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  #26  
Old 06-01-2004, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloII///M
So frustrating to finish a run and realize that you just weren't looking ahead far enough. I kept repeating that theme throughout the weekend and for some reason I just didn't do it. I really will be happy to get back in my own car again...
I resemble that remark also.

Although the whole weekend, most of the time I WAS looking ahead. Just not pushing the car hard enough.

Time for an Evolution Challenge School on the Hoosiers.

But I did have fun. The course was awesome, but in some ways un-balanced, in that it din't have any real slow spots. To me, and autocross should have slow spots, you know, ones where you have to consider 1st, even if you don't actually downshift.
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  #27  
Old 06-01-2004, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ·clyde·
I'll do a write up later (preview: I sucked). Still too tired, and right about to go out to a late breakfast with the family.
Here's an overview...

Friday was kinda fun. I got there in the early afternoon and watched a little of people doing the practice course, but didn't buy any tickets to run it myself. Mostly, I just sort of hung out with people I knew and met a bunch of new people (many of them courtesy of TeamZ4, who codrove my car at the event). In the evening, I got the wheels changed, put the car through tech and registered. Then I walked the course three times. It looked long and fast and very fun. I left my car there and Nick gave me ride home.

I got there early on Saturday and walked it a couple more times. Then there was the drivers meeting, followed by an extremely long wait for the grid sheets which should have clued us all in to how many delays we would face throughout the day. B Stock was in the first heat and I'd like to say that I drove so sh:tty was that the tires never got up to temp, it would be a lie. I just drove like absolute crap. Seriously, it felt like it was my worst outing in the car by far (later confirmed by my tracking spreadsheet) . I didn't come close to performing at my normal, mediocre level. It was a 64 second course and my best was a 69. TeamZ4 beat me by over two seconds and it was his first time in the car. I was 5 seconds off the BS leader, and I was surprised it wasn't more. I was just bad (and not in a Jules type "bad motherfcuker" kind of way). I sucked on my first run and only sucked a little less on the following two. The competition at the front of BS was pretty intense with just .5 seconds separating 1st and 5th (in a class of 16).

I hung my head in shame the rest of the long day. They didn't finish the sixth and final heat until after 8pm. I think they expected to be done by 5pm. I worked the fourth heat. They sent us out there and it was 30 minutes until the first car went off. Never heard what that delay was about. The walkthroughs of the Sunday course got started after dark. It was mostly the same course being run in reverse but there were some changes...changes that were being made after the walkthroughs started.

Sunday morning I got to the site early and walked it pretty quickly twice. Then I sat down and drove it in my head about 20 times. Got up and walked it twice more. Aside from a short hiccup where someone forgot to change the start and finish light wires, things got off almost on time and the day ran very smoothly compared to Saturday. Our grid spot really sucked on Sunday though (same spot as Saturday). We were near the four portapotties covering all ~360 entrants + their "support" personnel and they hadn't been emptied overnight after being filled before the end of Saturday's portion of the event. The important thing was that my driving improved a lot and I turned in a more normal mediocre performance. I was calm and relaxed and had done a better job of visualization than I had on Saturday. I still need to learn to drive the car.

Overall, I learned a lot. Most important...if possible, work the gate Friday morning for two hours and be done with my work assignment for the weekend. DC region autocrossers have not cornered the market on friendliness or helpfulness. It's great to see that it's something that appears to be nearly universal. Getting your ass stomped by good drivers is a good thing (at least once or twice). It was a great and eye opening experience and I'm looking very forward to the ProSolo this coming weekend (I just hope my body recovers in time...my back is stiff as a board now).

