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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 06-09-2012, 08:06 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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No-Rosion test results for Evans waterless coolant

http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm


Not trying to start a big fuss here, I'm basically an Evans fan, but wondered if anyone had seen the claims being made in this Evans study by the maker of No-Rosion.
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  #2  
Old 06-09-2012, 10:09 PM
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Thanks for posting this. It pretty much spells it out what I felt - the engine was running hotter, having the pusher fan on every time I arrived home. And when you think (some) people didn't believe me.......
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  #3  
Old 06-09-2012, 10:23 PM
Ed Cheung Ed Cheung is offline
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You do need a good(safe) amount of pressure for the pump to move the liquid in the system efficiently.
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  #4  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:12 AM
Tuskfish Tuskfish is offline
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I've had a several gallons of Evans sitting in the garage for months contemplating how I was going to drain ALL of the old water based coolant from my system.

Guess I'll stick with good old RO/DI water and antifreeze like always.

Thanks for posting the link, their products are interesting.
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  #5  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:34 AM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Interesting article confirms what Doru advised us when he decided to remove Evans from his system.

Strangely, No-rosion sounds alot like Redline's Water Wetter product.

In found this part of the link most intriguing in about use of distilled water vs drinking vs tap:

Quote:

Q. Should I use distilled water as coolant?

A. Yes. But only in a 50/50 mix. Distilled water should not be used as straight water coolant, because it can cause damage to system metals. The reason has to do with how distilled water is created.

During the distillation process, water is vaporized into its gaseous phase, so all impurities are left behind. These impurities include a number of minerals, including calcium and magnesium, the two components of hardness. The water is then condensed back into its liquid phase, so the resulting liquid is pure water. In fact, some of the purest water on earth. The problem is that distillation strips impurities from water, resulting in water molecules that are electrochemically imbalanced. So distilled water will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to rebalance itself electrochemically. This can result in damage to metals in a cooling system.

Using distilled water in combination with 50% antifreeze effectively cuts the amount of distilled water in half. By compounding with glycol, it will not cause damage to metals in a cooling system. For this reason, it is safe to use distilled water in a 50/50 mix.

Q. What type of water is best to use as straight water coolant?

A. Reverse osmosis (RO) water. Rather than stripping impurities from water, RO filters them through a membrane. The resulting water is electrochemically stable, and not harmful to metals in a cooling system. RO water is every bit as pure as distilled water, but without the risk of electrochemical stripping of electrons from system metals.

Q. Where can I find reverse osmosis (RO) water?

A. At the local supermarket. Look for DRINKING WATER, which is available in gallon bottles. But do not confuse it with SPRING WATER, which is often high in mineral content. We have performed extensive testing of major brands and generic brands of bottled drinking water, and found that it is almost always composed of RO water.

Q. What are the benefits of using purified water, such as distilled or RO?

A. It lacks the impurities of tap water. Without impurities, its ability to function as an electrolyte is greatly diminished, thereby minimizing damage from electrolysis. It contains no hardness, meaning it will not form scales and deposits that can cause overheating. It does not contain other damaging contaminants, such as chloride or sulfate. And importantly, it enhances the overall performance of No-Rosion, allowing it to more effectively function and provide the full range of benefits that it has been engineered to provide.

Q. Can I safely use softened water as coolant?

A. No. It was previously our recommendation that softened water be used as engine coolant. This is because, like reverse osmosis, water softening removes impurities in a manner that results in water molecules being electrochemically balanced. However, we have since changed our recommendation. The reason for this change is that some water softeners do not effectively remove chloride and sulfate contaminants from tap water.

Q. How do water contaminants such as chloride or sulfate cause damage?

A. Chloride reacts with water over time to form hydrochloric acid. And sulfate reacts with water over time to form sulfuric acid. Both of these acids have very low pH levels, and are extremely corrosive to metals in a cooling system - especially aluminum. We see more aluminum radiator failures as a result of using tap water that is high in chloride than from any other cause of damage - including electrolysis.

Q. What is the source of chloride in tap water?

A. Chloride can come from a number of naturally-occurring sources. Tap water in cities that are near an ocean is often high in chloride. This is especially the case in cities where ocean water is processed in desalination plants to create tap water. Runoff from salted roads during the winter can also make its way into underground wells and water tables, creating high chloride level in tap water. It is also a byproduct of oilfield activities as well, so can also be found in high concentration in geographic areas near oil drilling. And it is used in making various forms of aggregate for paving of new roads.

Q. Will No-Rosion protect against damage from chloride?

A. It depends on the amount of chloride present in the water being used as coolant. The more that is present, the greater the amount of acid that is formed. If there is a large enough amount of strong acid formed, it will fully deplete the reserve alkalinity protection that No-Rosion provides. This will result in rapid degradation of coolant pH, and severe corrosion to metals - again, especially aluminum.

