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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 06-07-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
Pretty positive it is original...
I would agree as everything else in this car has always been original when I replaced it.

One thing I'm confused about is how the vent tube is designed. Does the vent tube 'only' go to the outer ring of the bottom of the dipstick guide tube? If so, how (mechanically) is that done? (i.e., what does a cross section of that portion of the dipstick guide tube actually look like?)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
IMO, in your case, you should just get the Cold-weather version oil dipstick tube
I wonder if the ($117 + tax) "updated" dipstick guide tube at the dealer is the same as the ($130 + shipping) "cold weather" one from ECS?

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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-07-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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  #27  
Old 06-07-2012, 10:12 AM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post

I would agree as everything else in this car has always been original when I replaced it.

One thing I'm confused about is how the vent tube is designed.

Does the vent tube 'only' go to the outer ring of the bottom of the dipstick guide tube?

If so, how (mechanically) is that done? (i.e., what does a cross section of that portion of the dipstick guide tube actually look like?)


I wonder if the ($117 + tax) "updated" dipstick guide tube at the dealer is the same as the ($130 + shipping) "cold weather" one from ECS?
1. I do not have a cross section of the tube, however, I think the smaller side tube from the CCV drains/ connects to the smaller/ thinner weep along the out sides of the main dipstick tube base.

The weeps are a weird trapezoid shape.

A grain of sand can easily plug one of those weeps.


2. What is the part number of the updated dipstick tube a the dealer?
Compare part numbers.


Read O2Pilot's post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02Pilot View Post
I have some doubts regarding that dipstick guide tube modification. Specifically, unless the hole it drilled through both walls of the inner tube, it is still possible for the flow from the return to be blocked by debris. Even so, it is a less than optimal solution IMHO, as there remains a fairly small opening that could be obstructed by build-up.

I removed the inner tube entirely from mine. It is a major hassle involving multiple cuts and welding. Basically, the inner tube is an extension of the upper tube; the outer tube is brazed on just above the drain, and again at the hole just below the o-ring flange. You have to cut in these two places, then weld it all back together. Based on what I saw between the two tubes when I cut it apart - after I had already manually and chemically cleaned it as much as possible - I would not consider anything short of complete removal of the inner tube adequate to ensure proper drainage over the long term. That said, modification to achieve this is a major undertaking unless you are good at metal fabrication. Just buy the updated part and be done with it.
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Last edited by Jason5driver; 06-07-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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  #28  
Old 06-07-2012, 01:09 PM
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johnstern johnstern is offline
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Bluebee-the one hole in the dip stick tube is stock and means your dip stick tube is original-it is not the cold weather version. The cold weather version has NO double layer construction-the oil flow from the CVV goes directly to the center of the tube.

After reading Janson's thread and discussing the matter with Janson and 16valex I set about modifying my dip stick tube. I decided not to weld up the holes in the outside skin as IMO it did not matter which way the oil ran back to the sump.

Here are a bunch of pictures of me drilling and filing the outisde and inside of the tube to eliminate the rough edges. I also used a pick to loosen filings between the layers of the tube and then a vacuum cleaner and compressed air to clean those filings from the tube. I figured that any filings left would be caught by the oil pump screen and would get flushed out in future oil changes. Please note that I drilled 3 sets of holes. I drilled the holes in the places where the double layer passages were the widest.

These holes really eliminate the double layer design of the tube.

Thanks Jason and Alex for your help. This was really an easy mod-took about 1/2 hour. Yes, I did paint the rust spot you can see on my dip stick tube. Lol

One other thing I noticed about gunk/mayo building up in the CVV system-it is a result of too many short trips without the whole engine coming to full operating temperature. My system was filled with the stuff but one round trip at highway speeds to NYC (300 miles each way) and the system was completely clear. I don't think you have to drive 600 miles to clear the system but some miles at full operating temps, whether on the highway or not, should melt the gunk.
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Last edited by johnstern; 06-07-2012 at 01:22 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-07-2012, 08:07 PM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
A grain of sand can easily plug one of those weeps.
I agree. One single grain of sand would block the thin distance between the two tubes at the bottom. It must be something like 1/32" or 1/64" spacing between the two tubes!

