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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

View Poll Results: How much premium %?
Up to 5% 17 30.91%
Up to 10% 10 18.18%
Up to 20% 13 23.64%
Up to 30% 6 10.91%
Above 30% 9 16.36%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:46 PM
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bodonx bodonx is offline
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Thanks for the responses.

This is fun

I, myself, will admit that I'm a brand wh*re. I will pay up to 20% premium just for the status.

Having said that, I still put driving fun and design over status.
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  #27  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:18 PM
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None of the above, I never pay for status, only for perceived value in my own definition not some media whore's idea. Couple that with never paying retail and ALWAYS trying to squeeze the last possible cent out of a deal and how can one possibly go wrong?
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  #28  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:04 PM
mpress mpress is offline
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if honda and toyota started making cars the same a s bmw i would hope bmw steps it up to something better......

or

id hope audi finally makes a car i like more then bmw and id buy that...

I'm with stealth silly thread..
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  #29  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:48 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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The point remains. BMW can't sell you and has never made a car in the same league as one made by Toyota. No "unspoken" qualification needed. Not much has gone quicker around the Nurburgring than a stock LFA Nurburgring edition with its 7:14. No production road car from Ferrari or Lamborghini has come even remotely close.
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  #30  
Old 05-23-2012, 11:28 PM
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Ace535i Ace535i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The point remains. BMW can't sell you and has never made a car in the same league as one made by Toyota. No "unspoken" qualification needed. Not much has gone quicker around the Nurburgring than a stock LFA Nurburgring edition with its 7:14. No production road car from Ferrari or Lamborghini has come even remotely close.
Where would an Audi R8 fit into this picture?
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  #31  
Old 05-23-2012, 11:41 PM
Saberwalk Saberwalk is offline
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Originally Posted by Ace535i View Post
Where would an Audi R8 fit into this picture?
A black and grey one passed me on the GW Parkway last night, looks much much better in real life.
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  #32  
Old 05-23-2012, 11:50 PM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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No premium, but for the same price I would stick with the roundel, liking it better.
Rather silly threads these what ifs....

For what it is worth, a couple of years back, I did not buy an X5 mainly because it is US built.....
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  #33  
Old 05-24-2012, 03:46 AM
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Leslierc Leslierc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
For what it is worth, a couple of years back, I did not buy an X5 mainly because it is US built.....
So, you're saying that you would have bought it if the same factory and workers building the X5 were in Germany? The factory appears to be mostly automated from the videos I've seen. What causes the product to be unworthy if a foreign manufacturer chooses to move the factory building it to the U.S.?
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Last edited by Leslierc; 05-24-2012 at 04:15 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-24-2012, 04:07 AM
pukematrixx pukematrixx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The point remains. BMW can't sell you and has never made a car in the same league as one made by Toyota. No "unspoken" qualification needed. Not much has gone quicker around the Nurburgring than a stock LFA Nurburgring edition with its 7:14. No production road car from Ferrari or Lamborghini has come even remotely close.
That is true, the LFA is a beast on that track. But, the cost of those cars is absolutely outrageous for marginally better performance than a GTR or a 458. While it lapped Nurburgring faster than those two it doesn't beat those two in other metrics such as 0-60, and I believe the 1/4 mile but I can't remember the times off the top my head for the 1/4. The 2012 GTR 0-60 is ridiculous, 2.8 or something.

The LFA is a bad mother f'er no doubt, but for my money, I'd rather have both the 458 and the GTR than one LFA.

Damnit, I really need that 2012 GTR!
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  #35  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:09 AM
Smedley Butler Smedley Butler is offline
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Jeez, its a simple question, why all of the hostility. Either participate or don't, no need for all of the nasty comments. It is a hypothetical question and for me at least, it is not without merit.

Years ago, I had made what I considered an excellent deal on a new Volkswagon Phaeton. IMO at the time it was an excellent car for the money. At the last minute, I backed out (even walked away from a small deposit) because I couldn't shake the thought that "this just isn't a CEO's car". I ended up with an Audi. So, I paid more money for less of a car only due to my perceived status of a certain brand (or lack thereof).

Seems stupid in hindsight, lol.

The status does have a value to me, not sure what percent. There is a value to having the valet leave my car out front and like it or not, people make certain assumptions based on labels.
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  #36  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:18 AM
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DreamCar DreamCar is offline
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Guys be honest whats the big deal? dont give us that drive.. quality.... and blah blah crap.... Yes i give value to the brand along with drive and quality ....Atleast i am honest about it...

Last edited by DreamCar; 05-24-2012 at 07:22 AM.
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  #37  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamCar View Post
Guys be honest whats the big deal? dont give us that drive.. quality.... and blah blah crap.... Yes i give value to the brand along with drive and quality ....Atleast i am honest about it...
+1
I think the question to test how honest we are. Everyone understands the simple question. The answer should be yes or no with X%.

