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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #1  
Old 03-21-2014, 07:22 AM
ctorrey ctorrey is online now
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Negotiating Deals

I'm curious to understand how 'Festers have gone about negotiating 'Invoice Plus' deals. Obviously, they key component of that is determining what the invoice prices is. I've seen two ways to go about this; Internet research (e.g., Edmunds, True Car, etc.) and MSRP * .93.

During a recent negotiation, the dealer followed the 'MSRP * .93' approach. Unfortunately, I had 'Internet research' numbers and we were ~$400 off a $60k+ MSRP car. In this case, I got my Invoice +$500 deal, but still felt like I left money on the table. Wondering how others handled this situation.
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2014, 08:08 AM
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Technic Technic is offline
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Everybody will always leave money on the table negotiating a car purchase.

In your particular case you need to determine if a $400 discrepancy in a $60k MSRP car is worth the back and forth between the dealer and you. I hate with a profound passion the "back and forth", so if a dealer offers a $400 service where I do not have to even talk to anybody at the dealer and just order the car with all current incentives, invoice plus and base interest rate and do all paperwork at home via Internet then I will pay $500 for it.

If you feel the need to fight for the $400 then that's ok too. But again, there is always more money behind those $400. Always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctorrey View Post
I'm curious to understand how 'Festers have gone about negotiating 'Invoice Plus' deals. Obviously, they key component of that is determining what the invoice prices is. I've seen two ways to go about this; Internet research (e.g., Edmunds, True Car, etc.) and MSRP * .93.

During a recent negotiation, the dealer followed the 'MSRP * .93' approach. Unfortunately, I had 'Internet research' numbers and we were ~$400 off a $60k+ MSRP car. In this case, I got my Invoice +$500 deal, but still felt like I left money on the table. Wondering how others handled this situation.
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2014, 08:41 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Everybody will always leave money on the table negotiating a car purchase.

In your particular case you need to determine if a $400 discrepancy in a $60k MSRP car is worth the back and forth between the dealer and you. I hate with a profound passion the "back and forth", so if a dealer offers a $400 service where I do not have to even talk to anybody at the dealer and just order the car with all current incentives, invoice plus and base interest rate and do all paperwork at home via Internet then I will pay $500 for it.

If you feel the need to fight for the $400 then that's ok too. But again, there is always more money behind those $400. Always.
+1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




$400/$60,000 = less than 7/10ths of 1%. I've been using Edmund's to negotiate invoice plus deals since it was a quarterly paperback and I used to jokingly say my goal was to make my salesman cry. These days it seems that is the actual goal of many Bimmerfesters. I have a very strong feeling the vast majority of Bimmerfesters would refuse to work for the hourly rate many of them expect their CA to work for on their deal and I'm talking about the most highly competent CAs in the business.
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  #4  
Old 03-21-2014, 09:24 AM
Corn Flakes Corn Flakes is online now
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I leased a car a month ago for $1000 less than the invoice price. I am not a fester and my deal was to contact multiple dealers online "faking prices". So Dealer A quotes $x. Send an email to dealer B saying that dealer A is offering $x-500 and if dealer B can beat it..move on to dealer C and dealer D and so on.

I started negotiating at MSRP and ended up with invoice - 1000$.

I am not saying this will work for everyone everywhere, depends on various conditions..

Last edited by Corn Flakes; 03-21-2014 at 09:27 AM.
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  #5  
Old 03-21-2014, 09:38 AM
whoever whoever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corn Flakes View Post
I leased a car a month ago for $1000 less than the invoice price. I am not a fester and my deal was to contact multiple dealers online "faking prices". So Dealer A quotes $x. Send an email to dealer B saying that dealer A is offering $x-500 and if dealer B can beat it..move on to dealer C and dealer D and so on.

I started negotiating at MSRP and ended up with invoice - 1000$.

I am not saying this will work for everyone everywhere, depends on various conditions..
The number only make sense along with model, msrp and location. A 3 can range from $30-60K easily.

