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  #26  
Old 05-20-2012, 08:18 PM
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lilskel lilskel is offline
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Lino, at Vista, certainly knows what he's doing. If you want somebody to go in, sit down and talk face to face with, it's probably going to cost you more. If you want to have a 5min phone call or a few emails and say this is what I want, this is my address, send me the papers and I'll send you the check, then you will save a little money.

Fields in Orlando? Try at all cost not to sit down and speak with them, it will be time out of your life that you won't get back.
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2012, 08:53 PM
hauserc hauserc is offline
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I tried doing my ED with a local dealer here in South Florida. I even tried calling a local area dealer who I bought my last BMW from. They didn't care that I bought a car from them before. They just basically told me the ED MSRP was the "discounted" price. Not sure if that was from inexperience with doing ED or worse. Then I started calling all around the State of Florida and was basically getting the same ED MSRP price. I would have preferred to have bought within Florida but the price difference was well beyond the $500-$1000 mentioned in the posts above. Enough so that I leased my car out of state and spent the money I saved I my ED Delivery Vacation.

Last edited by hauserc; 05-20-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:24 AM
gator15 gator15 is offline
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Originally Posted by trucheli View Post
Obviously you haven't developed a relationship with any local dealers, otherwise you wouldn't have to go outside Florida for ED purchase.
I wonder what you call a huge saving +$500 over invoice to me that's just a fair deal. The day you become a repeat customer and build a relationship you will be able to get that and even better savings. By the way, FYI your CA can help you solve any issues, even with the service department. You can't expect to have the same treatment if you are not a client of your local dealership. Personally, I don't have to go outside my area, but that's me.
For my situation, a better deal would be impossible, as the dealer would then be making no money on my ED. I pay cash for my cars, no trade, so I don't have to rely on a dealer to give me a better trade in value or overlook certain items on a lease return. I will admit, some of your reasons are valid for having a local dealer, like the ability to easily return your lease etc. However, for me, a cash buyer, there are no reasons that exist for me to justify the huge price difference. That being said, I do expect the same treatment at my local service department, as they must honor everything that is in the BMW warranty contract. I don't expect a loaner car, and I don't need one, as I have two other cars. However, they are bound to repair my car the same exact way that they would if I bought the car from them. Further, I am taking delivery of my vehicle at the Performance Center and planned on doing so no matter where I bought the car from, so the benefit of having a local dealer to speed up delivery is again negated. I guess it really depends on your situation; for me, going to an out-of-state dealer was a no brainer.

I do think that you are looking at the equation wrong though. You suggest that I should pay more for the same exact car just so I can build a relationship with a local dealer. You have it backwards, I am the consumer and they need to earn my business. If they can't match a competitive price, then I will go elsewhere. That is the capitalist system that we live in. I have enough friends, I don't need to pay money to earn a "relationship."
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  #29  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:26 AM
gmblack3 gmblack3 is offline
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I live 20 mins away from Adrian at BMW of South Atlanta. Adrian is very upfront, professional and courteous. I needed to change our delivery date at the Welt two weeks out and Adrian took care of that with no issues.
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  #30  
Old 05-21-2012, 01:24 PM
trucheli trucheli is offline
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Originally Posted by gator15 View Post
I do think that you are looking at the equation wrong though. You suggest that I should pay more for the same exact car just so I can build a relationship with a local dealer. You have it backwards, I am the consumer and they need to earn my business. If they can't match a competitive price, then I will go elsewhere. That is the capitalist system that we live in. I have enough friends, I don't need to pay money to earn a "relationship."

First, the OP lives in Orlando, just 2 hrs from West Palm Beach and he was looking for a Trustworthy and experienced with ED? Which I recommended.

Second, I mentioned that saving $500 or $1000 by going out of state didn't make sense at all to me, and building a relationship with a local dealer had more value than the savings and hassle of waiting for the vehicle delivered to me, plus all the other reasons.

It looks like that $1000 to you is a big deal on the purchase of an expensive car. If that the case maybe you cannot afford the vehicle in the first place.

Can you say Penny Wise and Pound Foolish!!

By the way, $500 over invoice is not considered a competitive price for any dealership and if I were a car salesman and you come to my dealership with that offer I would laugh in your face and don't even waste my time talking to you.

Enough said about this thread.
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  #31  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:20 PM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by trucheli View Post
By the way, $500 over invoice is not considered a competitive price for any dealership and if I were a car salesman and you come to my dealership with that offer I would laugh in your face and don't even waste my time talking to you.
Another sign that you don't understand entrepreneurship and economics.

