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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #101  
Old 05-30-2012, 05:35 AM
worldsmart02 worldsmart02 is offline
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To me leasing makes sense for someone who doesn't drive that many miles. With buying you have depreciation and doesn't make sense if one doesn't keep car for couple of years after getting paid off.

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  #102  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:44 AM
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Kamdog Kamdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The big thing you are missing is that you would likely only pay 40,000 - and most likely less - to lease a couple of 55k cars for that same period without the loss of capital. No maintenance costs either. Comparisons are only valid with actual cases and not with hypotheticals but where you claim to get 20% back, a lessee never had to expend it in the first instance.
I agree that you really can't use hypotheticals, but, I disagree that you can get away with 40K for 6 years worth of leasing payments. That adds out to about $555 a month, including all payments. I don't think you can reliably get a 60K car for much under $800, if that low, and 800*72= $57600.

Too, the world doesn't end at 6 years and one month, because, when leasing, that one more month means a new lease.

So, IMO, if you are comfortable driving a car that is 6-9 years old, you are better off buying. But you take more of the risk personally, and you drive older cars. The 'extra cost' of maintaining a BMW is overblown, IMO. It isn't going to run you $800 a month, every month.

To me, the choices are these: Buy if you are going to own for several years (6+), lease if you like new cars and less risk.
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  #103  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:28 AM
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Greg@Pacific BMW Greg@Pacific BMW is offline
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Here's my 2 cents... If you like a new car every 3 years or so and have a budget for a car payment then lease.. if you buy (finance) car you have to drive it for 7-9 years or so to see real savings. FYI I do about 85% leases.... the 15% left is 10% finance and 5% cash.. the people who finance always try and trade their car in the last year of loan or so.. rarely do I get a car that is PAID OFF.. and most people never get the trade vale they want.
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  #104  
Old 05-30-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg@Pacific BMW View Post
Here's my 2 cents... If you like a new car every 3 years or so and have a budget for a car payment then lease.. if you buy (finance) car you have to drive it for 7-9 years or so to see real savings. FYI I do about 85% leases.... the 15% left is 10% finance and 5% cash.. the people who finance always try and trade their car in the last year of loan or so.. rarely do I get a car that is PAID OFF.. and most people never get the trade vale they want.
Well, not always. I have three cars, all financed, and all fully paid off.

But people tell me that I am not the usual person when it comes to money. I prefer to spend for value. Heck, I even thought the 535i gave me a lot of value for the money, which sounds pretty rediculous when you are talking about a 50K plus car, but, there it is.
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  #105  
Old 05-30-2012, 01:01 PM
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Are the base money factors found on RidewithG.com applicable for all the BMW dealers in the USA which is now 0.0019.

I was at one who quoted me a 0.0023MF on a typical 36 month lease for a 5-series without any security deposits.
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  #106  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:03 PM
CarbonBlack CarbonBlack is offline
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IMO you pay too much when you lease, plus any additional work done to the car goes to waste.

I don't buy a car until I have enough to pay for it outright. I only buy cars that have high resell value so that I minimize my losses when it's time to sell after 4-5 years..
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  #107  
Old 05-30-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonBlack View Post
IMO you pay too much when you lease, plus any additional work done to the car goes to waste.

I only buy cars that have high resell value so that I minimize my losses when it's time to sell after 4-5 years..
Which BMW models and features meet this qualification?
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  #108  
Old 11-25-2012, 01:25 PM
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DJHomie DJHomie is offline
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I would love to know this also..
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  #109  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:38 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Blkthght View Post
Or vice versa? I understand that this is probably an awkward question, but I'm hoping that current owners who may have something to say about this will share their thoughts. I'm at that stage where I'm about to order the 550i msport (euro delivery) and I am agonizing over whether to buy or lease. I have done all the research and run all of the numbers and I am leaning toward leasing. I have found that it really does come down to how long one intends to keep the vehicle, and to how much of a premium one places on the option to buy at the end of the lease term.

I apologize in advance if this topic isn't for this forum, but i figured since I was posing a general question and not asking about any particular aspect of the ordering process, that this is the appropriate forum. Thanks in advance.
You don't have enough money to buy this car.. buy
something cheaper...
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  #110  
Old 11-26-2012, 09:39 PM
adgrant adgrant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldsmart02 View Post
To me leasing makes sense for someone who doesn't drive that many miles. With buying you have depreciation and doesn't make sense if one doesn't keep car for couple of years after getting paid off.