BTW, today I took a look at 'speedometer' cable at the parts store and concluded instantly it is absolutely huge compared to the size of the tube-within-a-tube spacing (no way would the speedometer cable I saw come even close to fitting in the concentric ring spacing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
some miles at full operating temps, whether on the highway or not, should melt the gunk
Given how rock solid my 'gunk' was in the space between each of the two tubes, I highly doubt 'mine' would have been unclogged with mere heat. It took sheer mechanical twisting force to drill through the packed-sand gunk in my dipstick tube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
One hole in the dip stick tube is stock and means your dip stick tube is original
Thanks. That clue makes it easy to identify a stock dipstick guide tube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
The cold weather version has NO double layer construction-the oil flow from the CVV goes directly to the center of the tube.
Does this diagram get closer to representing the old and new dipstick guide tube construction?


Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
I decided not to weld up the holes in the outside skin as IMO it did not matter which way the oil ran back to the sump.
Is the entire "tank" below the o-ring seating spot just a big oil tank? If so, the holes shouldn't matter, right?

Why did BMW design the concentricity in the first place then?
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__________________
Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need

Last edited by bluebee; 06-10-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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  #30  
Old 06-08-2012, 06:37 AM
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Fudman Fudman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post

Does this diagram get closer to representing the old and new dipstick guide tube construction?




Is the entire "tank" below the o-ring seating spot just a big oil tank? If so, the holes shouldn't matter, right?

Why did BMW design the concentricity in the first place then?

I believe your diagram is correct. If you look at the Real.OEM diagram, yes, the "tank" (oil sump) is just a container for the oil. And yes, the holes should not really matter. I believe a more effective solution would be to cut the outer section of piping (the portion that johnstern drilled into) below the connection interface to the oil sump. That would eliminate the risk of drilling debris from clogging the pathway. It would also increase the "area" for the CCV drainage to flow through, below the connection interface. However, it would not correct the limited flow through cross sectional area that still exists
at the connection interface. Hence, the improved dipstick tube is the best solution, especially for those in cold weather areas that drive short distances on cold engines.

For the $130 price, it is well worth NOT having to redo a CCV replacement ( a HUGE PITA). I did mine 2.5 years ago and may need to redo this again. This time I will buy the new dipstick.
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  #31  
Old 06-08-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
I believe your diagram is correct. If you look at the Real.OEM diagram, yes, the "tank" (oil sump) is just a container for the oil. And yes, the holes should not really matter. I believe a more effective solution would be to cut the outer section of piping (the portion that johnstern drilled into) below the connection interface to the oil sump. That would eliminate the risk of drilling debris from clogging the pathway. It would also increase the "area" for the CCV drainage to flow through, below the connection interface. However, it would not correct the limited flow through cross sectional area that still exists
at the connection interface. Hence, the improved dipstick tube is the best solution, especially for those in cold weather areas that drive short distances on cold engines.

For the $130 price, it is well worth NOT having to redo a CCV replacement ( a HUGE PITA). I did mine 2.5 years ago and may need to redo this again. This time I will buy the new dipstick.
+1

Thanks Fudman for answering Bluebee's questions. I have not been able to get back to this forum until now.

Please note that I drilled the holes through the outer AND inner layers of the dipstick tube.
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  #32  
Old 06-08-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
I believe your diagram is correct.

If you look at the Real.OEM diagram, yes, the "tank" (oil sump) is just a container for the oil.
And yes, the holes should not really matter.
I believe a more effective solution would be to cut the outer section of piping (the portion that Johnstern drilled into) below the connection interface to the oil sump.

That would eliminate the risk of drilling debris from clogging the pathway.
It would also increase the "area" for the CCV drainage to flow through, below the connection interface.
However, it would not correct the limited flow through cross sectional area that still exists
at the connection interface.
Hence, the improved dipstick tube is the best solution, especially for those in cold weather areas that drive short distances on cold engines.

+1.
I agree.
By drilling out, or removing that inner tubing at the dipstick tube base, you are essentially creating the cold-weather oil dipstick tube.

I think there is a problem where the small tube connects to the oil dipstick tube base.

If you can drill-out the inner tubing, and provide a clear path for the small tube to drain, then I think you are set...

For the $130 price, it is well worth NOT having to redo a CCV replacement ( a HUGE PITA).
I did mine 2.5 years ago and may need to redo this again.
This time I will buy the new dipstick.




Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
+1

Thanks Fudman for answering Bluebee's questions.
I have not been able to get back to this forum until now.

