old 03-01-2012, 04:22 AM
hotrod2448 hotrod2448 is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
Which also means about 10 rwhp less than a JBD. But more importantly to me they all seem to lack torque readings.
Not necessarily. When you consider the baseline dyno for the JBD was also about 15hp higher than Axel's you could assume that dyno just reads 15hp higher. Which would mean the JBD and renntech make very similar power. unfortunately I've not seen a dyno for the Renntech with torque plotted so I can't comment about the torque it makes.

Last edited by hotrod2448; 03-01-2012 at 04:24 AM.
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  #35  
Old 03-01-2012, 05:15 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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True but that also is why I said originally that I'd prefer to see before and after dyno charts done to the same car and preferably same day. I think most everyone realizes a dyno can be manipulated to post all sorts of numbers. I personally think posting up estimated fwhp numbers like Renntech is "fishy".
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  #36  
Old 03-01-2012, 06:50 AM
hotrod2448 hotrod2448 is offline
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
True but that also is why I said originally that I'd prefer to see before and after dyno charts done to the same car and preferably same day. I think most everyone realizes a dyno can be manipulated to post all sorts of numbers. I personally think posting up estimated fwhp numbers like Renntech is "fishy".
A lot of the larger tuning companies rate by flywheel power. I think it's because most of them regard themselves more as manufacturers (almost like Brabus) and want to people to compare to the OEM rated numbers which are flywheel.

Even if you had a before and after data for the renntech tune you still couldn't draw comparisons to another tune unless you had a good data base of what other tunes or the same car did on that dyno with the other tunes and there just isn't one for the d yet.

Bottom line is that JBD dyno on their page has higher numbers than I've seen a lot of others post, most seem to be in the 270-280 range (settings obviously add a variable to that) and if you are going to discount every other tuners claims you should apply the same logic to it.

There is no reason to think a reflash can't make as much or more power and torque than a plug in module.
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  #37  
Old 03-01-2012, 07:12 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
A lot of the larger tuning companies rate by flywheel power. I think it's because most of them regard themselves more as manufacturers (almost like Brabus) and want to people to compare to the OEM rated numbers which are flywheel.

Even if you had a before and after data for the renntech tune you still couldn't draw comparisons to another tune unless you had a good data base of what other tunes or the same car did on that dyno with the other tunes and there just isn't one for the d yet.

Bottom line is that JBD dyno on their page has higher numbers than I've seen a lot of others post, most seem to be in the 270-280 range (settings obviously add a variable to that) and if you are going to discount every other tuners claims you should apply the same logic to it.

There is no reason to think a reflash can't make as much or more power and torque than a plug in module.
I disagree, if you have a before and after even if for one car it still gives you an idea of expected gains. Seeing a blanket HP rating with no disclaimer it is an estimated flywheel horsepower figure or even how it was derived is just rather foreign to me. But suppose I come from circles where tuners more make statements in rwhp gains and even go so far as to release what dyno adjustments were used when they got those. Also to go past that seeing a before and after chart and ignore the peak numbers also lets you judge any changes to the powerband due to the tune. Of course the chart really would need the torque reading which seems awfully rare to happen when people dyno a 335d.

Actually I have read a number of postings on European forums that give lots of reasons to think a reflash will not give as much gains as whatever we want to call the JBD box. I also have even seen European based shops websites that sell both types of solutions and they even point out the reflash will not have near as much gains.

I am all for reflashing though and I'd certainly do one over a method that simply tricks the factory computer. If I cared about peak power numbers then I'd own a different car.
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  #38  
Old 03-01-2012, 10:14 AM
hotrod2448 hotrod2448 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
I disagree, if you have a before and after even if for one car it still gives you an idea of expected gains. Seeing a blanket HP rating with no disclaimer it is an estimated flywheel horsepower figure or even how it was derived is just rather foreign to me. But suppose I come from circles where tuners more make statements in rwhp gains and even go so far as to release what dyno adjustments were used when they got those. Also to go past that seeing a before and after chart and ignore the peak numbers also lets you judge any changes to the powerband due to the tune. Of course the chart really would need the torque reading which seems awfully rare to happen when people dyno a 335d.

Actually I have read a number of postings on European forums that give lots of reasons to think a reflash will not give as much gains as whatever we want to call the JBD box. I also have even seen European based shops websites that sell both types of solutions and they even point out the reflash will not have near as much gains.

I am all for reflashing though and I'd certainly do one over a method that simply tricks the factory computer. If I cared about peak power numbers then I'd own a different car.
If you understand that dynos can easily be manipulated to state widely varying numbers why would you ignore the baseline charts were 15hp apart before stating one makes more power than the other especially with only a very small sample group and so many other variables (weather, fuel quality, dyno settings, wheel size and weight, etc...) to compare? I'm not trying to be a dick or anything like that (sometimes it's hard to read how someone is saying something on the web), it's just this is the type of stuff that sets off these ridiculous tuner arguments I think we've all seen in the past.

I totally agree that my preference would definitely be that tuners state power to the ground, dyno settings and weather when discussing these things but, we do have an independent dyno from a board member that shows all things considered the Renntech flash makes very similar HP to the JBD. Why argue over it? Some tuners just choose not to provide wheel hp charts and I think it's fair to say some of them are very reputable tuners and some are shady ones that are trying to hide something.