Greg Poland, who I bought my car from, sells a boat load of cars every month at this margin. Most of them he sells like mine - ED and PCD which means his dealership doesn't even touch the car, they only do the paperwork. Now at he must be selling about 30-40 like that a month to customers like me, on top of any local business. Mostly at $500-800 above invoice. That's 20,000 revenue a month for doing paperwork on cars his dealership doesn't even handle. And then he has local retail customers on top of that for which he may be able to charge higher prices.

It's a good business. And if you don't see it, then you have no understanding of economics.

Another way of looking at it is to compare you and me. Maybe the dealer makes $5k per car from you, and $1k per car from me. But I buy a new car every year, and you may not. So even from a life cycle value perspective people like me are attractive customers.

Now Adrian and Greg get this. Your dealer is probably too dumb to see the win-win opportunity and so does low volume business on mugs like you.

You say your dealer laughs at $500 over invoice. Well Greg sold me a car for a little bit more than that, and he drives a 2012 750i doing these deals by spades. I bet your dealer is driving some three series.
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  #32  
Old 05-21-2012, 07:15 PM
Red Lined Red Lined is offline
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Who is this Lino character? How much does he charge over invoice, and does he exclude Vista's famous 599 doc fee and 500 prep fee for EDs? I just find it very surprising that there may be one half decent soul within the confines of that dealership....
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  #33  
Old 05-21-2012, 07:35 PM
gator15 gator15 is offline
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Originally Posted by trucheli View Post
First, the OP lives in Orlando, just 2 hrs from West Palm Beach and he was looking for a Trustworthy and experienced with ED? Which I recommended.

Second, I mentioned that saving $500 or $1000 by going out of state didn't make sense at all to me, and building a relationship with a local dealer had more value than the savings and hassle of waiting for the vehicle delivered to me, plus all the other reasons.

It looks like that $1000 to you is a big deal on the purchase of an expensive car. If that the case maybe you cannot afford the vehicle in the first place.

Can you say Penny Wise and Pound Foolish!!

By the way, $500 over invoice is not considered a competitive price for any dealership and if I were a car salesman and you come to my dealership with that offer I would laugh in your face and don't even waste my time talking to you.

Enough said about this thread.
Well, maybe some dealers laughed at me, but I am laughing all the way to the bank. I am able to pay cash for every car that I buy because I don't leave money on the table in a deal. You bet I am going to get the best deal that I can. Just because I can afford to pay more doesn't mean I am going to. In fact, the deal that I got included much less hassle than a local dealer could provide. I emailed my specs, my dealer submitted my order. Try working out a good deal at a local dealer in five minutes. Time is money for me, and I saved a bunch of time and money working with my dealer instead of a local one.
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:12 PM
ProRail ProRail is offline
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Wow. Great thread. I am so glad I never had to sell BMWs for a living.
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  #35  
Old 06-07-2012, 06:19 PM
jcs jcs is offline
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I did ED 4 times through out-of-state dealers... and will do it again next time, next year maybe.

But, there is one thing to check: the Florida Lemon Law. I had problems with a 2001 325ci and tried to use the Florida Lemon Law... it didn't work because, I was told, the car had not been bought from a Florida dealer. OK, so I tried to use the Lemon Law from the state I bought the car from... it didn't work because the car was not registered in that state, or maybe IIRC, I was not living in that sate. Anyhow, the problem got fixed.

Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney and don't understand how these things work. Things might have changed since 2001. So check to see if it may apply to your situation.

Last edited by jcs; 06-07-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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  #36  
Old 06-07-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by trucheli View Post
What are a few of the "so many reasons" that working with an out-of-state CA/dealer has failed you on European Delivery?....actual experience, please, not speculation.
I hear all of the horror stories that don't necessarily get posted here about dealers from across the continent doing deals outside of their PMA (primary marketing area) making mistakes (screwing up tax, license, idiosyncratic issues) in mis-managing their deals. Every state is different, and someone like Adrian Avila is the only logical choice if you are in his geographical region. Also you might consider the economic implications if you live in a state that is struggling... Adrian has been taking exemplary care of Bimmerfest members for nine years now. Other CAs come and go.
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  #37  
Old 06-08-2012, 03:53 AM
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3ismagic# 3ismagic# is offline
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Originally Posted by trucheli View Post
Obviously you haven't developed a relationship with any local dealers, otherwise you wouldn't have to go outside Florida for ED purchase.
I wonder what you call a huge saving +$500 over invoice to me that's just a fair deal. The day you become a repeat customer and build a relationship you will be able to get that and even better savings.
I don't understand this mindset. It's like if by letting you rape me 3-4 times then we'll develop a "relationship" and you'll do me the favor of being slightly less aggressive when you rape me the 5-8 time? No thanks.

