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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 02-04-2012, 05:40 PM
jsclarke jsclarke is offline
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Originally Posted by nhs156 View Post
Well, by that logic you should never buy a house... and would probably be better off renting your clothes and any other personal belongings you don't take to the grave.
Na- houses appreciate. Cars don't. I'd love to rent clothes but other than rental Osh-Kosh work uniforms, nobody's offering. (-:
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  #27  
Old 02-04-2012, 05:44 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Originally Posted by sdg1871 View Post
If you are like me and want a new car within the warranty at all times then leasing makes sense. If you like keeping your car until the wheels fall off then buying is the best choice.
Agreed. So in essence, with leasing, you're making payments on a recurring/perpetual basis for the privilege of driving the latest/greatest without ever owning the vehicle. I can see how that would be attractive to some, but it's not the financially prudent thing to do on a long-term basis. And for me, it's not the emotionally prudent thing to do either - as I'd like to "own" my car. I get how it would appeal to those who don't think or act on a long-term basis, though (when it comes to car "ownership").
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  #28  
Old 02-04-2012, 05:46 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Originally Posted by jsclarke View Post
Na- houses appreciate.
Ah yes, those were the days...
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  #29  
Old 02-04-2012, 05:56 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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Originally Posted by nhs156 View Post
Agreed. So in essence, with leasing, you're making payments on a recurring/perpetual basis for the privilege of driving the latest/greatest without ever owning the vehicle. I can see how that would be attractive to some, but it's not the financially prudent thing to do on a long-term basis. And for me, it's not the emotionally prudent thing to do either - as I'd like to "own" my car. I get how it would appeal to those who don't think or act on a long-term basis, though (when it comes to car "ownership").
Some of us like a new car every three years. For those folks, leasing is a great option. Some of us don't want any part of the huge expense if repairing BMW's outside of warranty.
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  #30  
Old 02-04-2012, 07:07 PM
Rohardi Rohardi is offline
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I have never leased a car. My next car will be a leas though. I don't keep cars long term. I like getting a new car every few years, and I'd rather have the smaller payment. If you are the type of person that is going to A. Drive the car in to the ground, and keep it for 15 years then leasing isn't join to be for you. In the long run, it's a personal decision based on what you want out of a car.
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  #31  
Old 02-04-2012, 07:20 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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I have never leased a car. My next car will be a leas though. I don't keep cars long term. I like getting a new car every few years, and I'd rather have the smaller payment. If you are the type of person that is going to A. Drive the car in to the ground, and keep it for 15 years then leasing isn't join to be for you. In the long run, it's a personal decision based on what you want out of a car.
Precisely
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  #32  
Old 02-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Victon Victon is offline
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don't understand all the talk, it's easy: only buy - after 3 years of lease: no money no car. nonsense.

Last edited by Victon; 02-04-2012 at 07:30 PM.
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  #33  
Old 02-04-2012, 07:55 PM
Detrick Detrick is offline
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Originally Posted by nhs156 View Post
Agreed. So in essence, with leasing, you're making payments on a recurring/perpetual basis for the privilege of driving the latest/greatest without ever owning the vehicle. I can see how that would be attractive to some, but it's not the financially prudent thing to do on a long-term basis. And for me, it's not the emotionally prudent thing to do either - as I'd like to "own" my car. I get how it would appeal to those who don't think or act on a long-term basis, though (when it comes to car "ownership").
Some of us do think on a long-term basis and after financing several BMW's have determined that they are very costly to own out-of-warranty, especially the new ones with direct injection technology. Why would I want to continually finance and get a new car every 4-years in order to stay in warranty when instead I can save money with a 3-year lease?

Your logic is correct on the front end, but there must be financial wisdom on the back end as well. There are significant upkeep costs associated with owning a BMW after the warranty expires. Personally, I do not like gambling with my money after 4 years/50K miles with vehicles from this particular manufacturer.
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  #34  
Old 02-04-2012, 10:50 PM
vkperigord vkperigord is offline
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If you watch Suze Orman....you'll know leasing is a terrible financial decision.

It's a personal decision though. I bought my 535 and I'm glad I did. I don't have to worry about miles. I just drive where I want and take long road trips when I want. As long as I have the BMW warranty and maintenance coverage, I'm A-OK. Also, if another 2008/2009 happens in the economy I can just keep my car without having any car payments once my finance period is over.

If you buy, you should make sure you have the full BMW warranty and possibly the extended warranty.
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  #35  
Old 02-04-2012, 11:21 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by vkperigord View Post
If you watch Suze Orman....you'll know leasing is a terrible financial decision.

It's a personal decision though. I bought my 535 and I'm glad I did. I don't have to worry about miles. I just drive where I want and take long road trips when I want. As long as I have the BMW warranty and maintenance coverage, I'm A-OK. Also, if another 2008/2009 happens in the economy I can just keep my car without having any car payments once my finance period is over.