Why people don't like the % off MSRP approach? Isn't that the same but easier to find and compare?
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  #6  
Old 03-21-2014, 10:02 AM
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chiefneil chiefneil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctorrey View Post
I'm curious to understand how 'Festers have gone about negotiating 'Invoice Plus' deals. Obviously, they key component of that is determining what the invoice prices is. I've seen two ways to go about this; Internet research (e.g., Edmunds, True Car, etc.) and MSRP * .93.

During a recent negotiation, the dealer followed the 'MSRP * .93' approach. Unfortunately, I had 'Internet research' numbers and we were ~$400 off a $60k+ MSRP car. In this case, I got my Invoice +$500 deal, but still felt like I left money on the table. Wondering how others handled this situation.
My CA showed me his invoice prices since 2014 wasn't published publicly when I was ordering. I did invoice + $600. If you got invoice + $500 you did fine.

Negotiating off MSRP is trickier since not all options have the same markup over MSRP. Also when I picked up my car 3 months later, my CA said something about some of the option MSRP prices changing, but since I negotiated invoice+ I was protected. I wasn't really paying attention but I think that's what he meant anyway.

Regardless, for a 60k MSRP car it's not worth getting bent out of shape over a few hundred bucks. You probably spend more than that on your phone or a pair of shoes.
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  #7  
Old 03-21-2014, 10:19 AM
ctorrey ctorrey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
My CA showed me his invoice prices since 2014 wasn't published publicly when I was ordering. I did invoice + $600. If you got invoice + $500 you did fine.

Negotiating off MSRP is trickier since not all options have the same markup over MSRP. Also when I picked up my car 3 months later, my CA said something about some of the option MSRP prices changing, but since I negotiated invoice+ I was protected. I wasn't really paying attention but I think that's what he meant anyway.

Regardless, for a 60k MSRP car it's not worth getting bent out of shape over a few hundred bucks. You probably spend more than that on your phone or a pair of shoes.
My deal was ultimately an Invoice + $700 deal (exclusive of credits, fees, etc.) as I relented on the $200 Acquisition Fee markup. Still a reasonable deal IMHO. We're only talking $6 month on the lease. As others have mentioned, I'm not too bunged up about the $400 'invoice price' discrepancy on a $63k car. Going forward, I will probably use the .93% MSRP method and anything beyond that will be found money.
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Last edited by ctorrey; 03-21-2014 at 10:32 AM.
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  #8  
Old 03-21-2014, 12:11 PM
The Other Tom The Other Tom is online now
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The essence of a good negotiation is when both parties leave something on the table.
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  #9  
Old 03-21-2014, 03:23 PM
BMW220i BMW220i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Tom View Post
The essence of a good negotiation is when both parties leave something on the table.
The essence of a good deal, however, is when the buyer gets a steal.

I wonder what the lowest price someone has paid for a new F30? Maybe it was completely without options and a non-metallic color, as well as a good price for it. Maybe $29,900?
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  #10  
Old 03-21-2014, 04:19 PM
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The CA is entitled to make a decent living and get paid for their work. The client is entitled to try to keep as much of their money as possible. Why pay more for the same product unless you're getting great service? Just play nice and don't piss off too many dealers being a stubborn ass. That being said, I saw close to a $2800 spread on 4 dealers' bottom line price on a custom order 2014 328i with a MSRP of $47450. The board sponsors set the bar pretty high and some local dealers got defensive quick about their prices. I thanked them for their time and moved on. After all, I still need to get my car serviced locally.


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  #11  
Old 03-21-2014, 04:47 PM
Arciga18 Arciga18 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctorrey View Post
My deal was ultimately an Invoice + $700 deal (exclusive of credits, fees, etc.) as I relented on the $200 Acquisition Fee markup. Still a reasonable deal IMHO. We're only talking $6 month on the lease. As others have mentioned, I'm not too bunged up about the $400 'invoice price' discrepancy on a $63k car. Going forward, I will probably use the .93% MSRP method and anything beyond that will be found money.

+1 are. Any plans to sell your E90?
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  #12  
Old 03-21-2014, 06:56 PM
4awesome 4awesome is offline
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Greetings folks, first time poster here I'm an expat moving to the US in a few weeks and have an order on the books for a 435i coupe. I'd be grateful for some opinions on the deal I've been able to reach. I've done a lot of research but still find the different costs involved with buying a car in the US a bit unclear.