Q. Can I determine whether my tap water contains too much chloride?

A. Yes. We offer a Water Test Packet that can be used for testing water that you use as engine coolant. The ASTM has established a maximum level of 25 ppm (parts per million) for chloride in engine coolant. Our Water Test Packet is a quick, easy, cost-effective way of determining whether any type of water is low enough in chloride to be safely used as engine coolant. For more information on this product, please refer to the link at the bottom of this page.

Q. Should I switch to a waterless engine coolant to avoid issues with water?

A. We recommend against it. There are a number of heat transfer and performance limitations associated with waterless engine coolant that make it less than optimal. This is especially the case for older engines with non-hardened valve seats. We spent 9 months researching waterless coolant, both in the laboratory, and in a fleet of test vehicles. To view our EVANS WATERLESS COOLANT OVERVIEW OF RESEARCH RESULTS, click here

Last edited by dvsgene; 06-10-2012 at 09:41 AM.
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  #6  
Old 06-10-2012, 09:40 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Cheung View Post
You do need a good(safe) amount of pressure for the pump to move the liquid in the system efficiently.
Can you elaborate? This is not one of the claims made by the No-Rosion test findings. The only thing in there that they mention about pumps is speculation that Evans coolant viscocity might reduce WP life-spans. In other words, they didn't test and have no data on that.

I'm not an engineer but system pressure is not directional and it's not clear to me how a system with zero pressure impacts pump efficiency, especially with e39 mechanical pumps.
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  #7  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:11 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvsgene View Post
Interesting article confirms what Doru advised us when he decided to remove Evans from his system.

Strangely, No-rosion sounds alot like Redline's Water Wetter product.
Yeah, it does nothing for the pressure demon, which is the main point of using Evans.

I installed Evans in my car yesterday (partly from curiosity and also because I bought and intended to install it a half-year back). If I see any adverse results including those that Doru experienced, I'll probably put BMW coolant back in. Keep in mind though.... Several e39ers who switched to Evans stand by it and have not experienced the problems Doru (or Whorse) did, so I think the outcome will be more along the lines of "case-by-case." Either it does what you hoped for, or it creates problems you can't live with.

In a long drive around town here yesterday evening, the car did not heat up beyond 96 C and sat at 94-95 C most of the time while occasionally dropping back to 91-93 C. That's the exact same behavior it displayed with BMW coolant, so it tells me the t-stat is adaptive, but it's not from summer stop-n-go in slow traffic with A/C on, so "we'll see...". Place your bets.

An aside: in pulling my system apart yesterday for the conversion, I removed and disassembled my heater valve to clean it out. I expected to find a lot of gunk but it was clean as a whistle and there was nothing to do but put it back together. When I did my cooling system overhaul almost 2 years ago, I installed fresh BMW coolant; the old coolant at that time was also blue-tinted so I think the previous owner stuck to the BMW dealer's schedule.
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  #8  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:32 AM
Ed Cheung Ed Cheung is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Can you elaborate? This is not one of the claims made by the No-Rosion test findings. The only thing in there that they mention about pumps is speculation that Evans coolant viscocity might reduce WP life-spans. In other words, they didn't test and have no data on that.

I'm not an engineer but system pressure is not directional and it's not clear to me how a system with zero pressure impacts pump efficiency, especially with e39 mechanical pumps.

I could be wrong but, when you look at the way the cooling system is, hot coolant leave the engine at the top and colder coolant enter at the bottom, the hot coolant will expand and the increase pressure will helps the flow.

And the pressure also helps to get ride of the air bubbles.
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  #9  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:32 AM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
Several e39ers who switched to Evans stand by it and have not experienced the problems Doru (or Whorse) did, so I think the outcome will be more along the lines of "case-by-case." Either it does what you hoped for, or it creates problems you can't live with.

The most interesting part of all the feedback from both sides: Doru, Whorse and Chiefwej is that the people who report issues are located in cold areas Doru in Calgary and Whorse in NY. While Chiefwej is in the hot Arizona desert.

Can't make heads or tails out of it as I would expect the reverse issues. Higher temps in hotter climate and lower temps in lower climate.

I would expect your outcome in Oregon would be the same as those of Doru and Whorse unless there is another unknown cause for the reversal.
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  #10  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:25 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvsgene View Post
The most interesting part of all the feedback from both sides: Doru, Whorse and Chiefwej is that the people who report issues are located in cold areas Doru in Calgary and Whorse in NY. While Chiefwej is in the hot Arizona desert.

Can't make heads or tails out of it as I would expect the reverse issues. Higher temps in hotter climate and lower temps in lower climate.

