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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #101  
Old 07-17-2012, 02:06 AM
luminmiller luminmiller is offline
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Quote:
Spec is 5.2 water-columns for vacuum on the Ccv I6
I am sorry I don't know what this means. I was trying to ask if anyone knows what vacuum a vibrant e-vac kit would pull if placed correctly in the exhaust post cats and o2 sensors?



Quote:
How do plan on running a hose from the k&n filter to a check-valve/ exhaust bung?
I don't. Since I live in the Netherlands I can vent directly to atmosphere with a K&N only, but the K&N can be removed and the fumes can be burnt in the exhaust ( a check valve is recommended).

Quote:
Won't you run the chance of clogging up the cats by doing this?
No because the vibrant e-vac bung is welded in after cats and O2s.
Additionally I stated in my post I will not be running cats

Many FI bmws run a vibrant kit using the venturi effect to create vacuum and don't utilize a vacuum pump. I am only using a pump to increase the vacuum to help seal the rings and raise power.

Last edited by luminmiller; 07-17-2012 at 02:09 AM.
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  #102  
Old 07-17-2012, 11:26 AM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luminmiller View Post
I am sorry I don't know what this means. I was trying to ask if anyone knows what vacuum a vibrant e-vac kit would pull if placed correctly in the exhaust post cats and o2 sensors?




I don't. Since I live in the Netherlands I can vent directly to atmosphere with a K&N only, but the K&N can be removed and the fumes can be burnt in the exhaust ( a check valve is recommended).


No because the vibrant e-vac bung is welded in after cats and O2s.
Additionally I stated in my post I will not be running cats

Many FI bmws run a vibrant kit using the venturi effect to create vacuum and don't utilize a vacuum pump. I am only using a pump to increase the vacuum to help seal the rings and raise power.
Thanks!
Great posts and information...!

One of the ways the CCV is tested is by using a "manometer" which measures the water-columns from both ends of the system (intake and exhaust).
Reference this thread:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=534005

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
EDIT JimLev & I were composing in parallel it seems. His post is good. If you have a commercial gauge it would me more convenient.

EDIT2: My "MeasureWC.jpg" red arrows are wrong %^&*. As drawn, they indicate CCV pressure not vacuum. Sorry for the mistake.

There is no need for or benefit from a commercial slack tube manometer to measure CCV vacuum. (BTW, "slack tube" means that one end of the manometer is open to atmosphere - a fancy name for a simple idea)
A home brew slack tube manometer will give you a reading more than accuate enough at a fraction of the cost. All you need is a length of clear tube, a bit of masking tape, some water and a ruler. A tube size that worked for the diameter of the dipstick gude is labelled 0.375 ID, 0.5" OD (3/8 x 1/2)

BMW specs for the CCV are 10 to 15 millibar crankcase vacuum at idle, which converts to 4 to 6 inches of water column.

1 Wrap masking tape into a tapered plug at one end of the tube

2 Pour some water into the "U" of clear plastic tube so that you have say 8" on each leg.

3 Remove the dip stick and slowly insert the tape plug end of the tube into the dipstick guide tube while watching the water level change in the "U". Do this slowly since if the CCV is malfunctioning and pulling too much vacuum, it could suck all the water out of the tube into the sump. Not the end of the world, but would make an immediate oil change a wise idea.

4 With a ruler, measure the vertical difference in water levels in the "U." In my example, the red arrows on the MeasureWC.jpg. This is your vacuum in inches of water column.

Note 1
In step 2 you want to be sure to have enough water in the "U." Say you start with 2" each side and your CCV is pulling 6" of vacuum. All the water will be pulled into one side of the "U" for a total of 4" w.c. which is not enough to resist the 6" w.c vacuum from the crankcase. The slug of water could be pulled into the sump, unless you quickly yank the tube off the dipstick guide tube.

Note 2
The high water will be on the engine side of the "U" for vacuum. If the high side is on the open end, the crankcase has pressure indicating a failed CCV.

Note 3
A few extra feet of length as in my example is a good idea. If you have a high vacuum & the water starts rushing toward the engine, you will have a second or two to pull the tube off the dispstick guide tube before the water is sucked into the sump.

Note 4
This measurement is not a definitive test of the CCV.
If the CCV has sludge &/or water, it could misleadingly pass or fail depending on whether the water is frozen or not and whether the orifice valve is blocked.
Prolonged driving in ambient temperature that enables the CCV & hoses to get good and hot might clear a sludged up CCV. But, you risk engine damage before the sludge cleared.
Conversely, a CCV with sludge that passes when warm/hot, could freeze up in cold conditions & cause problems.