Please note that I drilled the holes through the outer AND inner layers of the dipstick tube.
Interesting...
Was it hard drilling-out the inner tubing?
Pictures?

Thanks!
Jason
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  #33  
Old 06-08-2012, 08:47 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
I drilled the holes through the outer AND inner layers of the dipstick tube.
I had wondered about that, even after having looked at the very nice picture set.

For each hole, did you drill straight through all (4) layers of steel?
Or did you just drill the outer (2) layers of steel on each drill pass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
I believe your diagram is correct.
Thanks. The only thing I can 'think' of then as to 'why' BMW designed the concentric tubes in the first place, is that (perhaps) they didn't want the oil gunk condensing from the CCV vent to deposit uglies on the dipstick itself. That would 'look' bad when the dipstick is pulled out for inspection.

I can't think of any other reason for the expensive and problematic concentric tubes, other than to keep condensed oil away from the dipstick itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
the "tank" (oil sump) is just a container for the oil. And yes, the holes should not really matter.
Thanks. I realize these answers may be obvious to you, but I'm struggling with the 'why' of the concentric-tube design. It baffles me why they went to a huge expense to design a tube within a tube just so that the dipstick wouldn't get oil on it. I'm looking for the 'catch' in the redesigns ... the thing we may have missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
cut the outer section of piping
This makes sense. Eliminate the entire outer tube, if possible, at least where it can be eliminated and still have a mechanical fit.

I wonder if we can simply grind (or cut) the outer tube entirely away (leaving only portions needed for mechanical integrity & for the tight fit into the oil tank hole).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
it would not correct the limited flow through cross sectional area that still exists at the connection interface.
Understood. In fact, that little-tube-to-big-tube connection was jammed solid for me (right at the curve where the steel ccv vent connects to the steel outer dipstick guide tube) when I tried digging down from the ccv vent side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
the improved dipstick tube is the best solution
What I absolutely hate is giving a $130 (times hundreds of thousands of BMWs) to the very same people who designed the abomination in the first place. It's rewarding BMW for failure. For example, I'd prefer to buy a Toyota dipstick guide tube (were it a fit) over a BMW-supplied "improved" dipstick guide tube ... just on principle (if it worked).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudman View Post
I did mine 2.5 years ago and may need to redo this again
Since mine is not redesigned nor modified ... how long would you think I have before mine becomes clogged?

Since nobody probably has that data (depends on weather & driving style) ... may I ask whether the standard CCV tests can determine if your dipstick is clogged?

Since mine was clogged and I didn't know it, I'm sure thousands of others are clogged.

Q: What's the best (easiest) TEST of a clogged dipstick guide CCV vent tube?


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Each repair should invariably add to our knowledge base by the process of inexorable incrementalism.
Your job, in return, is to read the suggested threads, where the best people will always add value to those threads, either by pictures or by descriptions, so the next person with the same problem stands on your shoulders.
See also: E39 Bestlinks & How to easily find what you need

Last edited by bluebee; 06-08-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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  #34  
Old 06-08-2012, 09:42 AM
mjbennett9 mjbennett9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Cleaned out my ICV today and decided to check the oil dipstick since it was staring at me once I removed everything on top of it.

I'd love some quick advice on the following two questions before I put it all back together ...

Q1. The side tube that goes to the CCV is totally clogged in both directions. I checked the CCV thread which shows they redesigned the dipstick to eliminate the troublesome concentric tubes. But it's over a hundred seventeen bucks for a new dipstick guide. Should I just clean mine out? How?

Q2. I lost the o-ring while blowing garden hose water on the dipstick; do you think the exact right size matters? BMW has the o-ring in stock ($3.83) but I'd have to button it up to get there. I can fit a garden hose washer on for now. Do you think that will work temporarily?

Hello BB.

(1) My CCV "journey" was a false one. What I thought was symptoms of a CCV was actually a cracked Valve cover. However, I did end up replacing my CCV and ran into the dipstick. But mine was not clogged. I did clean it out just in case. I used a coat hanger, and little pieces of cut up rags (soaked in Brake cleaner).
I did contemplate replacing the dipstick, but at that cost, no way. :-)

(2) While I did not think of a garden hose washer, I do think it would work, or use none at all. The garden hose washer is probably thicker, but it won't make a difference. There is a connection held tight by the 10mm bolt. Could drive a block and easily check for leaks with a flashlight. Alternately, pay overnight shipping and get one delivered. Probably $20 or $25 for the part with shipping.