If you buy, you should make sure you have the full BMW warranty and possibly the extended warranty.
Suze Orman focuses on the lowest common denominator. I have four personal cars, one of my four is leased. I am a business owner, and I can deduct the lease payments and some other operating expenses to the extent that the car is used for business purposes. Suze Orman's advice wouldn't work well for me as I can't deduct anything had I bought the car outright. Orman and her ilk are one size fits all merchants, she's not in the business of catering to affluent business owners or the more sophisticated professional. In reality, there is only one "one size fits all" answer to this question and that is that there IS NO "one size fits all" answer to which is the smartest approach in terms of a lease vs buy decision. The bottom line is that both can be viable options and terrible options - it is a fact and circumstance driven equation, and a smart customer can make either alternative work. For what it's worth, Orman would be simply aghast that you'd blown your cash on a BMW, even that relatively inexpensive one. Anything above the basic Honda and its ilk, and to the Ormans of this world you've made, to use your own platitude, a terrible financial decision.
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  #36  
Old 02-04-2012, 11:34 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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I wonder if leasing without write-off is ever the cheaper option independent of the length of the lease. Maybe if you don't look after your car. I only buy cash and swap every three or four years. If you negotiate an ED well and trade the car in a state that it can be CPOd buying has been cheaper for me. My E60 535i for example costed me about $600 a month in depreciation over three years and ~12k miles a year. I don't think I could have gotten a lease at that cost. Maybe there are cases when leasing is cheaper, I still like the feeling of driving my car over someone else 's.
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  #37  
Old 02-05-2012, 05:37 AM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detrick View Post
Some of us do think on a long-term basis and after financing several BMW's have determined that they are very costly to own out-of-warranty, especially the new ones with direct injection technology. Why would I want to continually finance and get a new car every 4-years in order to stay in warranty when instead I can save money with a 3-year lease?

Your logic is correct on the front end, but there must be financial wisdom on the back end as well. There are significant upkeep costs associated with owning a BMW after the warranty expires. Personally, I do not like gambling with my money after 4 years/50K miles with vehicles from this particular manufacturer.
I have owned 4 BMWs, and driven them all beyond the warranty period. I have not incurred massive out of warranty costs that would be room for concern. That said, I will buy an extended warranty for my latest acquisition for peace of mind (because it is the only BMW I bought used - with 6K miles on the clock). The extended warranty being offered is bumper-to-bumper for an '10 M5 and will cost me less than $600 per year over a 7 year warranty period. Assuming the M5 is one of the most expensive BMWs to fix when it goes wrong, and that the warranty company expects to make money over the term, that sugggests that actual out of warranty repairs are likely to be close-to-significant - a lot less than $600. All other BMWs that I have owned (from new) never had any big ticket out-of-warranty repairs associated with them. Reliability has been excellent. And this for 2 Ms and one 3. Of course we can all point to a couple of individuals who have had an awful lot of bad luck out of warranty, but I'd contend they're the exception, not the norm.

Of course, there will be maintenance costs that need to be brought into the fold. But these pale in comparison to thousands of dollars spent annually on perpetual leasing!

Anyway, not arguing with the fact that leasing may make sense for those that simply have to have the latest/greatest. That's fine, though not a model that works for me personally. I view it as a total waste of money, but that's because I generally intend to keep a car well beyond 3 years. (I've broken that rule once - selling a new car after 4 months because I got bored of it - and did regret bying that one, admittedly!).
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  #38  
Old 02-05-2012, 06:39 AM
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For those who appreciate facts over emotion here are summary numbers on the cost of owning (paying cash) on a per month and a per mile basis for 4 of my recent BMWs.

Obvious lessons:

Buy used (still under factory warranty) omits bad first year depreciation and achieves best cost per mile.

Drive a long time (the 02 330i, still going) is lowest cost per month and per mile.

Anyone care to share comparable lease cost numbers?

(I'm not anti-leasing ..... just pro cash paying!)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Cost of Ownership.pdf (94.2 KB, 119 views)
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  #39  
Old 02-05-2012, 07:10 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Whether I lease or buy depends on what I want do with the car, how long I want to keep the car, and the overall cost of ownership. I run the numbers numerous ways before deciding which way to go. Since I wanted to mod my F10, buying was the only option for this car.
This is me sans the mod thing. I am not into modding my cars myself, but I do an independent analysis of each purchase before I decide to buy or lease. The current stable are both financed because the independent analysis showed that made the most sense at the time. Next time might be different. The vast majority of my BMW's were leases though.....
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  #40  
Old 02-05-2012, 07:22 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
For those who appreciate facts over emotion here are summary numbers on the cost of owning (paying cash) on a per month and a per mile basis for 4 of my recent BMWs.