Finally, I want to say thanks to pinecone and Mrs. pinecone for the hospitality tent, company, commentary and everything else. Thanks to bren for moral support and trying to throw light on a situation in the dark. Thanks to Nick for the rides Friday and Sunday, the diet Sprites and help packing tires. And also, a big thanks to TeamZ4 for a bunch of things like not embarrassing me too bad in my own car, throwing yourself into trying to get the rear shocks adjusted, suggestions on setup, guidance on stupid little procedural things. As good as the weekend would have been without you, you guys made it even better for me.
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  #28  
Old 06-01-2004, 07:11 PM
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So how were your times on Sunday?

In comparison to the top of BS? Mark?
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  #29  
Old 06-01-2004, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
So how were your times on Sunday?

In comparison to the top of BS? Mark?
Sunday's course had a fast BS time of 56.5 to my 59.2. Mark's times? Well, uh, he had some trouble keeping it between the cones on Sunday. His best raw time was a 58.7.

One of the things that I really liked on Sunday was that there is a local guy that I beat for the first time (in the RX-8) and he said that he felt like he drove as well as he normally did. I got in spitting distance of another local guy that I've been chasing, but he felt like he had an off day.

FWIW, compared to the 37 locals that I'm tracking myself against which competed this weekend, I was 98.9% as fast as the average time. On Sunday, I was 101.7% as fast as the average. My improvement versus two of the other BS drivers I'm tracking (that ran BS in the event) was right about the same percentage. The third driver is the one that felt he had an off day on Sunday. I went from being 93% as quick on Saturday to 99.7% on Sunday.
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Last edited by clyde325xiT; 06-02-2004 at 09:37 AM. Reason: correction of a world famous clyde math error
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  #30  
Old 06-01-2004, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
Here's an overview...
Great write up Clyde. I'm glad to hear Sunday went a little better. Sounds like our weekends were very similar.




Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
So how were your times on Sunday?

In comparison to the top of BS? Mark?
Saturday's results:
http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/Fil...dctour-sat.pdf

Sunday's results:
http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/Fil...dctour-sun.pdf
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  #31  
Old 06-01-2004, 09:03 PM
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Mark had issues

actually the car has a lot of oversteer and when pushed hard in the slaloms it would get a little crazy or being the first driver out on cold rear tires we dialed a lot of it out with air pressures, but really needed to change the rear shock settings. We tried to do this Sat evening, but discovered it was going to require dropping the rear control arms and it was quickly getting dark so that didn't happen. My Sun. raw times don't show the cars potential as tires were cold on the first run, on my 2nd run I was absolutely blitzing and even made it past the slalom that caught me on my later runs when a downed cone was right in the middle of the line so I had no option but to stop for a rerun , then on my rerun I coasted a ways after getting sideways and hitting the slalom pylon, did the same thing on my 3rd run but coasted past the next slalom cone so DNF. IMO Clyde's RX8 was easily capable of a 57 sec run on Sunday's course, I just didn't get the job done All the cones I hit Sat were also getting crossed up in the slaloms, and even on my last run just slowing down to get through clean rather than hitting cones and coasting resulted in a clean but faster time.

All in all, the RX8 is perhaps the most fun Stock class car I've ever driven. I love the handling even with the off-throttle oversteer which only requires some driver adaptation and suspension tuning. It's a monster in the sweepers, OMG if only my BMW would hang like that with the throttle planted all the way around
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Last edited by TeamZ4; 06-01-2004 at 09:05 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-01-2004, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Witness my poor driving on Sunday in all its glory...

Man was I far from the cones, and my driving was far too tentative.

http://nrubenstein.dreamhost.com/200...%20Run%202.WMV
That video's awesome! what kind of camera did you use?


here the video of my last run on Saturday

Amazing all the mistakes you see after the fact!

Last edited by AC; 06-01-2004 at 10:15 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2004, 04:45 AM
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I'll give my more detailed writeup now that I'm not (for the moment) absolutely swamped here at work due to skipping most of friday

The course really was incredible. Very similar to last year's DC tour course (I didn't run the tour last year, but we duplicated the course for a local event). I don't particularly like the lot - it bows up in the middle so essentially all of the course's turns are off camber, and several are blind. Looking ahead was important but tough.