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Not to me. I bought my current car because I don't drive many miles. If I lived outside Manhattan and drove every day, I would lease.
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  #111  
Old 11-28-2012, 06:14 AM
kssod kssod is offline
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I considered leasing but after finally figuring out what the interest is charged on , I stayed with purchase. Interest or money factor is applied to cap cost minus residual, plus the cap cost. So the MF over the term of lease is applied to almost 100k for a well optioned 535x. That's a rip off.
Penfed.org interest 1.49% over 5 years, regular purchase,roll equity of old car into trade etc, the money makes sense. You never see highly educated individuals asking is this purchase a good deal, vs the thousands of posts on leases deals asking for advise.
I dont like all the built in fees, acquisition, drop off, etc.... It just means more profit for the dealer and manufacturer.

Buy what you can afford.
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  #112  
Old 11-28-2012, 08:07 AM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
I considered leasing but after finally figuring out what the interest is charged on , I stayed with purchase. Interest or money factor is applied to cap cost minus residual, plus the cap cost. So the MF over the term of lease is applied to almost 100k for a well optioned 535x. That's a rip off.
Penfed.org interest 1.49% over 5 years, regular purchase,roll equity of old car into trade etc, the money makes sense. You never see highly educated individuals asking is this purchase a good deal, vs the thousands of posts on leases deals asking for advise.
I dont like all the built in fees, acquisition, drop off, etc.... It just means more profit for the dealer and manufacturer.

Buy what you can afford.
So are you saying smart people do not lease vehicles?
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  #113  
Old 11-28-2012, 08:20 AM
Alan L. Alan L. is offline
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There is no Wrong or Right way to pay for your car. It all comes down to personal preference....

There is already enough points in this thread that explains how either Lease or Finance works out better or worse.

It simply comes down to how long do you plan to keep the car to determine which method works better for you. Either way we are losing money regardless but we all knew that already right?
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  #114  
Old 11-28-2012, 08:49 AM
kssod kssod is offline
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Originally Posted by Emilner View Post
So are you saying smart people do not lease vehicles?
Not at ll, for me personally, leasing seems like too many extra fees and charges.
For many, there are tax advantages to lease, but not myself.
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  #115  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:35 AM
Silververtu Silververtu is offline
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I had leased, finance and paid cash for cars in the past 7 years and here is my little opinion on each of them:

Cash: I kept the longest, over 7 years, and I spent lots of time and $$ doing mods and taking care of it. No financial stress as I don't need to worry about monthly payments and resale value.

Finance: I had the car for about 1.5 years, spent lots of time taking care of and drove cautionly the whole time as I always tried to keep it in prestige for high resale value so it could pay itself off when I trade/sell, which I did and with some cash in my pocket but could not enjoy the car that much.

Lease: Maybe I will get flamed on this but I enjoyed the vehicle the most. Nothing to worry about and drive like I stole it. The down side is that paying those extra fees.
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  #116  
Old 11-28-2012, 12:55 PM
wildvlad wildvlad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
I considered leasing but after finally figuring out what the interest is charged on , I stayed with purchase. Interest or money factor is applied to cap cost minus residual, plus the cap cost. So the MF over the term of lease is applied to almost 100k for a well optioned 535x. That's a rip off.
FYI: you are forgetting that "Money Factor" already accounts for "double residual" (for simplicity of calculation). E.g. it's half of what MF would be if it applies to average of residual and cap cost.