Obvious lessons:

Buy used (still under factory warranty) omits bad first year depreciation and achieves best cost per mile.

Drive a long time (the 02 330i, still going) is lowest cost per month and per mile.

Anyone care to share comparable lease cost numbers?

(I'm not anti-leasing ..... just pro cash paying!)
There won't be any comparable lease numbers as no one leases a used car and keeps it on lease for 11 years. There won't be any data that would make for an apples to apples comparison to your specific case.

What you do works for you, what others do works for them. Some folks want a new car, some folks are OK with one that someone else has driven before, some have more advantageous tax circumstances, some can take advantage of close to free money from BMWFS, some see that subvented residuals that artificially reduce lease payments can indeed make leasing a BMW a very viable way to drive a BMW.

You're OK buying used and keeping them, if you're frugal and on a budget what you do is probably right for you. Others may have zero interest in driving around in an 11 year old 330. Either way, your situation isn't one that will compare to a lease. If you bought a car and flipped it every three years or so you'd likely find leasing to be the cheapest option. If you plan to hold a car for a long time, you're probably not going to want to lease it.

Still, the underlying point remains - sometimes it makes sense to buy, sometimes it makes sense to lease, and there isn't any one size fits all approach that can be applied. I wrote a check for three of my cars, I leased one, and in all four cases I made the right decision for me and my own specific circumstances. That is the only relevant point that one ought to consider.
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Last edited by swajames; 02-05-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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  #41  
Old 02-05-2012, 07:24 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhs156 View Post
I can't believe how many of you lease - what a phenominal waste of money. I suppose if you only intend on keeping the car for a short while you might as well rent, but over the long haul that becomes an incredibly expensive proposition - from a net cash outflow perspective (as a rule). Financials aside, I like knowing that the car I drive is actually "my" car, not one I'm borrowing. Not hammering leasing - but it just wouldn't make financial or emotional sense to me; I don't intend to change out cars every couple of years...
I think you are missing a crucial element here. HOW LONG DO YOU PLAN TO KEEP THE CAR? I have done both and, by my own math, have figured out that one must keep a financed car for at least 7-8 years to make financing worth it over leasing. If you keep your car and drive it in the ground, repairs or no repairs, it will be much cheaper than leasing a new car every 3 years and incurring constant car payments along with lease startup costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg1871 View Post
If you are like me and want a new car within the warranty at all times then leasing makes sense. If you like keeping your car until the wheels fall off then buying is the best choice.
Ditto. If you are the kind of person, as many people are, that trades the car the day you have made the last payment then you are effectively leasing anyway. Many people feel all warm and fuzzy about having a warranty and, if that is you, then leasing is the way to go. I have owned many BMW's out of warranty and the out of warranty fear is vastly overblown. Sure you will pay for some repairs and upkeep, but you are also driving a paid off car or almost paid off car. Rarely do you see someone say they have spent 12k a year maintaining a BMW. There are many people out there who spend 12k a year in lease payments on a single car though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
For those who appreciate facts over emotion here are summary numbers on the cost of owning (paying cash) on a per month and a per mile basis for 4 of my recent BMWs.

Obvious lessons:

Buy used (still under factory warranty) omits bad first year depreciation and achieves best cost per mile.

Drive a long time (the 02 330i, still going) is lowest cost per month and per mile.

Anyone care to share comparable lease cost numbers?

(I'm not anti-leasing ..... just pro cash paying!)
You make complete sense and remind me of my uncle and his 02 330cic (which he paid cash for BTW). Cash buying is by and large the best way to buy a car assuming that your money is not making more than the interest on a loan. When I can finance for 1.9% for 60 months I will finance any day of the week. When interest rates start going up it is likely I will lease or pay cash though.
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  #42  
Old 02-05-2012, 07:36 AM
ksoze ksoze is offline
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Life is short - if you can afford the payments of a lease and understand the paper downsides, go for it. If one was being truly fiscally logical, buy a Honda Civic for cash and drive it into the next century. No one here on this board buys into that, else why would one spend exponentially more for what is just a hunk of metal running on four wheels (and RFT's)
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  #43  
Old 02-05-2012, 09:20 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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One of the problems US citizens seem to have is not owning what they are using.
Consumption based on debt and a mentallity as after me the apocalypse.
It is quite clear that such a mentality is around with BMW drivers as well.
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  #44  
Old 02-05-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
One of the problems US citizens seem to have is not owning what they are using.
Consumption based on debt and a mentallity as after me the apocalypse.
It is quite clear that such a mentality is around with BMW drivers as well.
Based on your country of residence you have an interesting perspective worth noting!