Regards
RDL
So, you do not want any more than 13 millibars, which equals approximately 5.2 water-colums...
http://www.convertunits.com/from/mil...f+water+column



Is there a link to the this "Vibrant" kit?

Or, do you have a link or picture of what you plan to use for a vacuum pump...?

If I can find something that will provide the correct vacuum, and still cap the intake completely, I may go this route...
Reference my thread:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?p=6932381

Thank you!

Jason
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Last edited by Jason5driver; 07-17-2012 at 12:09 PM.
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  #103  
Old 07-18-2012, 01:03 AM
luminmiller luminmiller is offline
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Hi Jason thanks for the good info!

Quote:
So, you do not want any more than 13 millibars, which equals approximately 5.2 water-colums...
If you want only to vent crank case with vacuum then just use Vibrant kit in exhaust and no vac pump. This setup will be more than sufficient.
I am using a M50 IM so capping manifold isn't an issue, but a wide range of vacuum plugs can be purchased from most auto parts store. (Sorry I am not familiar with the m54 manifold and its vac lines)

Quote:
Is there a link to the this "Vibrant" kit?
http://www.vibrantperformance.com/
The Kit is also sold by many other retailers....Google for best price

Quote:
do you have a link or picture of what you plan to use for a vacuum pump...?



Sumit racing carries vacuum pumps (a little expensive and can't vouch for quality).
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...-Pumps-Street/

I will be using a German 12v pump with with variable vacuum settings. 8"HG / 14"HG of vacuum is my goal (Small, Quit and long life is the key as it will be running continuously..rubber mounting feet help). I will one day replace it with a belt driven pump for longevity.

I found a good article last night from Nutter Racing that pretty much covers what I was taught about increasing engine vac to help seal rings:
http://nutterracingengines.com/racin...uum_facts.html

Last edited by luminmiller; 07-18-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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  #104  
Old 07-20-2012, 11:22 PM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luminmiller View Post
Hi Jason thanks for the good info!


If you want only to vent crank case with vacuum then just use Vibrant kit in exhaust and no vac pump. This setup will be more than sufficient.

I am using a M50 IM so capping manifold isn't an issue, but a wide range of vacuum plugs can be purchased from most auto parts store.
(Sorry I am not familiar with the m54 manifold and its vac lines)



http://www.vibrantperformance.com/
The Kit is also sold by many other retailers....Google for best price






Sumit racing carries vacuum pumps (a little expensive and can't vouch for quality).
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...-Pumps-Street/

I will be using a German 12v pump with with variable vacuum settings. 8"HG / 14"HG of vacuum is my goal (Small, Quit and long life is the key as it will be running continuously..rubber mounting feet help). I will one day replace it with a belt driven pump for longevity.

I found a good article last night from Nutter Racing that pretty much covers what I was taught about increasing engine vac to help seal rings:
http://nutterracingengines.com/racin...uum_facts.html
Thanks!
That is some excellent information there...!
Awesome...
There is quite a bit of information about this Vibrant kit/ vacuum from exhaust by running crankcase blow-by to exhaust, and/or running a vacuum pump...

I wonder how much vacuum is sufficient for our cars?
8 "HG of crankcase vacuum...?
How much CFM...?

This is a great thread:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1678453

And this one too:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...1577480&page=6

Setup Options:

1. Valve cover to check valve, then to exhaust. Or,
2. Valve cover to catch can, catch can to check valve and exhaust. Or...
3. Valve cover to check valve, then to catch can, then to check valve, then to vacuum pump, then to exhaust.




http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%2...ntilation.html

And food for thought....
Quote:
Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
There's more than Bernoulli Effect in play. without going off into a long boring dissertation, exhaust flow is not a constant; there are positive and negative pressure pulses as the exhaust valves open and close.

In the bad old days of early emissions control, thermoreactors were the buzz; done by pumping fresh air into the exhaust stream.
It was discovered that by placing a reed type checkvalve close in, the negative pulses were strong enough to draw in the required air without a pump.
That's where these checkvalves used here are sourced.
This is likely why the system that didn't create vacuum at the bung started to do so once the checkvalve was in place.
It may also explain why some are seeing better results than others.
Pulse strength at the valve is key.
The volume of hose between the Pitot and valve will act as a damper.
The valve needs to be as close to the source as practical.
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Last edited by Jason5driver; 07-21-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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  #105  
Old 07-22-2012, 02:44 AM
luminmiller luminmiller is offline
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Quote:
I wonder how much vacuum is sufficient for our cars? 8 "HG of crankcase vacuum...? How much CFM...?
Obviously 10 to 15 millibar crankcase vacuum at idle is sufficient. (many run without vacuum)
I think our engines/rings can benefit from a little more vac and most people can run crank case to catch can/ oil separator then to a vibrant kit with a check valve. (If you use a separator or want to drain oil directly back to pan then use another inline check valve.)

