BMW will recall diesel models to fix emissions glitch

Originally Posted by Axel61

I guess we are screwed on this, anoher thing to Blame cancer on, WTF!!

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I saw that this morning. Life would be easer if we just got a list of the things that do NOT cause cancer. I'd imagine I would be a really short list.

The article appeared in the NYT this morning. Unfortunately you had to get past the headlines to understand that the basis was miners working in mines with old diesel engines in third world countries without up to date environmental regulations and little if any ventilation. The article stated that modern diesel engines in the US and Europe do not pose a danger. In fact since 2000, bus, truck and auto engines sold in the US were based on low and now ultra low sulfur fuel which effectively removes the carcinogen.

But, of course, if the headline were changed to read "Mine workers in third world countries were more likely to get cancer from old diesel engines no longer sold in the US than second hand smoke". No one would read the article.

Yeah, I read the article via a UK source and it was the same sort of headline but very clear the impression it left was not in sync with the content of the article itself.

Actually if you read the original WHO report what they said about the new diesels is that they do not know how or if the new emissions technology effected the carcinogenic properties of diesel emissions because there isn't enough data.

As usual, media coverage of science is p!ss poor. It doesn't help that the average American is scientifically illiterate.

Also the significance of this article is not the scientific finding that diesel emission are carcinogenic. There has been little doubt about that in the scientific community for decades. What's new is that the WHO finally decided to officially classify it as such. Previously it had officially been considered a "likely carcinogen".

Originally Posted by 3ismagic#

Actually if you read the original WHO report what they said about the new diesels is that they do not know how or if the new emissions technology effected the carcinogenic properties of diesel emissions because there isn't enough data....

There's at least one comprehensive study which addresses carcinogenicity and other acute and chronic health effects of exhaust from new-technology diesel - ACES Phase 3...

http://pubs.healtheffects.org/getfile.php?u=708

STUDY FINDS FEW HEALTH EFFECTS FROM NEW TECHNOLOGY DIESEL ENGINES:

(Boston, April 12, 2012) The first results of the most comprehensive study ever undertaken of the health effects of exposure to new technology diesel engines has found no evidence of gene-damaging effects in the animals studied, and only a few mild effects on the lungs, according to a report issued today by the Health Effects Institute (HEI)1. The study – the Advanced Collaborative Engine Study (ACES) – is exposing rats and mice for 16 hours a day to emissions from a heavy duty diesel engine meeting stringent 2007 US EPA standards that reduce emissions of fine particles and other pollutants by over 90% from levels emitted by older engines....

Full report at http://pubs.healtheffects.org/getfile.php?u=709 (228 pages)

Actually, another study shows that just a DOC can reduce mutagenicity (a rough indicator of carcinogenicity) in the gas phase to negligible levels...


Götz A. Westphal et al, “Mutagenicity of Diesel Engine Exhaust Is Eliminated in the Gas Phase by an Oxidation Catalyst but Only Slightly Reduced in the Particle Phase.” Environmental Science & Technology (2012), http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es300399e (abstract)


And, of course, DPF generally reduces particulate matter to background levels, so that source of mutagenicity is eliminated there.

Posted on the wrong thread . . . sorry!

Yes there is some data that is beginning to come on-line, but not nearly enough to drive policy yet. This type of policy recommendation/declarations (WHO/CDC/EPA etc.) tend to be very conservative (i.e. require a very high evidentiary basis) because of the political and economic implications. They require numerous high quality studies that include observational epidemiology studies and animal model based experimental toxicology studies.

I'm thinking about what I should do about the recall on my 2011 335d. I have seen a few people on this thread say that they have experienced a change in performance and fuel economy.

I remember a similar thing happening when Daimler/Chrysler Jeep had a recall on the Liberty CRD (a diesel). The Liberty was produced using a gas version of their automatic transmission and the torque converter was being chewed up by the torsion produced by a diesel engine. Their remedy was to detune the engine so the torque converter would not go out before the 36K warranty ended. Not only did the engine get lower performance, it lost 3-4 miles per gallon. What a debacle!

Hence, I am worried about this recall. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks!

Originally Posted by IndianaBahn

I'm thinking about what I should do about the recall on my 2011 335d. I have seen a few people on this thread say that they have experienced a change in performance and fuel economy.

I think they were just experiencing the car needing to relearn them. And primarily the transmission since it is adaptive. The last time a bunch of us had to get software done to our cars, most of us complained about the dip in fuel economy but the economy came back.