*Note. Many are asking about the standard CCV test (vacuum). However, in a case like mine, I still had vacuum, my issue turned out to be a cracked valve cover (still had plenty of vacuum too). Once replaced, no oil leak/smell, and car ran better--I'm guessing from no vacuum loss.

Last edited by mjbennett9; 06-08-2012 at 09:45 AM.
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  #35  
Old 06-08-2012, 09:54 AM
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Jason5driver Jason5driver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I had wondered about that, even after having looked at the very nice picture set.

For each hole, did you drill straight through all (4) layers of steel?
Or did you just drill the outer (2) layers of steel on each drill pass?

Thanks. The only thing I can 'think' of then as to 'why' BMW designed the concentric tubes in the first place, is that (perhaps) they didn't want the oil gunk condensing from the CCV vent to deposit uglies on the dipstick itself. That would 'look' bad when the dipstick is pulled out for inspection.

I can't think of any other reason for the expensive and problematic concentric tubes, other than to keep condensed oil away from the dipstick itself.


Thanks. I realize these answers may be obvious to you, but I'm struggling with the 'why' of the concentric-tube design.
It baffles me why they went to a huge expense to design a tube within a tube just so that the dipstick wouldn't get oil on it.
I'm looking for the 'catch' in the redesigns ... the thing we may have missed.

This makes sense.
Eliminate the entire outer tube, if possible, at least where it can be eliminated and still have a mechanical fit.

I wonder if we can simply grind (or cut) the outer tube entirely away (leaving only portions needed for mechanical integrity & for the tight fit into the oil tank hole).

Understood.
In fact, that little-tube-to-big-tube connection was jammed solid for me (right at the curve where the steel ccv vent connects to the steel outer dipstick guide tube) when I tried digging down from the ccv vent side.

What I absolutely hate is giving a $130 (times hundreds of thousands of BMWs) to the very same people who designed the abomination in the first place. It's rewarding BMW for failure. For example, I'd prefer to buy a Toyota dipstick guide tube (were it a fit) over a BMW-supplied "improved" dipstick guide tube ... just on principle (if it worked).

Since mine is not redesigned nor modified...
How long would you think I have before mine becomes clogged?

Since nobody probably has that data (depends on weather & driving style) ...
May I ask whether the standard CCV tests can determine if your dipstick is clogged?

Since mine was clogged and I didn't know it, I'm sure thousands of others are clogged.

Q: What's the best (easiest) TEST of a clogged dipstick guide CCV vent tube?
1. I think you are completely correct (see bold above) about BMW trying route the condensed oil along the outer tube, to keep that oil/ moisture-water/ yellow gunked oil AWAY from the dipstick itself.

However, by running water filled oil along to outside perimeter of the oil dipstick tube, you run the risk of freezing, thus, creating a clog...

Ever wonder why you hear more about CCV failures in the winter time....?
Hint-hint....

2. If you have a clog at the small CCV tube-to-dipstick-tube-base intersection, you might try heat/ propane to loosen things up...
This is the reason why my mechanic came up with the solution to drilling out that connection completely, to insure the CCV will be able to drain.

3. It is not whether you think your oil dipstick tube is clogged, but how to keep it from clogging-ever (permanent solution).

4. I agree that it is extremely wrong for BMW to rake in money/ sucker people with their defective design.

5. The easiest way to see if the oil dipstick tube is clogged is to completely remove it, inspect it, try blowing compressed air through it, try draining cleaner through it, etc....
However, like I posted, it is best to make a permanent fix first, that way you do not need to constant check on the d@mn thing, just waiting for it to break/ cause problems.

Thanks!
Jason
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Last edited by Jason5driver; 06-08-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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  #36  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:25 AM
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Bluebee-I drilled only 2 layers at a time. With hindsight, I probably could have drilled through all 4 layers at once. I was concerned with retaining the strength of the tube so wanted to stagger the holes. I think more holes is better than less. BTW I used a 3/16 drill bit.

I agree with you absolutely about BMW ripping us off with their "new" dipstick tube. I can't fathom why they would build a double tube dipstick and charge in the $40-$50 range and then build a simpler, one tube dipstick and charge 3 times as much.