The MRSP for my car with options is $59,400, and I've been offered a sale price of $56,650 before tax. Indicative lease payment was $692/month with $6000 due at signing (higher up-front payment to ensure approval as I have no credit score). According to Edmunds this looks like a good deal because their TMV for this build is around $59,500 before tax!

Thanks!
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  #13  
Old 03-21-2014, 10:30 PM
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dwlink dwlink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4awesome View Post
Greetings folks, first time poster here I'm an expat moving to the US in a few weeks and have an order on the books for a 435i coupe. I'd be grateful for some opinions on the deal I've been able to reach. I've done a lot of research but still find the different costs involved with buying a car in the US a bit unclear.

The MRSP for my car with options is $59,400, and I've been offered a sale price of $56,650 before tax. Indicative lease payment was $692/month with $6000 due at signing (higher up-front payment to ensure approval as I have no credit score). According to Edmunds this looks like a good deal because their TMV for this build is around $59,500 before tax!

Thanks!
If they are quoting true market value as MSRP +$100 then something is horribly wrong with their software or some rich fool out there way-over paid. Invoice is 0.93 x base car price + 0.91 x options. $56,650 seems like it would be invoice +$1000 something. Its a so-so deal.
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  #14  
Old 03-21-2014, 11:41 PM
4awesome 4awesome is offline
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Based on what else I've read in this thread yes I guess it is probably a so-so deal. I guess you would need to factor in the fact that MY2014 production is about to finish and I needed the car ASAP so couldn't wait for MY2015. Short supply -> fewer discounts.
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Old 03-22-2014, 06:10 AM
whoever whoever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap4 View Post
The CA is entitled to make a decent living and get paid for their work. The client is entitled to try to keep as much of their money as possible. Why pay more for the same product unless you're getting great service? Just play nice and don't piss off too many dealers being a stubborn ass. That being said, I saw close to a $2800 spread on 4 dealers' bottom line price on a custom order 2014 328i with a MSRP of $47450. The board sponsors set the bar pretty high and some local dealers got defensive quick about their prices. I thanked them for their time and moved on. After all, I still need to get my car serviced locally.


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I guess you could question why a BMW CA deserve twice as decent living as, say, a kia sales person. They are no more knowledgeable or harder working.
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2014, 06:55 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoever View Post
I guess you could question why a BMW CA deserve twice as decent living as, say, a kia sales person. They are no more knowledgeable or harder working.
I think it's probably pretty fair to say being a highly competent BMW CA requires at least twice as much brain power than being a Kia sales rep. It is not uncommon for BMW CAs to have a bachelor's degree. I've helped my parents and my sister purchase a total of three Kias and from those experiences I think it is probably much less common for Kia sales reps to have a college degree.
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2004 330i ZHP Imola/NB - missed
2000 328i TiAg - gone but not forgotten

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  #17  
Old 03-22-2014, 07:25 AM
ifoney ifoney is offline
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I got mine below invoice, I think around 2000 below invoice, my dealer gave me a peep at his invoice list. I went to every dealership within 50 miles of where I live, mostly because I was looking for specific packages and no one had them in a color of my choice, so I got a pretty good idea of how low dealers can go on pricing. Once I found the car I like, I tried very hard to not get excited. Until the last moment, I always said I liked a different color better and was comparing different cars they had in stock. When my dealer gave me the least possible price on the car I liked, I called the other dealers and asked them to give me a lower price if they wanted my business in the next 2 hours, they all asked me to buy the car ASAP where I got that price because they couldn't even match it or sell me a similar spec car at $1000 higher, their management would not allow it.

Dealer will never sell you a car at loss, but you can get the best price possible when they have sales targets to meet. If you have the luxury of time at hand, you can do a lot more while negotiating pricing.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:40 AM
wacked wacked is offline
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I bought an f30 last week. Early on, I decided I'd go with % off of MSRP. I didn't think about the Invoice + X. I could've used invoice as a reference, I guess, by asking for X amount of discounts below invoice.