Please not the check valve attached to vibrant kit.....
I found this FI M5 post that pretty much covers everything a good ccv setup needs.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...harger-m5.html

If you want a great setup I recommend using a good vacuum pump.
I am building my engine in my heated garage and will have the ability to pressurize my system prior to installation.
I have purposely blown seals and gaskets doing this on previous builds, but have yet to test max pressure on our six cylinders.
I'll update this post with pressure specs when I get it all up and running....or just pm if you have specific questions.

Kind regards
Lumin

Last edited by luminmiller; 07-22-2012 at 02:52 AM.
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  #106  
Old 07-22-2012, 04:00 AM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Thanks Lumin...!
Excellent information...!

Questions:

What if the exhaust creates some positive pressure...?
And/ or what if the check valve clogs...?
Screwed...?
LOL!


Are you planning on using a 1997 Cobra Mustang vacuum pump...?

How do you plan measuring the vacuum?
Are you using a vacuum gauge at the hose from the valve cover to the vibrant kit?


I also saw this:

KRANK VENT SYSTEM

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ght=krank+vent

http://www.et-performance.com/turbo.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Dog 20/20 View Post
I would just vent the crankcase vent tube to atmosphere/catchcan, but there is no vacuum (PCV) created that way and this is bad for crankcase pressures. Previously, the only way around this is to vent to the exhaust system or the intake (OE method).

For me, this product (KVS) is cool because it is said to create a vacuum at the end of the crankcase vent tube, thus evacuating the pressure very nicely, without plumbing to the exhaust or intake (and perhaps better than those methods).

What I would do is:

crankcase tube >> catch can >> exit tube >> KVS >>> atmosphere.

This way, any liquid oil gets pulled into the catch can, and any vapors are pulled from the can to the atmosphere. Thus, none of the junk gets drained back into the engine or sucked into the intake like the OE set-up.
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Last edited by Jason5driver; 07-22-2012 at 04:19 AM.
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  #107  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:44 AM
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johnstern johnstern is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luminmiller View Post
I ran a stealth catch can and recirculated vapor back to my intake tract on a e28 535 in SD California without ever getting noticed by a visual inspector..... Just make it clean looking like the OP!


I have many fellow e39ers here in the Netherlands that have FI M5's and always run ccv out to bungs in either exhaust...post cats and O2"s. With both bungs combined they show vacuum in the range of 7.7 to 10.5 HG. This would be great for our low tension piston rings, but I'm pretty sure a NA single bung six cylinder will offer a much lower VAC from this source (anyone have pressure calculations?). Our pressure control valve maintains a slight vacuum of only (10-15 mbar), so I think an exhaust bung is more than a sufficient replacement for vacuum.

I wanted to use only a catch can with K&N Filter and drain oil back to dipstick (with check valve), but instead I will be going with a pressure pump set for a constant 10HG of vacuum. I will pressure test the engine once reassembled to confirm the seals can handle this much vac, but in the meantime here is a diagram of the basics:



I am building a M50B30 (with m54b30 pistons and rings) for street use in Europe and won't be running catalytic converters as we don't have a very stringent visual inspection as long as the car runs clean, so this may not be a perfect fit for everyone but I am always open to discussion.
I would think that no matter how efficient the cyclone separator is, some oil would get into the vacuum pump and then into the exhaust where it would "coke up" from the heat, eventually obstructing the exhaust. I don't know what effect the oil would have on the vacuum pump, but it couldn't be good as the pump is designed to pump gas, not liquid.

I also do not fully understand how your Netherlands M5 friends can get a reliable vacuum from exhaust bungs. At idle and/ or low rpms there would be very little vacuum created and that is when the stock setup has the most vacuum. And what about burnt oil deposits eventually causing exhaust obstruction in those cars.

I'm not saying your or your friend's setups won't work but I'm wondering what the long term effects of the exhaust would be. In my mind there is really no way of clearing burnt oil deposits from the exhaust besides cutting, cleaning and welding.
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  #108  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:36 PM
poolman poolman is offline
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Eparayno, I Got up this morning and set to work on my catch can set up to make it more the way your system is made , . Though my system has worked well for me over the past 2 years, I didn't like the fact that I couldn't put my top engine cover back on. By mimicking your work,it's much much neater and I belive it's a little tighter as well, by that I mean there is a little less chance of a vac leak coming out of the way it's set up now---not to say I have had one, but this just seems better--engine compartment looks almost stock except for one hose you can see going over to the catch can--
I like it better now when I open the hood and look under there---
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  #109  
Old 08-10-2012, 06:16 AM
liskoski liskoski is offline
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Hello,

at first I would like to say hello.