Basically instead of doing MF0 * (capcost + residual)/2
the "/2" portion had been combined into Money Factor.

p.s. all MF to APR convertors already account for that, so if you try to convert MF into APR online you can have better picture of APR charged.
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  #117  
Old 11-28-2012, 01:24 PM
kssod kssod is offline
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Yes, I understand that. Leasing is supposed to be a way to pay for the amount of the vehicle you use over the term. Ie cap cost - residual.
MF x 2400 = apr
If one takes the leased amount and enters that into an amortization calculator at the mf/apr, the payments never match the lease calculator payment.
So the leasing companies are charging additional interest for the use of the vehicle above the supposed dollar amount financed at the mf.
This is calculated by applying the mf/apr to the leased amount plus cap cost over the term.
My point is this is never really explained by a leasing company, leases never disclose a true interest rate for the amount one borrows, and if one tries to compare it to a conventional loan the interest for the leased value is almost double the mf, or is equivalent to interest on 140% of the cap cost.
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  #118  
Old 11-28-2012, 01:36 PM
wildvlad wildvlad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
Yes, I understand that. Leasing is supposed to be a way to pay for the amount of the vehicle you use over the term. Ie cap cost - residual.
MF x 2400 = apr
If one takes the leased amount and enters that into an amortization calculator at the mf/apr, the payments never match the lease calculator payment.
So the leasing companies are charging additional interest for the use of the vehicle above the supposed dollar amount financed at the mf.
This is calculated by applying the mf/apr to the leased amount plus cap cost over the term.
My point is this is never really explained by a leasing company, leases never disclose a true interest rate for the amount one borrows, and if one tries to compare it to a conventional loan the interest for the leased value is almost double the mf, or is equivalent to interest on 140% of the cap cost.
So, you want to pay nothing for money borrowed to cover residual?
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  #119  
Old 11-28-2012, 02:05 PM
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cordoor cordoor is offline
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Originally Posted by jsclarke View Post
But except for cash buyers- I "own" my car as well. At any time I can pay $x and it's mine (where x is summation of remaining lease payments + residual). It's all a frame of mind.

You know, as in the song, life itself "is for rent"...??

main thing of course is, lease or buy, we all have good taste (in cars) and have great cars. John
Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
Yes, I understand that. Leasing is supposed to be a way to pay for the amount of the vehicle you use over the term. Ie cap cost - residual.
MF x 2400 = apr
If one takes the leased amount and enters that into an amortization calculator at the mf/apr, the payments never match the lease calculator payment.
So the leasing companies are charging additional interest for the use of the vehicle above the supposed dollar amount financed at the mf.
This is calculated by applying the mf/apr to the leased amount plus cap cost over the term.
My point is this is never really explained by a leasing company, leases never disclose a true interest rate for the amount one borrows, and if one tries to compare it to a conventional loan the interest for the leased value is almost double the mf, or is equivalent to interest on 140% of the cap cost.
Interest isn't the only deciding factor on which is more expensive. A lot depends on what you get for a financed/cashed vehicle when you sell it. If you pay cash for a vehicle and then get trade-in for it after 3 years, you may actually be spending more over three years to own that vehicle than if you had gotten a great lease on it.

I suppose the vehicle could be sold to a private buyer. But that is another factor. The first vehicle I owned, I paid all cash for a used. The next two vehicles I owned, I financed new vehicles, paid them off, and then carried them for another several years (one of them was an Accord I held for 13 years). The two vehicles I own now, they were used financed vehicles. This week, I finalized the first lease I have ever done (F10).

Which has been the best "deal" for me? I haven't done the math. And I'm not sure I care all that much. I can say that the Accord I held for 13 years was a fantastic deal. But not enjoyable.

After setting up this lease, I may never buy again. It was easy. I got a great lease deal. I'm getting what I want. I'm stoked I will hold the vehicle only 3 years and then will move into something new again, as opposed to holding for 13 years like I did with the Accord (I tend to hold onto things for a long, long time, even if I don't enjoy them, and this lease is sort of a way to force myself out of that).

Every time I have had to sell a vehicle (which is every time I've owned one so far), I have hated it and so I've listed them and sold them to private sellers at rock bottom prices because I want them out of my driveway in two days.

Should I spend more time and hassle selling the vehicles to get more money for them? For me, the answer is no. I run a business and there is enough stress and time consumption there that I don't want to be running home several times over the course of a month just so show someone the vehicle.

So, I've decided to lease for now on. Will I save more money? I don't know and it isn't a priority as long as I get what I feel is a really good lease deal.

I don't know if I'm smart or not. But this is what I've decided to do for me.