On my F30, Truecar.com's numbers were $44,225 MSRP and $40,700 invoice. I ended up at $38,447 + TTL.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:41 AM
ctorrey ctorrey is online now
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Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
+1 are. Any plans to sell your E90?
I am turning it in to the dealer rather than try to play games with the residual. They have a buyer for it - no 335i models to be had, so an eager acquisition for the dealer. Probably should have included this as part of the negotiation. Something like 'I'll take my business and rare model, low-mile lease return somewhere else'. Who am I kidding.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:48 AM
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gkr778 gkr778 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
I think it's probably pretty fair to say being a highly competent BMW CA requires at least twice as much brain power than being a Kia sales rep. It is not uncommon for BMW CAs to have a bachelor's degree. I've helped my parents and my sister purchase a total of three Kias and from those experiences I think it is probably much less common for Kia sales reps to have a college degree.
I can understand the benefit of a baccalaurate degree in automotive marketing and management for a dealership sales manager or general manager role, or for a marketing position at an automotive OEM. But for an automotive retail CA/salesperson? That seems dubious. If it's indeed common for sales staff at BMW dealerships to possess a BA degree, it's probably due career switching on the part of those individuals, not anything about the salesperson job role itself. That was the case with my CA at BMW of Silver Spring.

Not counting European Delivery, what exactly about being a BMW dealership CA requires at least twice as much brain power as the equivalent role at a Kia dealership?
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:29 PM
mrrun2fast mrrun2fast is online now
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Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
I can understand the benefit of a baccalaurate degree in automotive marketing and management for a dealership sales manager or general manager role, or for a marketing position at an automotive OEM. But for an automotive retail CA/salesperson? That seems dubious. If it's indeed common for sales staff at BMW dealerships to possess a BA degree, it's probably due career switching on the part of those individuals, not anything about the salesperson job role itself. That was the case with my CA at BMW of Silver Spring.

Not counting European Delivery, what exactly about being a BMW dealership CA requires at least twice as much brain power as the equivalent role at a Kia dealership?
I think it comes down to relationship mgmt skills. I have yet to find a salesperson from BMW, Audi, or any othe car manufacturer that has been fairly knowledgable about the car. In fact, for my last purchase, my client advisor had me talk to her manager about specific questions concerning my 428xi.

The internet has changed how we negotiate with car dealers. Pre-internet day, we didn't have any context of what's the market paying for a car. The buyer had to develop a relationship with their salesperson in order to not get screwed over. I'm 33 and doing well for myself, but I will negotiate the lowest total cost and I have no interest with developing a relationship with my salesperson given how I haven't seen a benefit to do so. At the end of the day, the dealer wants to maximize profits and I want to pay as little as possible. Somewhere in the middle we will meet if we're both comfortable with the deal. It's business. For my last two cars, I traveled 150-200 miles to save several thousand dollars vs my local dealers.

For the OP, find a volume dealer and they will typically give you the best deal.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:03 PM
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gkr778 gkr778 is online now
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Originally Posted by mrrun2fast View Post
I have yet to find a salesperson from BMW, Audi, or any othe car manufacturer that has been fairly knowledgable about the car. In fact, for my last purchase, my client advisor had me talk to her manager about specific questions concerning my 428xi.

The internet has changed how we negotiate with car dealers. Pre-internet day, we didn't have any context of what's the market paying for a car. The buyer had to develop a relationship with their salesperson in order to not get screwed over. I'm 33 and doing well for myself, but I will negotiate the lowest total cost and I have no interest with developing a relationship with my salesperson given how I haven't seen a benefit to do so. At the end of the day, the dealer wants to maximize profits and I want to pay as little as possible. Somewhere in the middle we will meet if we're both comfortable with the deal. It's business. For my last two cars, I traveled 150-200 miles to save several thousand dollars vs my local dealers.
All good points, mrrun2fast. In addition to your own experience obtaining a fair price on your F32, I think it's worth emphasizing the fact that most if not all CAs who are Bimmerfest sponsors will be able to provide members a fair 'Invoice +' price without hesitation along with great customer service.
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  #23  
Old 03-22-2014, 04:08 PM
68rustang 68rustang is offline
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Getting the lowest possible price for a given car is usually only part of getting a good deal. There is still plenty of money to be made when it comes to financing. If anyone ever thinks the dealer is losing money on a deal they are crazy.


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