I went out on my first run on Saturday thinking I should get to know the car (Matt Williams' BSP M3). I hadn't driven it before, except at the test and tune course, but it was impossible to get a feel for it on that short course. Bad strategy for the first run. I should have gone all out and at least got the tires warmer, but I didn't. Oh well. Car is a monster through, well, everything. It's a very mildly prepared BSP car - basically bars, H&R springs, camber plates and Konis on wide wheels and 255/40 Kumhos.

My first two runs were clean but slow (low 66). My third run I realized I had to push the car hard and produce - I ran a 64.861, about .93 off the car owner and significantly back from the leader who ran a 63.5xx. I went home knowing that I hadn't pushed the car enough, I wasn't getting on the gas early enough and I wasn't carrying enough speed through the slaloms.

Sunday I changed my strategy and went out to warm the tires on my first run. Ran a 57.57. I felt pretty good about that as a first run, but the shocking thing is even going out to push the car ridiculously hard I didn't even come close to its limits. That 3 degrees of negative camber really wakes up an M3! My next run was a throwaway to try to find the edges of the car - the +3 next to the time indicates that I guess My fourth run I cleaned up but went slower. I definitely had my problems out there, mostly not getting on the gas early enough and not being agressive enough. Having only three runs is tough!

Ended up fourth in a class of 14. Happy with the finish, unhappy with my driving. Next year, B Stock!

I had a great time, though. Looking forward to driving Clyde's RX-8 in two weeks especially after Mark's writeup on it. Sounds fun!!
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  #34  
Old 06-02-2004, 05:15 AM
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Clyde... sounds like you're getting there.

Clyde or Mark: So from the sound of the handling, were you going to take some rear rebound out of the 8?
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  #35  
Old 06-02-2004, 05:23 AM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
Clyde... sounds like you're getting there.

Clyde or Mark: So from the sound of the handling, were you going to take some rear rebound out of the 8?

no, it's on full soft, my plan is to put more in. IMO the oversteer issue is from the rear end hiking up too much and unloading the rear tires.

I'm trying to convince Clyde to let me do it this weekend, but he is resisting. You guys may have to hold him down while I perform the necessary surgery. Sometimes friend's have to do this for your own good.
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  #36  
Old 06-02-2004, 06:42 AM
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Mark, John... great write ups!! I enjoyed reading them.

John, 4th place in BSP at a national event?!?! I'm impressed!! Congratulations!!

Mark, that's the most I've ever heard you talk about one of your events. You should do that more often... I enjoy reading them. I have a feeling you're going to cause a bunch of people to run out and bye an RX-8. I can't wait to hear how the car does once it's dialed in.
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  #37  
Old 06-02-2004, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamZ4
no, it's on full soft, my plan is to put more in. IMO the oversteer issue is from the rear end hiking up too much and unloading the rear tires.

I'm trying to convince Clyde to let me do it this weekend, but he is resisting. You guys may have to hold him down while I perform the necessary surgery. Sometimes friend's have to do this for your own good.
My brain was all mushy Saturday night and was not firing on all 8 cylinders (as if I had any to begin with ) so I didn't realize what I was seeing. When we unbolted everything as much as we did and the shock dropped down a little bit, it dropped far enough that looking through the trunk, I could see the adjustment tab at the top. I think there was enough room to get to it and turn it with pliers. If that's the case, we could have done them both Saturday night with the light that we still had.

Something else I was wondering about a while ago that I had forgotten about...I saw a thread a while back on corner-carvers about remote shock adjustments. Might it be possible/worthwhile to try to fashion something that attached something like a speedometer cable to the adjustment tab at the top of the shock if there's enough room in that "box" (for lack of a better term) and then run the cable out from behind the trunk liner? I was thinking along the lines of a cable with a small gear at one end that would go to the shock. I would mesh that gear with another small one that would go on the adjustment tab that had a slot for the tab. Then, of course, the other end of the cable would have a knob of some kind to make the adjustment. I don't have my rulebook handy, but IIRC, it should be stock legal so long as I can't adjust them from the driver's seat, correct?
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  #38  
Old 06-02-2004, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy
Mark, John... great write ups!! I enjoyed reading them.