Not to Mention long gone are the days where sales people actually stick around a place long enough to even develop a "relationship" You are lucky If you recognize a single face buying a car every 3-4 years.

I tried REALLY hard to give my business to one of the local dealers in AZ. The CAs I talked to were horribly lacking in their basic knowledge of their product. One guy told me he'd have no problem ordering a car in a paint color that had been out of production more than a year. The deals they were offering were not even in the ball park and I had absolutely no confidence that the ED process would go smoothly. If the guy has no clue what BMW Apps is or what it does then can I really trust him not to Eff some detail of my order up, like say to be sure a check the box to add the paddle shifters?

Even with the travel and time costs of picking the car up in LA I saved more than $2000 going with Greg Poland (sponsor).
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  #38  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:08 AM
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640GC 640GC is offline
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Stealth.Pilot do you purchase cars sight unseen or do you go and test drive the vehicles first? How many hours of time did you take up with a local dealer(s)?

From my perspective if I'm going to take up a lot of a local dealers time, then I consider that time in making my markup decision. That's why I expect that someone who just processes the paperwork is going to charge less than someone who has invested time in me. Now after adding in this differentiator markup the local dealer still cannot get close, then fair is fair.

It's just being curteous and having consideration for other people.
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:19 AM
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^ in case of my 550i I was shopping for used one first so I test drove some cars on user car lots. For the upcoming M5 I test drove the car when I attended BMWs M5 experience in Spain.

That said the analogy I would use is this:

I am a Best Buy Reward Zone member. In addition to reading reviews I go to Best Buy and I look at electronics to pick what I want. Of best Buy is competitive I buy from them. If Amazon is competitive and I don't mind waiting or prefer Amazons return policy, then I buy from Amazon. Best Buy still gets much of my business but only of they are competitive. And the often are.

Showroom visiting online shoppers are an issue for all businesses. There are 2 paths here: charge people to enter the shop or try the goods, or be more competitive.

Car dealers are lucky because their competitors are at least bricks and mortar dealerships with similar cost structures. So they really have no excuse to be competitive. There is no logical reason Vista or Lauderdale can't price match BMW of South Atlanta. Now if they won't do it, then it's there loss. I gave them a chance to earn my business.
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  #40  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:41 PM
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In your case, you didn't take up a BMW dealers time so there is no value add that they provided.
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  #41  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:30 PM
neilk neilk is offline
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In your case, you didn't take up a BMW dealers time so there is no value add that they provided.
It's one thing if you knowingly waste someone's time and test drive a car with no intention of buying the car there, but it you make a legitimate offer on a car, then it's their fault that they couldn't sell you a car.

Dallas dealers were all about 2k over invoice, so I am doing a deal with a Texas dealer about 120 miles from me at $1K over invoice. It sounds like Adrian could probably beat that price by at least $250, but after factoring time, gas and plane tickets, that $250-500 saving didn't justify the other costs and time.
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  #42  
Old 06-10-2012, 02:23 PM
JaneB JaneB is offline
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Neilk, can you say who you are using?
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  #43  
Old 06-10-2012, 04:20 PM
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Technic Technic is offline
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I'm from South Florida and my last ED was from an out of state BMW dealer. It was at ED invoice plus $500, no other fees. The car was shipped from port to my local South Florida dealer for free by just filling up the ED paperwork with the receiving dealer identification code and not the selling dealer code. Yes, there is a form filled with ED that is specifically to enter the receiving dealer. And it can be any dealer and not the selling dealer. Remember the standard $895 (current) paid for transportation? That's from the port to the receiving dealer so there is no dealer favor done here. This is ED SOP and we all paid already for it.

So this transportation "hassle" that have been mentioned several times in this thread is just nonsense. As well as some dealers charging up to $750 to be the receiving dealer. Why? Because there is no preparation done for a ED car once is back unless you want the dealer to do another. My car was offloaded at the parking lot of my local dealer and the keys left at the front desk. They called me when the car arrived, got the keys and went straight to the service shop for the 1200 oil change/inspection. The car got no damage from the port and the scratched wheel done in Bamberg Germany was replaced at the VPC.