I would ask You if my PCV correctly conected. I've attached such screen.

Greetings from Poland.

P.S. Sorry for my English.
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  #110  
Old 08-10-2012, 10:02 AM
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eparayno eparayno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poolman View Post
Eparayno, I Got up this morning and set to work on my catch can set up to make it more the way your system is made , . Though my system has worked well for me over the past 2 years, I didn't like the fact that I couldn't put my top engine cover back on. By mimicking your work,it's much much neater and I belive it's a little tighter as well, by that I mean there is a little less chance of a vac leak coming out of the way it's set up now---not to say I have had one, but this just seems better--engine compartment looks almost stock except for one hose you can see going over to the catch can--
I like it better now when I open the hood and look under there---
Awesome news Poolman. I stared at my engine for a loooooong time imagining how to route everything. Using the stock connectors and distribution piece really helps especially how cramped it is under the hood. Once I do an electric fan conversion I will try to hide the hoses completely. I bet having an aftermarket intake would also help with the room

Quote:
Originally Posted by liskoski View Post
Hello,

at first I would like to say hello.

I would ask You if my PCV correctly conected. I've attached such screen.

Greetings from Poland.

P.S. Sorry for my English.
Liskoski the threaded part on the valve should be facing the intake.
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  #111  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:51 AM
liskoski liskoski is offline
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Aww.. I have attached new 'schema'. I hope, is proper now.

Could You explain me role of this valve in few simple words?
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  #112  
Old 09-09-2012, 01:52 PM
Chaos1187 Chaos1187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liskoski View Post
Aww.. I have attached new 'schema'. I hope, is proper now.

Could You explain me role of this valve in few simple words?
My understanding was the new PCV goes inline with the hose coming off of the valve cover threads pointed to the valve cover other end attached to inlet of Oil Catch Can and then outlet of Oil Catch Can would join back to the intake manifold is this correct? Please let me know for my clarification as well. I plan on doing this exact same setup on my E46 but sexier even sexier lol
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  #113  
Old 09-09-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Chaos1187 View Post
My understanding was the new PCV goes inline with the hose coming off of the valve cover threads pointed to the valve cover other end attached to inlet of Oil Catch Can and then outlet of Oil Catch Can would join back to the intake manifold is this correct? Please let me know for my clarification as well. I plan on doing this exact same setup on my E46 but sexier even sexier lol
Yup. The threaded portion of the PCV valve I used points to the valve cover/vacuum source. On the V6 Mercury engine that the valve comes from it screws into the intake manifold.
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  #114  
Old 09-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Chaos1187 Chaos1187 is offline
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Anyway we could include a things to buy list to simplify this? Could prob end up making a sticky on this I would imagine especially with the outcomes to date..
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  #115  
Old 09-09-2012, 03:21 PM
poolman poolman is offline
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I'm really pleased with the outcome on my car--the car was going through 1 qt every 1000 miles and before it never used a drop of oil until the CCV went bad. Like I have stated--I replace the CCV 3 times and never had any luck with the outcome from that, still used 1 qt every 1000 miles. I don't even check it anymore--it's like 1 qt every 4 to 5 thousand miles now. My car is getting great gass mileage and runs like a champ and now has 240k miles on her since I bought her new. This has saved my car in my book
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  #116  
Old 09-10-2012, 02:12 PM
Chaos1187 Chaos1187 is offline
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Thinking about getting this bad boy right here!

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  #117  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:09 AM
Chaos1187 Chaos1187 is offline
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I had a question for the guys who know their stuff. So capping off the dipstick tube would cut down on some of the vacuum the pcv system was using to pull excess blowby from the valve cover or no?

I was thinking this because instead of the pcv having two vacuums it now only has one..

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  #118  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:14 AM
poolman poolman is offline
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You would cap off the part of the dipstick tube that leads to the CCV. I used a large vacuum cap that I bought from Advance. The part of the dipstick that you use to check the oil, leave it as its--there are two 0 rings on the dipstick itself that stop that part from being a vacuum leak area.
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  #119  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:38 AM
Chaos1187 Chaos1187 is offline
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Yes I understand the capping off but my question is...does having one less vacuum point affect the vacuum in the pcv system? I imagine it was pulling a certain value of vacuum from the valve cover before would it be a changed value now?