I am interested in what you've read that makes you think a tune is not able to make the power an external module can. The only way I can see that happening is if the flash tuners didn't have access to certain areas of the ECU to remove some type of torque limiting protection that probably might not be an issue for the JBD since it's falsifying some of the input voltages. However, to me that just says these flash tuning isn't where it needs to be yet.

When you consider a flash should have access to all engine parameters (boost, injection timing & duration, cam timing, rail pressure, etc...) there is no way it shouldn't be able to make more power than an external module that has control over one or two parameters.

Last edited by hotrod2448; 03-01-2012 at 11:05 AM.
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  #39  
Old 03-01-2012, 10:21 AM
hotrod2448 hotrod2448 is offline
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I did find another Renntech chart that says the car makes 311hp.

Last edited by hotrod2448; 03-01-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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  #40  
Old 03-01-2012, 10:25 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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I never was trying to engage in an argument on this but clearly has happened so I am exiting the discussion. But to answer your question what I read on Euro forums, sorry but I don't bookmark such things and would have to go googling to find it.
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  #41  
Old 03-01-2012, 11:04 AM
hotrod2448 hotrod2448 is offline
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I never was trying to engage in an argument on this but clearly has happened so I am exiting the discussion. But to answer your question what I read on Euro forums, sorry but I don't bookmark such things and would have to go googling to find it.
I'm not trying to argue, just discussing. Do you remember what it pertained to or what their reasoning was?
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  #42  
Old 03-01-2012, 01:44 PM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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For the record I dyno'd my car a few months ago w/JBD (before exhaust) which was set at about 80% and my peak HP at the wheels was 294 whp. No torque figures because the shop did not have the latest software for the LCI. I suspect the results would be 300 whp or more dialed up to 100%.

Below are the dyno results from a guy I know locally who took his car to Mach V in VA to get dyno'd - they have a real nice set-up and the latest software. He tested the JBD at set point "0" then at 100%.

4th gear:

Run 1: 300.17 WHP, 445.08 WTQ
Run 2: 301.51 WHP, 442.44 WTQ
Run 3: 267.16 WHP, 415.57 WTQ (JBD set to 0%)

He also did some 5th gear pulls.

5th gear:

Run 1: 296.88 WHP, 474.31 WTQ
Run 2: 299.58 WHP, 468.57 WTQ
Run 3: 299.01 WHP, 465.29 WTQ

Last edited by cssnms; 03-01-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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  #43  
Old 03-01-2012, 05:10 PM
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OK, so with JBD (@80%) you saw about a 12-13% increase in Torque and HP?

That is still a bit shy from what the Renntech folks are offering, is it not?
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  #44  
Old 03-01-2012, 05:38 PM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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Originally Posted by Flyingman View Post
OK, so with JBD (@80%) you saw about a 12-13% increase in Torque and HP?

That is still a bit shy from what the Renntech folks are offering, is it not?
13%?! Try more like a 25% increase!

Our cars are rated at 265hp at the crank. Assuming a 20% drivetrain loss stock horsepower at the wheels is approx 212 hp. HP output between the two is pretty close, not sure what the torque curve looks like on the Renntech tune.

Last edited by cssnms; 03-01-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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  #45  
Old 03-02-2012, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
13%?! Try more like a 25% increase!

Our cars are rated at 265hp at the crank. Assuming a 20% drivetrain loss stock horsepower at the wheels is approx 212 hp. HP output between the two is pretty close, not sure what the torque curve looks like on the Renntech tune.
I was looking at this:

4th gear:

Run 1: 300.17 WHP, 445.08 WTQ
Run 2: 301.51 WHP, 442.44 WTQ
Run 3: 267.16 WHP, 415.57 WTQ (JBD set to 0%)


Run 3 with 0% was 267, vs Run 1 and 2 at 300. That is a 33hp increase thus a 12.45% increase.

Am I missing something?
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  #46  
Old 03-02-2012, 04:41 AM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingman View Post
I was looking at this:

4th gear:

Run 1: 300.17 WHP, 445.08 WTQ
Run 2: 301.51 WHP, 442.44 WTQ
Run 3: 267.16 WHP, 415.57 WTQ (JBD set to 0%)


Run 3 with 0% was 267, vs Run 1 and 2 at 300. That is a 33hp increase thus a 12.45% increase.

Am I missing something?
At the "0" setting the JBD is still increasing hp by approx 20 hp's, so that is not a true baseline. I saw a recent dyno of a stock d and hp came in around the mark I mentioned earlier.
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  #47  
Old 03-02-2012, 08:06 AM
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Axel61 Axel61 is online now
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Damn you guys drive me crazy with this, can't we just get along here. LOL Anyway, I went the RENNtech way because of the warranty and because I have used their mods and NEVER failed me. Although expensive, I guess thats what you pay for having a MARQUEE vehicle. So to put it bluntly just buy whatever the hell you like and enjoy it as i am here in SUNNY 85 degree weather in Puerto Rico!!!
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  #48  
Old 03-02-2012, 08:07 AM
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Axel61 Axel61 is online now
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BTW, Chris Dyno and video sound of the EXHAUST system, Yes you're slacking but we still love you as our stepchild, LOL
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  #49  
Old 03-02-2012, 11:53 AM
Talstar Talstar is offline
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I would love to see quarter mile times & speed. Mph increases my favorite way to see if I'm getting my moneys worth.
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  #50  
Old 03-02-2012, 12:34 PM
cssnms cssnms is offline
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Not to change the subject to much but here is a dyno comparison at Mach V of a stock 335d (which tested higher than some others I have seen) and stock 335. Advantage d!



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