In other words, all the South Florida dealers that did not accept my offer of $500 over ED invoice are the ones "penny smart, dollar stupid".

The fact is that ED is just a 5 min paperwork and computer data entry. That's the reason of so many "$500 over invoice" ED smart salespersons across the country. You can sell 10 of those cars nationwide a week by phone and make a killing, and still be early for dinner. My car was Individual and all the configuration, ordering, and approval was handled by me and Individual directly via email and pdf presentations. My CA was not involved in the process at all.

Actually, the only thing that went less than perfect was due to my CA not selecting the correct trim in my car and leaving no time for BMW to correct it at the Welt. And I fixed that when I got the car back.

In other words, if you are not interested in saving money but to have some "relationship" with a CA then go ahead and pay whatever for ED. To me, my only "relationship" interest is with the Service Advisor and so far he does not care of which dealer I bought the car from. For ED, I'm looking for the cheapest price possible just because I will do 99% of the ordering work myself. I just need the CA to do just the paperwork and for that $500-$750 is more than enough IMO. If that's not enough then I keep looking for another one until I find him/her.

And now it could be nationwide...
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  #44  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:53 PM
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mwagner1 mwagner1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yobyot View Post
Get a complete rookie -- the newest, greenest salesperson in the dealer of your choice.

Then, negotiate for $750 over ED INVOICE (not MSRP), plus whatever stinkin' fees the dealer will insist on.

Two reasons to do it this way: first, an ED order is cut-and-dried. You do the paperwork right, the car is waiting for you in Munich at the time you picked. The ED department at BMW NA has all the knowledge you need. That avoids you needing to trust the salesperson -- an iffy proposition to begin with and one made more questionable because ED transactions are complex. Just make sure -- REALLY REALLY SURE -- that you get an order printout of what you ordered. Make sure it's code 111 -- "accepted at BMW AG" and that IT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT. You don't have to search hard to find some poor fools who relied on a salesperson to check everything out and got something they didn't expect when they arrived in Munich. Because dealer expertise is a theory, you are better off with the newbie, so you know from the beginning you have to manage the process yourself.

Second, the pricing is what it is. Start negotiating up from ED invoice. If the dealer won't start there, go somewhere else. Watch out for the dealers who tell you they only sell at ED MSRP because "the car is already discounted." That's the clue you need to have to tell you that under no circumstances do you want those bozos servicing your car during the warranty. That's because if the sales people are allowed to rip off you off during the negotiation process, it's a good bet the service people are incentivized to also shave costs and overcharge for work.

In short, the dealer matters little. They aren't your friends; it's a business deal. Go where you get the best deal. Just remember: the process is really dependent on YOU being anal -- not the salesperson. If BMW says bring three sheets of blank yellow paper or you won't get your car, THEY MEAN IT. No salesperson is going to track this for you.
WOW....what a sad and cynical post... I guess that you must have had some terrible experiences before.....glad I am sticking with Irv Robinson who is a top notch guy and wait, has become a friend,....and I live in south central Texas and Irv is in Chicago!!!!

Cheers,
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mwagner1 View Post
WOW....what a sad and cynical post... I guess that you must have had some terrible experiences before.....glad I am sticking with Irv Robinson who is a top notch guy and wait, has become a friend,....and I live in south central Texas and Irv is in Chicago!!!!

Cheers,
Like people in a legal process who are their own attorneys, car buyers who are "friends" with a "client advisor" know a buyer who's a fool.

Quite the contrary to what you think, I routinely have excellent buying experiences: I know they are out, by design, to fleece me. I remain on my guard -- polite, but wary -- and by stripping the emotion out of what is a commercial transaction, both sides end up with a fair deal.

My friends aren't on the other side of a commercial transaction. Salespeople use "friendship" as a classic way to disarm buyers. The easiest way to the wallet is through the handshake.
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  #46  
Old 06-10-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
The fact is that ED is just a 5 min paperwork and computer data entry. That's the reason of so many "$500 over invoice"
ED smart salespersons across the country. You can sell 10 of those cars nationwide a week by phone and make a killing, and still be early for dinner.
This is so not true.... They can be extremely labor-intensive, and the commissions are the absolute minimum (try $200/deal).
This is why in reality there are very few dealers willing to take ED deals at a nickel ($500) over, and why those of us who do
have so many customers. Reality check. I do become friends with most of my buyers too...