John, 4th place in BSP at a national event?!?! I'm impressed!! Congratulations!!
In my honest opinion, John did not look very good on any of his runs through the long section of the course I worked both days compared to how he looks in his own car. WIth more seat time, I think he could have given Lee a real run for his money...and Lee was the course designer.

Quote:
Mark, that's the most I've ever heard you talk about one of your events. You should do that more often... I enjoy reading them. I have a feeling you're going to cause a bunch of people to run out and bye an RX-8. I can't wait to hear how the car does once it's dialed in.
One of the bigger problems that I've had this year is dealing with everyone and their friend asking me, "How do you like the car?" and, "How does the car run?" Frequently, after a quick answer, the next comment from these people is, "I've been thinking about one..." Seriously, it takes me twice as long to change my wheels as it should becuase of it. There seems to be a lot of interest in the car, at least in the DC area. If the S2Ks go to AS next year...hoo boy. I don't have the experience to say this with certainty, but I really don't think that the 00-03 S2Ks totally outclass the RX-8 as it is. The S2Ks are fully developed and sorted now and people have been driving them for a while. I'm not sure that anyone other than Tim Pryor is really trying to develop a nationally comeptitive RX-8 yet...My budget and time avialability limits me to a pretty half assed effort.
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  #39  
Old 06-02-2004, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
My brain was all mushy Saturday night and was not firing on all 8 cylinders (as if I had any to begin with ) so I didn't realize what I was seeing. When we unbolted everything as much as we did and the shock dropped down a little bit, it dropped far enough that looking through the trunk, I could see the adjustment tab at the top. I think there was enough room to get to it and turn it with pliers. If that's the case, we could have done them both Saturday night with the light that we still had.

Something else I was wondering about a while ago that I had forgotten about...I saw a thread a while back on corner-carvers about remote shock adjustments. Might it be possible/worthwhile to try to fashion something that attached something like a speedometer cable to the adjustment tab at the top of the shock if there's enough room in that "box" (for lack of a better term) and then run the cable out from behind the trunk liner? I was thinking along the lines of a cable with a small gear at one end that would go to the shock. I would mesh that gear with another small one that would go on the adjustment tab that had a slot for the tab. Then, of course, the other end of the cable would have a knob of some kind to make the adjustment. I don't have my rulebook handy, but IIRC, it should be stock legal so long as I can't adjust them from the driver's seat, correct?
You could probably buy a couple of those flexible shaft adapters that they sell for Dremel tools and adapt those pretty easily.
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  #40  
Old 06-02-2004, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
My brain was all mushy Saturday night and was not firing on all 8 cylinders (as if I had any to begin with ) so I didn't realize what I was seeing. When we unbolted everything as much as we did and the shock dropped down a little bit, it dropped far enough that looking through the trunk, I could see the adjustment tab at the top. I think there was enough room to get to it and turn it with pliers. If that's the case, we could have done them both Saturday night with the light that we still had.

Something else I was wondering about a while ago that I had forgotten about...
There is an adjustment knob ON the shock? I thought you guys said the shock had to be disassembled

The cable operated adjuster sounds like a fun engineering project. My biggest concern would be with some of the posts that mention the Koni adjuster being very stiff and difficult to turn; it might just cause the cable to twist and bind without actually turning the knob.