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  #120  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:48 AM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos1187 View Post
Yes, I understand the capping off part, but my question is...
Does having one less vacuum point affect the vacuum in the pcv system?
I imagine it was pulling a certain value of vacuum from the valve cover before would it be a changed value now?

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The only place on the stock OEM CCV I6 system that draws vacuum is from the Intake Manifold/ Air Distribution Piece.
Real OEM link:
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...79&hg=11&fg=40


The purpose of the drain hose coming from the CCV valve to the oil dipstick tube, is to drain any excess oil from the valve back into the oil pan/ oil sump.

http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...94&hg=11&fg=15


Connecting the CCV to the intake is a catch-22 IMO...
You need something in the CCV system to give vacuum, but running the left-over crappy oil vapors and condensation to the intake is bad for the engine and bad for performance.
It is merely done for emissions.
However, the vacuum is functional/ needed.

That is why I am look to possibly using the Exhaust/ Scavenge system to draw vacuum, and possibly adding a vacuum pump into the mix...

Thanks!
Jason
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Last edited by Jason5driver; 09-11-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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  #121  
Old 09-11-2012, 01:32 PM
poolman poolman is offline
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You could have a vacuum leak at the dipstick tube where the dipstick is located--but the 0 rings stop air from leaking there--you could put a vacuum cap over that tube and run without a dipstick I guess--the newer cars don't have a dipstick at all for that matter. Only place that vac is pulled is from the distribution piece---and there are two ports on that part that are used to pull vacuum. On my first set up I only pulled from the fron port--in my latest set up I pull from both ports as from the factory and from there to my PVC valve which goes into the catch can--hope that helps

Got home this afternoon and found my son had made a catch can for his Honda Pilot--seems that over on their forum there were gents building these things to install and keep the top of their engine from gunking up like some of our cars do---isn't that something--
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  #122  
Old 09-12-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poolman View Post
You could have a vacuum leak at the dipstick tube where the dipstick is located--but the 0 rings stop air from leaking there--you could put a vacuum cap over that tube and run without a dipstick I guess--the newer cars don't have a dipstick at all for that matter. Only place that vac is pulled is from the distribution piece---and there are two ports on that part that are used to pull vacuum. On my first set up I only pulled from the fron port--in my latest set up I pull from both ports as from the factory and from there to my PVC valve which goes into the catch can--hope that helps

Got home this afternoon and found my son had made a catch can for his Honda Pilot--seems that over on their forum there were gents building these things to install and keep the top of their engine from gunking up like some of our cars do---isn't that something--
Hi Poolman...!

Any pictures of your son's catch-can?
What did he use to make it?

Thanks!
Jason
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  #123  
Old 09-12-2012, 02:21 PM
poolman poolman is offline
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Mein Auto: 525i station wagon
I don't do well with pic's Jason--sorry--I'm not that savy--on what he made the can out of--he did the same thing as I--went to Lowes and picked up heavy PVC 4 inch tube from the plumbing dept--cut the tube down to 5 inches high and then used two rounded caps to go over each end. on the top cap drill 2 1 inch hloes and then use grommets from the Help department at Advance auto to go into the 1 inch holes--On one ove the holes the PVC valve will fit and the other is just a 90% insert bought at the same department will fit--Along with this we use a 6 inch hose clamp from Lowes thats sold in the hardware area that would hold a dry vent hose to a house hold dryer. Hook you hoses from the distribution unit to the pvc valve and into the catch can and the other line from the valve cover over the the 90% bend. To mate the hoses to the valvecover --I used the original hose there with it cut off to where there is about 1 1/2 inch piece sticking out and then--Heavy duty shrink tubing from Fastenall--to the rubber hose--looks great and is really tough and does a great job of making it all look neat--wish I knew how to make a pic--but the wife handles that for me and she's under the weather right now--sorry about that
Chip
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  #124  
Old 12-04-2012, 07:46 PM
Sumotide17 Sumotide17 is offline
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Location: San Jose, CA
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 51
Mein Auto: 2001 540I/6 Sport
I purchased a 42 Draft stealth can and I'm looking forward to installing it.
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  #125  
Old 01-19-2013, 01:38 PM
eparayno's Avatar
eparayno eparayno is offline
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Location: Vista, CA
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 757
Mein Auto: 2001 530i
UPDATE:

After almost a year and 20k miles of driving everything is still running great. I finally emptied the catch can after about 7 months and about 3/4 of a cup of goop poured out, not bad at all. The hose leading to the intake is clean as a whistle so the catch can and PCV valve are working perfectly. The only problem now is a code P0741 for the torque converter, still have to get it diagnosed but I'm lazy and the car is still running great
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