I would expect your outcome in Oregon would be the same as those of Doru and Whorse unless there is another unknown cause for the reversal.
It's really had to draw conclusions unless we have more folks posting their outcomes with Evans. I've seen anecdotal comments by several more e39ers that claim good results but so far Doru and Whorse are the only two that I've seen post negatives. The common denominator for them is i6, which of course should concern me. I may be happy with the stuff ... or not. Doru in particular was fairly detailed in his thread on the subject and it seems unlikely (to me) that he could have been any more exhaustive with his procedure for making the change-over to Evans, so I don't feel that his outcome was a result of human error.

I posted the link to the No-Rosion maker's test findings because they bring up certain things that may be worth thinking about (despite some irrelevance to my application). They have not yet convinced me to ignore a few decades of Evans use by the real world, though.

On my car, the almost-new Behr clutch fan has tended to kick in early on warm days (high 70s up) in slow town traffic, transforming the car into a crop duster for a few seconds. I don't expect that to change for the better with Evans. I am concerned to see what the pusher fan starts doing, though, and if it becomes annoying or not.
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  #11  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:27 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Cheung View Post
I could be wrong but, when you look at the way the cooling system is, hot coolant leave the engine at the top and colder coolant enter at the bottom, the hot coolant will expand and the increase pressure will helps the flow.

And the pressure also helps to get ride of the air bubbles.
Ed, this fits within the scope of "speculation."
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  #12  
Old 06-10-2012, 12:00 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Some rebuttals of the No-Rosion findings in this thread at BoBIsTheOilGuy.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2584466&page=1
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  #13  
Old 06-10-2012, 07:37 PM
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I still have Evans NPG+ running in my m62tu. Still have the fan clutch "engaging" due to the higher under hood temps. OIL temp is still higher than normal coolant so i just run M1 15/50. I didnt like how BMW 5-30 and M1 0/40 oil would come out like water when i hit 3k miles.

I rather take it easy and keep the revs under 2k when i hear the flan clutch engage and use thicker oil to withstand the higher temps, Than exploding cooling system every time i get throttle happy.
Pros and Cons i guess.

Btw i heard a couple of people claim they had evans coming out the exhaust that seeped through the headgasket??/ I don't have that problem. Ive put 10K miles on the evans coolant and the level is EXACTLY the same as the day i filled it and bleed it.

EDIT I also forgot to mention that the little hiss that i would get when opening the cap has now stopped. Im pretty sure it was the residual water that had to be steamed out of the system. I kept opening the cap for a few weeks and let the steam out. Now there is Absolutly 0 pressure in the system with or without cap.
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Last edited by Whorse; 06-10-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-10-2012, 07:52 PM
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Wow every thing i was claiming was in that report.
Explains why my temps at the valve cover were so much higher.
I have developed a lifter tick since the switch but i cant be sure if thats from running thicker oil or just cause Ive been driving it hard since i can now rev it without the cooling system exploding.

Quote:
After proper conversion to the Evans products, the average temperature of engine cylinder heads increased by 115-140oF, versus running with No-Rosion and water.

The reason for hotter cylinder heads relates to the specific heat capacity of these different fluids. Water has a specific heat capacity of 1.00. It transfers heat more effectively than any other fluid, and is therefore used as the reference fluid in the scientific measure of specific heat capacity. Comparatively, the specific heat capacity of the various glycol solutions in the Evans products ranges from 0.64 to 0.68. So they conduct roughly half as much heat as does water, or water with No-Rosion. (No-Rosion does not alter the specific heat capacity of water.)

Cylinder head temperatures of 115-140oF hotter with the Evans products translates to a stabilized bulk coolant temperature increase of 31-48oF, as compared to No-Rosion and water.

As case in point, conversion of a Chevrolet LS-1 engine from No-Rosion and water to Evans Waterless Coolant resulted in an increase of 128oF at the cylinder heads. We saw a stabilized bulk coolant temperature of 192oF with water and No-Rosion, and 236oF with the Evans product. So the temperature increased by 44oF after converting to the Evans product.

By having engine cylinder head temperatures 128oF hotter with the Evans product, a number of performance setbacks were observed: (1) the octane requirement was increased by 5-7 numbers, (2) the computerized ignition system retarded timing by 8-10o to avoid trace knock, (3) horsepower was correspondingly reduced by 4-5%, as confirmed on a chassis dyno.

In our pre-1970s test vehicles, we also saw evidence of increased recession rates of non-hardened valve seats. When cylinder head temperatures are elevated to this degree, brinelling damage can occur. This is a process in which the metal seat softens due to heat that is beyond what it was originally designed to tolerate. Recession therefore occurs at an accelerated rate. Valve seat brinelling is seen in engines of vehicles built prior to the early 1970s, after they have been allowed to run too hot, for too long.