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  #47  
Old 06-10-2012, 08:21 PM
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Technic Technic is offline
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This is so not true.... They can be extremely labor-intensive, and the commissions are the absolute minimum (try $200/deal).
This is why in reality there are very few dealers willing to take ED deals at a nickel ($500) over, and why those of us who do
have so many customers. Reality check. I do become friends with most of my buyers too...

Fair enough.

In my own experience, my CA did exactly the ED paperwork and nothing else after ordering. And that's not stated in a bad way, actually it was a much better service than any other in-person-at-the-dealer CA before just because there was no BS, no back and forth and no waiting for the infamous manager's approval. Just a set price, several emails and that was it.

So somehow the $500 flat works quite well for several CA out there. And for me too.
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  #48  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:04 PM
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Fair enough.

In my own experience, my CA did exactly the ED paperwork and nothing else after ordering. And that's not stated in a bad way, actually it was a much better service than any other in-person-at-the-dealer CA before just because there was no BS, no back and forth and no waiting for the infamous manager's approval. Just a set price, several emails and that was it.

So somehow the $500 flat works quite well for several CA out there. And for me too.

I doubt there are many (read any) Dealer Principals out there willing to pay a CA a $500 flat for a deal profit that is a total of $500. There's not a penny left over to put in the bank let alone pay bills. There is no holdback or AVP bonus money with ED as there is with traditional deals. What dealer wants to net zero profit? How could they afford to stay in business if they did this regularly????



Figure in the cost of doing business (rent, lights, insurance, workman's comp, wages for office staff, technician's PDI fee, detailer, all other fixed operating costs, ...etc.) the deal is a loser any way you slice it if as you say "$500 mini" is the norm.



I am not complaining, but my relationship with ED customers is a long-term relationship often lasting 4-6 months, regularly involving email exchanges often numbering up to 100 total or more. Add in Preparing the ED Pre-Reservation request (date at The Welt), inputting the vehicle order in DCS (I do everything myself from start to finish), process all of the change requests in delivery date/time with ED Dept., and vehicle specs (most buyers have multiple changes in both), prepare European Delivery Purchase Order, send to customer, Fed-Ex it to Woodcliff Lake NJ, get lease application done with BMWFS, prepare purchase docs and execute, more Fed-Ex back and forth -- all before delivery occurs. After delivery, more emails (what boat is my car on, when is it coming, is it here yet?), and then everything involved in a professional delivery experience (another couple of hours face-to-face).

25 years ago I used to make more commission selling a $6424 MSRP standard Nissan Sentra than I do now on a $50k+ Bimmer here in 2012.

On the other hand, the CA taking ups on the sales floor is averaging a $400-$600 comm PNVR (per new vehicle retailed) or double that on CPOs, and the whole process is done usually in just a couple of hours. The dealer is making $1,500 - $2,000 on the front end gross, another $600-$800 in F&I on average, and also the hidden back-end money that ED deals don't pay to the tune of thousands, depending on the MSRP of the vehicle.

Your experience is not the norm, nor is a $500 mini. Not in the real world. At $500 over ED invoice we are working for close to minimum wage when all is said and done.

I have dealer friends all over the USA and only know a handful who do $500 over deals.

So, why do I do it? There's only one reason -- the intrinsic rewards of taking care of the members of the Bimmerfest online community that I helped to create and not much more. I do make friends with my customers, and that adds value to me personally. Honestly, I couldn't even afford to do it but for the residual income that comes with owning a stake in a major automotive website.


A respondent above suggests CAs doing this are getting rich?? At $200-$300 per car, how many would you have to retail in a month to accumulate "wealth"?

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Old 06-10-2012, 09:18 PM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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I was suggesting that if you can do these deals at $800-1000 over invoice plus doc fee and get 40 a month, it is a nice business in addition to your local customer business.

I find that you and the other forum vendors are quite entrepreneurial and applaud you. I'm sure you are doing better business than the guy at vista asking 3500k over and wondering why he can't close.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I was suggesting that if you can do these deals at $800-1000 over invoice plus doc fee and get 40 a month, it is a nice business in addition to your local customer business.

I find that you and the other forum vendors are quite entrepreneurial and applaud you. I'm sure you are doing better business than the guy at vista asking 3500k over and wondering why he can't close.
Take a wild guess: how many CAs in the US deliver 40+ BMWs/mo let alone 40 ED's?

I'm not being confrontational - that's not my intent, but for discussion's sake, please take a guess.

I would bet you are talking about the top 2-3% of all CA's, maybe less (top 1%) sell 40 or more total (including conventional US delivery + ED).

The average CA sells 7-8 cars/month total (new and used combined).
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