You can keep your double walled dipstick from getting clogged by driving your car for longer periods once in a while. It takes a long time for all the engine oil to get up to full temp-maybe 15-20 minutes. So a 1/2 hour run would do that and then the dipstick would be in a nice hot bath which would cook the water out of the sludge and let the oil return to the sump as oil.

Jason-there are pics in post # 28 above. The drilling was easy-took about 1/2 hour from beginning to end. Also I have finally understand exactly what your mechanic did and why he had to weld up the outside hole-he drilled above where the dippstick goes into the sump, right opposite where the CVV drain tube joins the dipstick-right? I guess I may have to make more mods in the future.

Last edited by johnstern; 06-08-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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  #37  
Old 06-08-2012, 12:41 PM
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doru doru is offline
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I'm afraid that in winter under extreme low temperatures, the orange return from Blue's sketch will clog regardless if it's old or new design (I have my hunches). The ID of the return is extremely small, and the mayo that flows down that path is thick freezing instantly. What happens if the return is frozen?

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  #38  
Old 06-08-2012, 03:40 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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I remember reading that some people were having trouble with the dipstick hanging up on the new dipstick tube. My guess is that the inner tube is there just to guide the dipstick.
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  #39  
Old 06-09-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
My guess is that the inner tube is there just to guide the dipstick.
It looks like the outer tube doesn't actually do much so one solution is to remove it entirely.

Searching for how to test for a clogged CCV vent tube we need to know how it works.
This is perhaps the best description out there ... but it doesn't 'specifically' cover a clogged steel vent tube:
- E39 (1997 - 2003) > Cute little trick to diagnose blocked CCV system...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
Whether the diaphram port is open or closed depends on vacuum in the CCV , not inlet manifold vacuum.

1 When the engine is started the CCV valve chamber is at atmospheric pressure, no vacuum.
2 The spring is pushing the diaphram away from the center port that is connected to the inlet manifold. So, there is an open passage from the crankcase, through the CCV to the inlet manifold.
3 The open passage allows manifold vacuum (engine now running) to suck air & blowby gases from the swirl chamber through the center port, eventually creating a vacuum inside the regulating valve chamber (and crankcase too, of course)
4 Now the diaphram will be pushed against the spring by atmospheric (higher) pressure on the other side of the diaphram. As the vacuum increases, the diaphram moves closer & closer to the port connected to the inlet manifold.
5 Eventually the diaphram compresses the spring enough that it touches the vacuum port and seals it off. This stops the inlet manifold from sucking any more from the swirl chamber. For an instant the vacuum on the swirl chamber is constant.
6 Next, blowby getting past the piston rings enters the swirl chamber & moves up into the regulating valve chamber which reduces the vacuum.
7 With reduced vacuum, the spring is able to move the diaphram and open the vacuum port to the inlet manifold again
8 Vaccum inside the chamber is again sucked down - around & around it goes.

So the vacuum in the CCV, and crankcase, is generated by inlet manifold vacuum and controlled by the CCV regulating valve. As long as the CCV is operating correctly, inlet manifold vacuum will always be greater than CCV/crankcase vacuum.

The size (diameter) of the diaphram, its flexibility/stiffness, strength of the spring and the relative position of diaphram & center port are worked out by the designer so that diaphram is just touching, i.e. closing off, the center port at a vacuum of 10 to 15 millibar (4 to 6 inches water column) in the CCV.
...
Manifold vacuum and crankcase vacuum, or pressure, are applied to the same side of the diaphram. Except of course, manifold vacuum is blocked off when the diaphram moves far enough against the spring to touch the port connected to the inlet manifold. The port from the swirl chamber (crankcase) is never blocked. The diaphram isn't molded in a special shape to block off both ports. The flat center of the diaphram moves to touch or not touch (block or open) only the port in the center of the the regulator chamber which is connected to the inlet manifold.

This is the crucial point; crankcase vacuum (or pressure) is always present. Inlet manifold vacuum is "switched" on & off by the diaphram to control crankcase vacuum at 10 - 15 millibar.

Perhaps it will help to point out that when the diaphram opens the manifold vacuum port, crankcase vacuum does not instantaneously go to to full manifold vacuum. Rather it begins reducing crankcase pressure (increasing vacuum) as blowby gases are sucked into the inlet manifold. As crankcase vacuum approaches 10 - 15 millibar, the diaphram blocks the manifold port again, limiting crankcase vacuum.