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  #38  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:30 AM
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I believe it all depends who is being asked that question. Don't forget that the answer already exists out there and it is about 10-15%. That's roughly the price difference between similarly equipped Lexus and Infiniti cars vs BMW. For people buying them, they are the same cars except that they get "more car for less money". What is important to those people costs extra in BMW and is usually there by default in Lexus or Infiniti.

Try to ask a musician how much would a brand A guitar be worth if it were identical to his guitar. There's no answer because, as someone said above, no two guitars are the same to a musician. On the other end of the spectrum, they are not just the same, but identical, to 99.5% of other people. Heck, my wife can't tell the difference between the Les Paul and a Strat, let alone something custom that might have similar shape to the two standard models.

So, for a car guy, the question is meaningless. For the other people, you already have the answer as I mentioned at the beginning.
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  #39  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:08 PM
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Though I wouldn't use the word "asinine," I agree that the question is asinine.

If Honda or Yugo or Tata were to build a BMW F10 that is equivalent in every 'practical' way, then it reduces the industry to a commodity market in which price and availability are the only differentiators. There are lots of commodity markets (computer memory chips, various types of raw foods, electricity, water, etc.).

Most other markets compete on the basis of product differentiation.

Having said this, it is always possible for Honda or Yugo or Tata to build cars that are just as good or better than the F10. In that case buyers may pay the same high prices, just as Lexus today is able to command higher prices. When Lexus debuted, they produced high quality automobiles that undercut the Germans in price. Today, one can argue that the high-end Hyundai models are following the same business model.

But Honda and everyone will not build "identical" cars because, unlike the commodity markets, there are many many ways to differentiate their products. And so differentiation will be the dominant theme -- which means the products will continue to be different.

As for the thought experiment (I'm all in favor of thought experiments along the lines of Einstein's 'gedanken'), if there were two F10s, one wearing a Honda badge and made by Honda, the other wearing a BMW badge and made by BMW, then:

Would I buy the original at a higher price, assuming that the copy made by Honda is cheaper? I would consider various factors, but would very likely be swayed by price.

How much cheaper would the Honda have to be? Given that Honda has a reputation for reliability, I would say that the decision to buy the Honda badge or the BMW badge would be mostly a toss-up for me.
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  #40  
Old 05-24-2012, 01:08 PM
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duplicate
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  #41  
Old 05-24-2012, 04:03 PM
Stonehauler Stonehauler is offline
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Having owned a Toyota, a Ford, a Pontiac, a GMC, a Lexus, and a BMW, I would say...absolutely 0 premium....if everything was exactly the same. Same workmanship, materials, attention to detail, etc.

The problem is, none of these manufacturers make exactly the same product, and that is why we have so many types of cars out there. If one size fit all, we would all still be driving a Model T, because that is all we would have needed. (going to the extreme of one size fits all)

Lexus makes a high quality, very reliable car, but honestly, the GS is not quite as fun to drive as the BMW. Heck, the new GS isn't as fun to drive as my 04-GS430.

That said, it is ultimately subjective why we buy the cars we do.

Some put an absolute premium on reliability and nothing else matters. For them, a Honda or a Toyota would do. For others, it has to be an American car company, or a particular brand (say..BMW?) or a status symbol. For some, fuel efficiency, still others want brute hauling/towing capacity, others want a small RWD car, others a larger RWD car, or a cheap no frills car, or a luxury car...the list goes on

Ultimately, it is these choices that bring us to the cars we choose from. For me, my choices are:
Full sized vehicle, Comfortable seats I can sit in 12 hours a day or more (subjective), RWD, Powerful Engine (everyone has a different defination of powerful), Fun to drive (subjective), solid craftsmanship (again, everyone has a different bar), ok or better gas milage (again, different people have different threshholds), has good long term reliability, and is something I believe I will enjoy driving the next 10 years and not make me wonder why I traded in my current fun to drive vehicle.

When I got my Lexus, I was this || close to buying an M3...instead, I decided that I wanted something I could drive comfortably everyday 100 miles a day plus have a little more room on the inside, in the trunk, etc. Ultimately, the GS430 was the best compromise on what I wanted at that point in time.

If Ford, GM, Toyota, BMW, etc sold the exact same cars with the same features, I would not put a premium on the brand at all. In fact, this is why I would not consider a Lincoln...they have no unique cars, just rebadged Fords...

If I had to choose between a Camry and a Lexus ES, I would get the Camry...same as I would get the Taurus or Fusion over their Lincoln counterparts.

Interesting Poll, ultimately, everyone has their own reasons for buying the car they do, and I am glad that we have the choices available to us...so that we can find a car that fits what we as individuals want.