I wonder how the fiscally responsible Germans feel about using leasing and debt financing to sell much higher volumes of expensive BMW's, Mercedes, etc to the Americans who are enabled by having easy monthly payment terms readily available?
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  #45  
Old 02-05-2012, 10:38 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
One of the problems US citizens seem to have is not owning what they are using.
Consumption based on debt and a mentallity as after me the apocalypse.
It is quite clear that such a mentality is around with BMW drivers as well.
It's a weakness in the US that the financial industry exploits.

Outside of business leases that can be expensed, there are situations where a lease is preferable, but they are few and far between.
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  #46  
Old 02-05-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
One of the problems US citizens seem to have is not owning what they are using.
Consumption based on debt and a mentallity as after me the apocalypse.
It is quite clear that such a mentality is around with BMW drivers as well.
Actually, this is what makes the U.S. economy a very dynamic one. Pick out a country where they keep cars for 14 years and let's see how well they are doing.

My dad who lives in W. Africa drives a 1989 MB 280s which he bought new. When I told him I used to sell 14 cars a month in the U.S. he thought I was lying and he was appalled at the thought of people trading in 2 year old cars, but I was glad that they did and so are many sales people.
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  #47  
Old 02-05-2012, 08:05 PM
Stevej2001 Stevej2001 is offline
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There can't be an answer since we're all different. I leased my '08 535i and was glad I did. I never had significant problems but the problems I did have were frequent. Given the rep the N54 had, I was glad to be off the hook in 3 year.

I replaced it with a F10 535i which I bought. I couldn't pass up the 0.9% 36 month financing available at the time. The payments are enormous but the money is almost free.

I ordered the car and got just what I wanted so I figure I'm in for the long term. Wish me luck. It'll be paid off in October, 2014.
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  #48  
Old 02-06-2012, 10:51 AM
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SteVTEC SteVTEC is online now
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In general, leases don't make sense at all.

But this is BMW we're talking about, who heavily subsidizes their leasing programs in the US to keep sales up, and so that they'll have a nice supply of CPO vehicles that they can turn around 3 years later and make money on again. I thought I read once that BMW actually makes more money selling the CPO cars than they do on the new leases. Either way, BMW's strong lease support makes a big difference.

I once ran the numbers for a buy vs lease on an E60 when I was considering one, and the break even point wasn't until 10 years where you'd really be saving money by buying, and at that point you'd be in a 10 year old BMW whereas you could have kept re-leasing and be driving a brand new one every 3 years the other way. The analysis included everything. Lease start-up costs for each lease, an assumption on inflation and in general higher costs on each re-lease, the fact that you would need a very large cash down payment up front on the buy, and that you could put that money into investments instead if leasing. Out of warranty repair/maintenance costs for the purchased car for which I used the "$200/mo rule of thumb" that wouldn't be an issue on the leased car were included, along with some other stuff.

I dunno. I'd rather be driving a new BMW every 3 years, not having to pay for any maintenance or issues that come up, and not worrying about direct injection injector and port clogging, turbos blowing up, fuel pumps and wastegates letting go, among many other things, while also not having to put down a huge $25k+ down payment on said car if I could lease, and put that money into investments instead, the kids 529 plans (nearly fully funded and they're only 2 and 4), extra payments on the mortgage (2+ years ahead), vacations, etc.

In the end, all BMWs are a complete waste of money. Nobody needs one. It's a luxury you can do without. If you really wanted to save money you could go buy a nice 2012 Camry like my parents did and then drive it for 10-15 years. It's a nice simple car by today's standards, so there isn't much that's going to go wrong with it. They paid cash for it, which still only would have been a down payment on an F10. So whether you lease, loan, or cash buy a BMW, you're still wasting a ton of money either way. It doesn't matter. Save money = go buy a nice reliable NEW or 2-3 year old Japanese car, and then run it into the ground.
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  #49  
Old 02-06-2012, 02:24 PM
moe4ever moe4ever is offline
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As most people have echoed on here, its all relative to the individual. I purchased mine and I plan on keeping it for at least 8 to 10 years, barring any major accident or repairs. I am also looking forward to when its paid off and that note can be diverted towards something else or even to my savings.
I really think it depends on the financial standing of each individual, I have noticed business owners and people with considerable wealth prefer to lease and change cars every two to three years. If I was a millionaire or retired, I will probably belong to that group :-D.
Everyone else usually fall into the purchase group, especially foreigners (thats me) and frugal individuals. This is just my humble opinion.
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Retired - 2002 Topaz Blue 530I, Sports Package
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:00 PM
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MileHiGolfer MileHiGolfer is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 271
Mein Auto: 11 535xi M
Funny how some people are so clueless that they think it never makes sense to lease. As the sane people have already said, it all depends on the person and the situation. Many times it does make sense. Especially so for someone like me, who is shallow enough that I think I need to be driving around in the newest car all the time and never have one more than 3 years tops. On the other hand we bought my wife's X3 because she'll probably keep it for a long time.
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