I don't know about you guys but I am seriously looking forward to the Pro this weekend....and I'm not even driving. It's nice to finally have some decent weather and be able to hang out in the parking lots again
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  #41  
Old 06-02-2004, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
In my honest opinion, John did not look very good on any of his runs through the long section of the course I worked both days compared to how he looks in his own car. WIth more seat time, I think he could have given Lee a real run for his money...and Lee was the course designer.
Go ahead, you can say it, I sucked up that uphill section. I never did figure it out. I watched the video later and I was positioned poorly for the left hander out of the double-box section due to trying to carry too much speed there, which caused me to be late to the next two gates. One of those situations where I knew I was botching it up but was powerless to get it through my thick head. Next year.

Andy thanks for the kind words, hopefully we can meet up at some point for some B Stock action

Clyde, let's keep our fingers crossed that the SCCA does move those cars. I think the RX-8 could do well against the S2ks as it is now, if they move them it will kick some serious ass!
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  #42  
Old 06-02-2004, 07:54 AM
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AC,

From the SCCA's press release (I would link, but I can't find a static link that doesn't result in an error):

Quote:
Andrea Cairone, of New York, N.Y., finished ahead of the rest in A Street Prepared in the Axis of Oversteer 2001 BMW M Coupe. His time of 122.003 seconds was 0.299-sec. better than silver-finisher Kienan Weber, of Chesapeake, Va., who drove the Coastal Glass-sponsored 2004 Corvette. Cairone’s teammate, Carolos Gomez, of New York, N.Y., finished third in the shared BMW.
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  #43  
Old 06-02-2004, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloII///M
Andy thanks for the kind words, hopefully we can meet up at some point for some B Stock action

Yup, I'd like that!! Of course, if you wanted to race BSP that day, so not to embarrass me, that would be fine too.
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  #44  
Old 06-02-2004, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
I don't have my rulebook handy, but IIRC, it should be stock legal so long as I can't adjust them from the driver's seat, correct?
The SAC/SEB has been very clear that cutting access shock adjustment holes through metal panels/bulkheads is not allowed, only plastic/composite items such as interior trim panels, etc.

So you'd have to search for a pathway into the very top bulkhead where the shock top sits, I didn't see anything readily available, plus the Koni adjuster takes quite a bit of force as it is rotated towards the max stiffness setting - not sure how feasible the remote adjuster idea is

However, you may be right, I never did look inside the trunk area once we dropped the shock off it's mount to see if we had enough clearance to adjust it without removing it fully

TeamZ4 TeamZ4


also, a friend of mine who works for Ford just got me into the employee/friend discount program for which Mazda vehicles also can be bought, I can get a new RX8 for only $23k

I gotta disagree with you though, IMO the RX8 will not run with the top BS cars, particularly on a high grip surface like Topeka. IMO the Houston results are not a very good indicator of what will happen at Nat's.
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Last edited by TeamZ4; 06-02-2004 at 01:35 PM.
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  #45  
Old 06-02-2004, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamZ4
The SAC/SEB has been very clear that cutting access shock adjustment holes through metal panels/bulkheads is not allowed, only plastic/composite items such as interior trim panels, etc.

So you'd have to search for a pathway into the very top bulkhead where the shock top sits, I didn't see anything readily available, plus the Koni adjuster takes quite a bit of force as it is rotated towards the max stiffness setting - not sure how feasible the remote adjuster idea is
I'm not talking about cutting anything. If I could use a cable, I could go at it from below and to the side, where there are gaps/holes in the metal:



I'd have to figure out a way to fix the gears in place too, of course. I have no clue whether the cable and gears could transfer/apply enough force. I'm not an engineer and I've never played one on TV.

Quote:
also, a friend of mine who works for Ford just got me into the employee/friend discount program for which Mazda vehicles also can be bought, I can get a new RX8 for only $23k


Quote:
I gotta disagree with you though, IMO the RX8 will not run with the top BS cars, particularly on a high grip surface like Topeka. IMO the Houston results are not a very good indicator of what will happen at Nat's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
I don't have the experience to say this with certainty, but I really don't think that the 00-03 S2Ks totally outclass the RX-8 as it is.
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  #46  
Old 06-02-2004, 05:05 PM
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Clyde,

Great write up, and we had a great time hanging around with you and Nick for the weekend. Too bad I won't be around for the Divisional. But if something changes, we will cook out on the deck one evening.