-Corey
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  #120  
Old 11-28-2012, 03:27 PM
Blkthght Blkthght is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
You don't have enough money to buy this car.. buy
something cheaper...
Really? Interesting. Never mind the fact that you know nothing of my finances, nor nothing about the value I place on mitigating risk (liability, depreciation), please explain why you feel someone should "buy" their car.
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  #121  
Old 11-28-2012, 04:08 PM
deenx deenx is offline
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OK.... so leasing makes sense for someone who doesn't put a lot of miles on a car? Really?? Have you calculated the cost/mile and considered the potential maintenance liabilities for running a car 10 years? There is no end to the potential liability. All it takes is one major repair and you'll find out how costly it is. And what do you have when you are ready to sell the car? A BMW with over 100K miles... no warranty... 10 years old.... maybe an accident...what's it worth? How hard is it to sell? You decide to sell it used.. and after a week... the buyer wants their money back because the transmission failed. Only good for people who don't drive a lot of miles? The upfront extra mileage charge for a BMW... and one of the big reasons I continue to lease from BMW.. is a whopping .15/mile. Half way through the lease you can buy them for .16/mile. I lease because I limit my potential liabilities and no matter what happens to the vehicle, at the end of the lease, BMW HAS to take it back. I always say I've pre-sold the car to BMW.
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  #122  
Old 11-29-2012, 12:55 PM
Blkthght Blkthght is offline
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Originally Posted by deenx View Post
I lease because I limit my potential liabilities and no matter what happens to the vehicle, at the end of the lease, BMW HAS to take it back. I always say I've pre-sold the car to BMW.
This. Exactly. Perhaps if PeterC4 was as interested in learning about risk management as he is in speculating about strangers' finances, he may surprise himself to discover that he is better off buying a clue than he is buying a car.
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  #123  
Old 11-29-2012, 01:01 PM
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Greg@Pacific BMW Greg@Pacific BMW is offline
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wow interesting thread................!! all I can say is unless someone is going to pay for my car personally I could care less about their opinion on how I would or can pay for it.
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Current rides: 2013 X5 msport and 2013 535i
15% over wholesale/invoice for all accessories! and free shipping for Bimmerfest members!!
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  #124  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:16 PM
marsb007 marsb007 is offline
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I purchased my last vehicle because I anticipated to drive more than 15k miles per year, so I bought into the idea that it's the smarter thing to do...

Unfortunately, now that I want to sell my vehicle which is 2.5 years old, every dealer is trying to screw me on my high-mileage vehicle as a trade-in.

With a lease, you pay a penalty for overage miles ($.15-$.20), but for the 4000-5000 miles extra (total) that I drive over 36 months, I'd rather pay that instead of having to deal with the hassle of unloading a high-mileage car (as someone else said, it's no longer my problem).

Overall, if you calculate the price per mile overage on a lease with what you're losing from being penalized on the trade-in, you come ahead on the lease...

Leasing is better for me from that perspective. I also get the new car itch every 2.5-3 years, so buying would actually cost me more. I think of the added fees of leasing as the price for convenience.
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  #125  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:27 PM
RambleJ RambleJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsb007 View Post
I purchased my last vehicle because I anticipated to drive more than 15k miles per year, so I bought into the idea that it's the smarter thing to do...

Unfortunately, now that I want to sell my vehicle which is 2.5 years old, every dealer is trying to screw me on my high-mileage vehicle as a trade-in.

With a lease, you pay a penalty for overage miles ($.15-$.20), but for the 4000-5000 miles extra (total) that I drive over 36 months, I'd rather pay that instead of having to deal with the hassle of unloading a high-mileage car (as someone else said, it's no longer my problem).

Overall, if you calculate the price per mile overage on a lease with what you're losing from being penalized on the trade-in, you come ahead on the lease...

Leasing is better for me from that perspective. I also get the new car itch every 2.5-3 years, so buying would actually cost me more. I think of the added fees of leasing as the price for convenience.
This happened to me. I decided to purchase a used 2008 E60 535i. I thought i was going to have that car forever. 2 years down the road the new F10 came out and i wanted out of the car, but I was far too upsidedown to make sense to trade it in for an F10. Lucky for me the e60 started falling apart and i was able to get BMW to buy back my E60 and then decided to lease an F10, knowing damn well when the new M3 comes out I will be ready to drop this and get into the new turbo M3
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