Last edited by Stonehauler; 05-24-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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  #42  
Old 05-24-2012, 04:17 PM
elitex elitex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frowningdeity View Post
To OP:

No one will give you an honest answer, they will always come up with some magical quality of BMW that other brands "will never replicate" thus invalidating the equivalent car thought experiment. Really, that magical quality IS the prestige of the status symbol which no one seems to want to admit to preferring.

I love the poster above who claims to be able to tell the difference between cars BLINDFOLDED. What a beautifully ridiculous and unfalsifiable claim that is. Bravo, sir.

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Seriously? Offcourse brand matters, but there are huge differences between brands.
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  #43  
Old 05-24-2012, 04:31 PM
Stonehauler Stonehauler is offline
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That's the point...if there WERE no differences between brands, would brands matter.? Would you pay a premium if the only difference was the BMW name....and nothing else.
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  #44  
Old 05-24-2012, 05:24 PM
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Elias Elias is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Toyota has already built a car in the LFA which crushes anything BMW has ever built.
Over the years your responses always have an underlining negativity towards BMW your starting to make me wonder why you bother to come here!
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  #45  
Old 05-24-2012, 06:24 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Have only owned Honda's or BMWs for decades. Honda's are better made than BMWs. Would definitely buy a Honda over a BMW if the cars were identical. Unfortunaltely, Honda does not make any cars similar to BMWS. My wife and my stepson both drive Honda's. My son and daughter both drive Honda's. If Honda or Acura made an identical car to my 550i xDrive I would drive the Honda or Acura. Honda's are amazingly well made cars. I had my first Honda, a CVCC Civic, in 1978. Up until that time it was definitely the best made car I had ever owned. I kept it for nine years. My wife's Honda is 13 years old and is like new. It's a V6 Accord and she refuses to replace it.

I drove only Honda's until 1992. I have had five V8 BMWs since 1992 when I got the first 740i. BMWs are very reliable and well made, but not as good as Honda's.

I don't drive a BMW because of the prestige. I drive it because it is the best driving car for the money.
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  #46  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:21 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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I'm amazed at how many people refuse to comprehend what the question was and give a direct answer to it. I will give an answer. It would probably be worth about 5% to me. I have moved backwards more than once in my life of buying many, many vehicles (on number 58 I think now). I have no real problem doing so. On the other hand, I'm a HUUUUUGE car nut, so I can honestly say I would pay a little more because it means something to me to be known as the local car nut and what I drive reinforces that message.
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  #47  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:33 PM
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If there was some guy in Japan named Suzuki that painted an exact spec Mona Lisa, I would still want the one from Italy by that other dude. Plus "Honda 535i" doesn't roll off the tongue as well.
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  #48  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:12 PM
nhs156 nhs156 is offline
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I understand the question and the motivation behind it. Ultimately, any answer given won't provide your friend with the hoped-for insight, as it's essentially a hopeless hypothetical question. When people buy BMW, they're not buying "just the brand" or "roundel". They're buying all the things that the roundel has come to represent - such as pedigree, sporty design, fit/finish, performance, quality of dealer network etc. If the Japs performed equally on these same fronts - i.e. the buying factors encapsulated in the brand and individual models - their cars would be priced the same and no-one would have any reason whatsoever to pay a premium.

Reality is very different, of course. The brands/models are vastly different, and that explains the premium pricing for BMW. We're paying for the value we're receiving, and that value is higher (in our mind) than if we were to substitute our cars for Hondas, which is why we pay more.
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  #49  
Old 05-25-2012, 04:53 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by nhs156 View Post
I understand the question and the motivation behind it. Ultimately, any answer given won't provide your friend with the hoped-for insight, as it's essentially a hopeless hypothetical question. When people buy BMW, they're not buying "just the brand" or "roundel". They're buying all the things that the roundel has come to represent - such as pedigree, sporty design, fit/finish, performance, quality of dealer network etc. If the Japs performed equally on these same fronts - i.e. the buying factors encapsulated in the brand and individual models - their cars would be priced the same and no-one would have any reason whatsoever to pay a premium.

Reality is very different, of course. The brands/models are vastly different, and that explains the premium pricing for BMW. We're paying for the value we're receiving, and that value is higher (in our mind) than if we were to substitute our cars for Hondas, which is why we pay more.
Another dodge of the question. He said if all those things were the same (except pedigree which is meaningless if those things are all the same.
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  #50  
Old 05-25-2012, 04:56 AM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Over the years your responses always have an underlining negativity towards BMW your starting to make me wonder why you bother to come here!
Well swajames is correct about the LFA. BMW unlike Lexus refuses to make a super car.

At more pedestrian pricing levels, the new GS350 has done very well in reviews comparing it to the 535. I of course opted for the 550xi M Sport with Dinan Stage 2, which the new GS can't touch. But my car is much much more powerful than a 535.

Swajames does not hate BMWs. He is just not a fanboy.
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