How MY weekend went.

I got into the Evolution Private Coaching Session. It was nice to get some quick runs in without waiting in line for a LONG time between runs ( I got around 10 - 14 runs in the morning). They were not much better organized than the SCCA was, but this was the first Coachin session and NOT the first SCCA event. The SCCA didn't get the timing up until about half way through our 2 hour session. So I have no idea how much I changed, but it did help. I managed to do a best of 23.7 in the morning.

As I watched in the afternoon, the fast BSP guys were running the practice in the 23.4 - 23.8 range, so I figured I would do alright. I had gotten up not feeling well and lunch did not settle well. SO the afternoon when I burned some of the "free" tickets they gave us, the best I could run was a 24.1 and it was SLOPPY.

Waited and walked the course with Nick twice, then hooked up with Tim Aro (one of the Evo instructors) for a walkthrough. That really helped as he advocated a much more flowing, keep the speed up line, which was the right way to do the course. I went home on a high note.

Saturday morning, walked the course once or twice. I worked the heat that Clyde and Mark ran. The RX-8 does hike the rear a bit. But so do the S2000s. But they may need it and the RX-8 doesn't. The first heat ran 3 hours (YES, THREE HOURS).

Waited and waited and waited to run the 4th heat. Did a quick walk between 3rd and 4th heats. Got in the car, ready to run about 3 PM and then waited another 20 minutes. By that time I was not a happy camper.

First run, felt smooth, eyes out in front, but a dismal 71 seconds. Second run I pushed harder and was still smooth and still slow, but picked up 2 seconds. Same on the third run to get down to a 67.xx final run for the day. As John said, fast was a 63.5. I just never got the car working. It was just going along wondering if we were out for a leisurely Saturday drive.

People started walking the course BEFORE it was opened for walking, that why changes appeared afterwards. I gave up and went home to get some sleep. We left around 9:30.

Sunday, I was whipped, and discouraged. But the day did run much smoother. the first heat started ON TIME and was over in about 1.5 hours.

Got on course and tried to run hard the first run, actually got the car working a few places, but slow at a 60.4. Next run I pushed harder, but wasn't smooth and netted a whopping 60.2. Last run I pushed even harder, and still didn't work the car very hard and got into the 59.7 range.

Plus I never did get the last left hander to the finish right, WAY to slow.

Overall it was fun, but somewhat disappointing. I need a LOT more seat time on R-comps, and more time on fast courses. And a lot more practice in general.

But I wasn't DFL.
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'02 Topaz M3
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  #47  
Old 06-02-2004, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ·clyde·
I'd have to figure out a way to fix the gears in place too, of course. I have no clue whether the cable and gears could transfer/apply enough force. I'm not an engineer and I've never played one on TV.
what your diagram doesn't show is that where the top of that "tower" bolted to the shock slides up through a tight fitting hole in a plate across the upper portion of the chassis' inner shock tower area, trapping the top of the shock in what appeared to be an enclosed chamber at the very top of the chassis tower, I'm not sure if there are any access holes in that upper chamber area to route the cable adjuster you're proposing
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  #48  
Old 06-02-2004, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamZ4
what your diagram doesn't show is that where the top of that "tower" bolted to the shock slides up through a tight fitting hole in a plate across the upper portion of the chassis' inner shock tower area, trapping the top of the shock in what appeared to be an enclosed chamber at the very top of the chassis tower, I'm not sure if there are any access holes in that upper chamber area to route the cable adjuster you're proposing
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  #49  
Old 06-02-2004, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ·clyde·

we'll just have to have another look this weekend
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Old 06-03-2004, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamZ4
we'll just have to have another look this weekend
I think so.
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