So, the vacuum at which the diaphram closes off the inlet manifold port (i.e. center) is crankcase vacuum. See this thread for measurement methods
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...95#post5989795
Posts 7 & 8 suggest specific methods to measure this vacuum (or heaven forbid, pressure.)
Q: Given most of the test procedures out there are for testing the CCV itself, what specific test procedure would find a clogged steel vent tube (w/o removing the tube)?
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-09-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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  #40  
Old 06-09-2012, 11:09 AM
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I would get under the car, pull off the CVV drain hose off the dipstick and observe what's going on inside the tube with a flashlight and a mirror. You could also insert a wire, small screw driver, etc. into the steel tube & see what you find (obstruction, mayo, nothing???)
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstern View Post
I would get under the car
Good point that we'd have to test from 'under' the vehicle.

I just came back from testing 'above' the vehicle to report that the suction tests revealed a surprisingly strong suction at the oil filler opening and a surprisingly weak suction at the dipstick opening ...



Yet I also hear a disconcerting gurgling slurpee sound when I put my ear within a few inches of the dipstick guide tube opening at top with the dipstick removed.

Should this low volume (but noticeable when my ear is near the dipstick opening) gurgling slurpee sound diagnostically mean anything to me (i.e., does it mean a bad CCV)?
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-10-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:26 PM
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Here is a video of the faint, but clear, gurgling noise at the opening of the oil dipstick guide tube.
It's easier to hear the slurpee sound with your ears than with the video because of the background engine clatter.



Today [EDIT: with the engine off] I removed the upper vent pipe and blew on it, both directly and with a 1/2 inch OD hose (with some tape wrapped around the end for a tight fit). There was absolutely no resistance, and certainly absolutely no bubbling. (Did I do something wrong?) [EDIT: see Steve's response below - the engine should have been on].

To doublecheck, I put a hose on the dipstick guide tube and certainly heard bubbling when I blew on that hose directly into the dipstick guide tube [EDIT: with engine off]

I 'thought' my two possible results, when blowing on the upper CCV "vent pipe", were:
a) Infinite resistance (indicating a clogged steel vent tube or dipstick guide tube)
b) Bubbling of air into the oil sump (indicating a clear unclogged dipstick guide tube).

I did not expect:
c) No resistance whatsoever.

Did I do the suggested test wrong? [EDIT: yes]

------------------------- ------------------------- -------------------------

------------------------- ------------------------- -------------------------

------------------------- ------------------------- -------------------------

------------------------- ------------------------- -------------------------
Since I had expected bubbles (and not zero resistance) when blowing back into the upper vent pipe connection ... may I ask if I did the test wrong? [EDIT: Yes. See Steve's response below; the engine should have been running.]
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-11-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2012, 06:56 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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I assume the engine was not running when you blew into the vent hose. Since there is no manifold vacuum to close the diaphragm, the air you blew into the vent hose went into the intake manifold.

If you were to remove and plug the hoses that connect the CCV to the manifold, you might be able to blow enough air into the vent hose to create the bubbling.

If your purpose is to identify a clogged dipstick guide tube, it would be easier and more direct to remove the CCV drain tube, connect a hose to the dipstick tube and blow through that hose.
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  #44  
Old 06-10-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
the air you blew into the vent hose went into the intake manifold.
Oh. < sheepish look of embarrassment >

I was following someone's advice ... and they didn't mention the engine running. Silly me. I didn't realize.

There must be three conditions:
- No vacuum (engine off) ==> Spring pushes diaphragm, upper port open --> blowing goes into intake manifold
- High vacuum (engine idling) ==> Vacuum pulls diaphragm, upper port closed --> blowing goes into oil sump
- Low vacuum (acceleration) ==> Spring pushes diaphragm, upper port open --> blowing goes into intake manifold

I wonder if we can use this test as a diagnostic for identifying a torn diaphragm in situ?

Anyway, to find out if I can 'hear' the bubbling of air into oil over the engine noise, I'll try anew (this time with the engine running and a hose to keep my face & hair away from the whirling fan); but it's going to be hard to hear the bubbling with the engine running ... so this suggested test may be moot (unless it's useful to test for a torn diaphragm).

What do you think would happen if the diaphragm were torn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
remove the CCV drain tube ... and blow through that hose.
Wow! I didn't think of that - but - that's the BEST suggestion so far (i.e., easiest) so far for testing for a clogged dipstick guide tube!