My car is still waiting on parts for one of it's warranties. I'd imagine I will notice a difference in performance since I think I had a drop in that due to whatever triggered the SES light. I just realized I forgot to ask them what the SES light was for the past two times they called me to give me status updates.

Thanks Snipe656,

It would be helpful if BMW would be more transparent about the recall. The letter offers little or no information on the side effects or cause of the recall. When I look it up on the recall website, still no information. Hence, I am uncomfortable for now. I hope more light can be shed on this.

Originally Posted by IndianaBahn

I'm thinking about what I should do about the recall on my 2011 335d. I have seen a few people on this thread say that they have experienced a change in performance and fuel economy.

I remember a similar thing happening when Daimler/Chrysler Jeep had a recall on the Liberty CRD (a diesel). The Liberty was produced using a gas version of their automatic transmission and the torque converter was being chewed up by the torsion produced by a diesel engine. Their remedy was to detune the engine so the torque converter would not go out before the 36K warranty ended. Not only did the engine get lower performance, it lost 3-4 miles per gallon. What a debacle!

Hence, I am worried about this recall. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks!

Unfortunately, I don't think you can opt-out of the recall. If you take your car in for service, I'm pretty certain that the dealer will be obligated to perform the recall work regardless of whether you want it done or not. I dropped my car off at the dealer yesterday to get the recall done. Maybe a coincidence (or the BMW mothership sent my car a message), but the "service engine soon" light came on when I was driving over to the dealer.

The dealer is taking care of some other stuff, so I'm in a 128i for a few days. It's not bad at all.

I just got my car back from having the recall performed yesterday. I haven't driven much, and what I have driven so far has been in city traffic. My mileage readout is showing 19MPG which is about 4MPG lower than what it has typically been for this kind of driving. Again, the sample size is too small to cause panic yet, but if this readout is any indication, my d now gets about the same mileage that the 335i loaner I was driving gets... which is not too impressive.

My FE seems to have suffered after the recall.
The range per tank was 800km and is now 700km!
I guess some of it is due to AC use.

Last time my software was 'updated' my FE suffered, especially in city driving.

I'm not worried as much about that as I am the people who have said that other systems (Audio, bluetooth) are 'slower.'

Originally Posted by 831Doug

Unfortunately, I don't think you can opt-out of the recall. If you take your car in for service, I'm pretty certain that the dealer will be obligated to perform the recall work regardless of whether you want it done or not. I dropped my car off at the dealer yesterday to get the recall done. Maybe a coincidence (or the BMW mothership sent my car a message), but the "service engine soon" light came on when I was driving over to the dealer.

The dealer is taking care of some other stuff, so I'm in a 128i for a few days. It's not bad at all.

I do not have my recall letter handy but it read like it was your choice if you wanted to do it or not. I only got one recall letter though and when I went in for service I found out that my car had two recalls but both for emissions.

After the recent major update, my city mpg has gone down like 4-5 mpg.
I fill at the same gas station and drive about the same and also checked the tire
pressures which are OK.
Not sure of the straight hwy miles are low or not.
In my case, the computer would not take the update or something, so they ordered a new computer which finally did take the update, but they had to repogram the sirius radio and also my navigation software, as everything got wiped out.
It took them like 8 days and I had a loaner.
They also replaced the belt tensioner as they said it was a bit noisy and also seat belt tensioner as sometimes it would not work properly.
Oh, well. i am mad that mpg has gone down so much.
i am going to call BMW and find out why.

Originally Posted by bballfreak

After the recent major update, my city mpg has gone down like 4-5 mpg.
I fill at the same gas station and drive about the same and also checked the tire
pressures which are OK.
Not sure of the straight hwy miles are low or not.
In my case, the computer would not take the update or something, so they ordered a new computer which finally did take the update, but they had to repogram the sirius radio and also my navigation software, as everything got wiped out.
It took them like 8 days and I had a loaner.
They also replaced the belt tensioner as they said it was a bit noisy and also seat belt tensioner as sometimes it would not work properly.
Oh, well. i am mad that mpg has gone down so much.
i am going to call BMW and find out why.

Please let us know what response you get. I too have the same feeling. Since the recall car runs the same, highway mileage is the same, but around town local driving MPG does seem to have taken a hit. I was always averaging over 30. Now it's in the high 20's. Yes we all are using AC now so may be part of it.

My configuration - 20 inch RFT (Option 214) with 3rd row seating.

From about 5,000 miles to about 30,000 miles my mpg held steady around 23.5 mpg - city/hwy mixed (60/40). Over three tanks of diesel I checked the accuracy of the indicated mpg - it was within 1/10th mpg - quite remarkable.

Around 31,000 miles mpg started to drop - went all the way down to about 21.5 mpg - just under 10% drop.

Driving pattern remained exactly the same and I purchase the same brand diesel (Chevron) from the same station.

After the latest recall (in my case only the EGR valve was replaced plus the software update) the mpg picked up - almost back to 23.5 mpg . . . now it is trending back down again - currently around 22.2 mpg.

I am going to wait until next service visit (probably around Nov. 2012) before doing anything. My guess - it is the latest software update that is causing this . . .

Originally Posted by 831Doug

Unfortunately, I don't think you can opt-out of the recall. If you take your car in for service, I'm pretty certain that the dealer will be obligated to perform the recall work regardless of whether you want it done or not. I dropped my car off at the dealer yesterday to get the recall done. Maybe a coincidence (or the BMW mothership sent my car a message), but the "service engine soon" light came on when I was driving over to the dealer.

The dealer is taking care of some other stuff, so I'm in a 128i for a few days. It's not bad at all.

831Doug,

You may want to check your letter - the recall is not compulsory. I haven't read the terms of sale, but I would be surprised if they had a self-help clause like Microsoft has for their software. In Virginia and Indiana, when you purchase a car, you own it. I went through this with Daimler/Chrysler when they attempted to do a recall that would reprogram my Jeep CRD. The dealer or car repair facility must get your permission to make any substantive changes in your car or they are subject to litigation should you choose to seek remedy. BMW owns the moniker, but we own the car.

As far as the SES light, if there is a problem, they must fix it under warranty with something that is acceptable to you. For example, if this recall results in diminished performance or economy (the product does not perform as specified or as designed), then you have reason to seek remedy. If it is a design flaw, then there is a likelihood that there would be more people who are subject to this and BMW would be chancing a class action situation.

Two tanks after the recall the car drives the same. We get 2mpg higher highway FE around 29-30mpg, 1-2mpg lower FE in the city around 21-22mpg but it could be because of the AC during the hot 95-97 degrees days in NE US
I suspect the software update made more frequent use of DPF during city driving and respectively more fuel wasted to burn the soot but I cannot confirm this, just a thought

Originally Posted by IndianaBahn

831Doug,

You may want to check your letter - the recall is not compulsory. I haven't read the terms of sale, but I would be surprised if they had a self-help clause like Microsoft has for their software. In Virginia and Indiana, when you purchase a car, you own it. I went through this with Daimler/Chrysler when they attempted to do a recall that would reprogram my Jeep CRD. The dealer or car repair facility must get your permission to make any substantive changes in your car or they are subject to litigation should you choose to seek remedy. BMW owns the moniker, but we own the car.

As far as the SES light, if there is a problem, they must fix it under warranty with something that is acceptable to you. For example, if this recall results in diminished performance or economy (the product does not perform as specified or as designed), then you have reason to seek remedy. If it is a design flaw, then there is a likelihood that there would be more people who are subject to this and BMW would be chancing a class action situation.

It is a voluntary program. Interesting that I just re-read the letter and it says that "NOx emissions standard could be exceeded, along with the illumination of the Service Engine Soon Lamp." So, I'm on my way to the dealer for the recall and my light actually went on. Guess my option would be to either drive with the light on or tell them to re-set the light and not do the recall work? Probably a catch-22. I'm not that worried about it.

Originally Posted by 831Doug

It is a voluntary program. Interesting that I just re-read the letter and it says that "NOx emissions standard could be exceeded, along with the illumination of the Service Engine Soon Lamp." So, I'm on my way to the dealer for the recall and my light actually went on. Guess my option would be to either drive with the light on or tell them to re-set the light and not do the recall work? Probably a catch-22. I'm not that worried about it.

What I suspect is that the EGR is having problems and clogging up and the recirculating of the residue elements are not making their way to be burnt. Perhaps following this thread will shed some light. I wish someone from BMW would chime in. Good luck!

Hmm. Going through the letter with a fine tooth comb, there's a note for California residents. Basically, if you don't get the work done you could jeopardize your emissions warranty. It also says that the dealer will provide you with a certificate of repair, which the State of California may require for proof that the emissions recall was done.

Always something, huh?

It may be all in my head but after the recall it seems as the shift points have been programmed higher for light/medium acceleration. This would easily explain a drop in city MPG while not impacting highway MPG.