I think EVERYONE with an original CCV (even those in warm weather climes) should run that simple test!

To help them, we should identify the ID of the jumper hose that they'll need to slip onto the lower elbow of the steel dipstick guide tube. (I can measure my old hose and report back.)

EDIT: Measuring with my caliper (yes, I know, overkill), I get 0.430 inches ID, which is about 11 mm or 7/16 inch inside diameter of the original rubber lower CCV vent hose drain opening where it connects to the steel dipstick guide tube offshoot finger.

Given that, I would like to ask the NEXT person who wants to test this to connect a few feet of 1/2 inch ID stock rubber hose to the drain vent on the dipstick guide tube and to blow to see if that indicates a clogged drain vent tube BEFORE removing the tube from the vehicle, like I did.
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-10-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2012, 08:32 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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If the diaphragm is torn, it will not seal of the port to hose that attaches to the manifold, so the CCV and the vent hose would be at manifold vacuum.
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  #46  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
If the diaphragm is torn...the CCV and the vent hose would be at manifold vacuum.
Oddly, when I tried again, with the engine running and slight smoke coming out of the now open manifold, at idle, low speed, and high speed engine revs, there was still ZERO resistance blowing into the oil dipstick guide tube with a hose.

Q: What does 'that' tell me about the CCV diaphragm?

Anyway, while I was there, I decided to test the vacuum at the oil dipstick, which turned out to be just under 8 inches.

Here's my DIY based on RDL's explanation over here.


#1: I bought 7 feet of 3/4" OD x 5/8" ID vinyl hose.

#2: I slipped one end over the oil dipstick guide tube.

#3: Making a loop, I filled it with about a foot and a half of water.
Note: Less water bounced around too much with the engine running.

#4: Starting the engine, I measured the water delta to be roughly just under 8 inches:
EDIT: I need to test again, trying to keep the lines parallel to each other and perpendicular to the ground.

Here's a picture of the final setup in my carpeted garage last night.


So, may I ask:
Q: What does 8 inches of water at relatively cold idle tell me about the condition of the engine?
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-11-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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  #47  
Old 06-11-2012, 12:18 AM
V_323 V_323 is offline
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8 inches of water is converts to 19 milliBar with the BMW spec being 10-15 mBar so you have a little too much crankcase vacuum.
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  #48  
Old 06-11-2012, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V_323 View Post
8 inches of water is converts to 19 milliBar with the BMW spec being 10-15 mBar so you have a little too much crankcase vacuum.
I see that 1 inch of water is about 2.5 mBar, so at most it's off by less than an inch, which still puts it at about 17.5 mBar.

I'm confused what it means, diagnostically, to have 'too much vacuum'.

What causes that? How do you fix it?

Note: I wonder if the large reading is an artifact of the large loop of my water manometer?
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-11-2012 at 09:05 AM.
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  #49  
Old 06-11-2012, 03:42 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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I don't think the large loop affected your readings. But to be sure, you might want to check the vacuum again with the bottom of the manometer formed into a U. Or you could add more water so that the lowest level does not drop to the place where the loop. Also, I think the manometer should be plumb so that the distance you measure is the actual difference in heights of the water columns.

The CCV regulating valve controls the intake manifold vacuum applied to the crankcase, so a higher than normal vacuum in the crankcase would mean that the regulating valve is allowing too much vacuum to be applied to the crankcase. That might be caused by a diaphragm that is not closing off the vacuum port to the intake manifold hoses.
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  #50  
Old 06-11-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
That might be caused by a diaphragm that is not closing off the vacuum port to the intake manifold hoses.
Very interesting analysis!

So, do BOTH suggested tests indicate a possible torn CCV diaphragm?

1. There is absolutely no resistance to blowing with a 1/2 inch OD hose inserted into the CCV upper vent tube, at idle, low speed, and at high speed.

2. There is 17.5 to 19 mBar (too high) vacuum at idle as measured with a 5/8" ID clear vinyl tube set up as a water manometer on the oil dipstick guide tube.

If the CCV diaphragm is toast, shouldn't I be seeing some sort of DTC error code or smoke in the exhaust (neither of which do I have)?

EDIT: I'll re-run the manometer test after using more string and/or wire to ensure parallel lines, perpendicular to the ground, as suggested.
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Last edited by bluebee; 06-11-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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