Conversion to Evans products also requires reprogramming of ECUs in modern vehicles with electric fans. Most vehicle ECUs are programmed to turn the fan on at a coolant temperature of 200-210oF, and turn the fan off at 180-190oF. Because engines run so much hotter with Evans coolant, the ECU must be reprogrammed to an Evans-recommended turn-on temperature of 230oF, and an Evans-recommended turn-off temperature of 215oF. Without reprogramming the ECU, the fans would run continuously.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
It's really had to draw conclusions unless we have more folks posting their outcomes with Evans. I've seen anecdotal comments by several more e39ers that claim good results but so far Doru and Whorse are the only two that I've seen post negatives. The common denominator for them is i6, which of course should concern me. I may be happy with the stuff ... or not. Doru in particular was fairly detailed in his thread on the subject and it seems unlikely (to me) that he could have been any more exhaustive with his procedure for making the change-over to Evans, so I don't feel that his outcome was a result of human error.

I posted the link to the No-Rosion maker's test findings because they bring up certain things that may be worth thinking about (despite some irrelevance to my application). They have not yet convinced me to ignore a few decades of Evans use by the real world, though.

On my car, the almost-new Behr clutch fan has tended to kick in early on warm days (high 70s up) in slow town traffic, transforming the car into a crop duster for a few seconds. I don't expect that to change for the better with Evans. I am concerned to see what the pusher fan starts doing, though, and if it becomes annoying or not.
V8 here just like Chief
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  #16  
Old 06-11-2012, 01:24 PM
haolibird haolibird is online now
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San Diego chiming in...

As I am no engineer, and have not tested the temp on the outside of the valve covers, I can offer no conclusions, other than the same amount that went in, is still in there.

The coolant temp remains constant at 95 to 97c, and I don't seem to be having any issues.

This thread is scaring the sh*t out of me.

It would be nice if a totally independant study was done.
The study posted is by a competitor, and, if you torture the data enough, it will give you the answers you desire.

I shouldn't say this, but my car is VERY trouble free.
None of the typical E39 gremlins.

Not to say I haven't changed my cooling system, (95k), valve cover and intake, (135k), and a sh*tload of tires, but that is just normal maint issues.

Thank you to the contributors of this thread.

Chief, any reason you're not weighing in, one way or the other?

Mahalo,
Tom
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:41 PM
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It seems that the v8 and 528 take the NPG very good.
The M54B30 does not. Maybe it has something to do with how the block is manufactured (metallurgy)?
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:51 PM
haolibird haolibird is online now
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I sincereley thank all the input that has gone into this thread.

Oh, can somebody tell me why there's water in my back seat?
And...my seat is twisting...
BTW, has anybody had a problem with their ignition?
DSP?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself...

Mahalo!
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:55 PM
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All I can say is that my experience has been that Evans NPG performs exactly as advertised. In the time I have been using it I have had zero problems. A slight seep of coolant I was getting from the valley pan gasket has even stopped, do to the lack of any pressure in the system. Many of the claimed problems due to the higher viscosity of NPG+ have now been eliminated with the introduction of the newer reformulated product. It is a much lower viscosity and would reduce the (perceived) strain on the water pump, and improved circulation could go a long way to dealing with many of the other (so called) problems with their product.

I'm running it in my cars with no issues, and wil continue to do so. If I ever experience any cooling system problems that could be attributed in any way to NPG, this forum would be the first to know.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:45 PM
Mikes530 Mikes530 is offline
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Quote from the link
"Reverse osmosis (RO) water. Rather than stripping impurities from water, RO filters them through a membrane. The resulting water is electrochemically stable, and not harmful to metals in a cooling system. RO water is every bit as pure as distilled water, but without the risk of electrochemical stripping of electrons from system metals."

I've always used water from a dehumidifier as a substitute for distilled water. Have I been doing a good thing without knowing it or does this water have the same issues as distilled? Could someone with some knowledge of chemistry please comment.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:51 PM
dvsgene dvsgene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes530 View Post
Quote from the link
"Reverse osmosis (RO) water. Rather than stripping impurities from water, RO filters them through a membrane. The resulting water is electrochemically stable, and not harmful to metals in a cooling system. RO water is every bit as pure as distilled water, but without the risk of electrochemical stripping of electrons from system metals."

I've always used water from a dehumidifier as a substitute for distilled water. Have I been doing a good thing without knowing it or does this water have the same issues as distilled? Could someone with some knowledge of chemistry please comment.
Without even knowing chemistry, that water from humidifiers are far from clean or even distilled. Mold grows and dust accumulates on the inside of dehumidifiers and impurities collect and drop off the coils. What ever gave you the idea that it's "distilled"? This would be like collecting the runnoff from an air conditioner as it "sweats"
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefwej View Post
All I can say is that my experience has been that Evans NPG performs exactly as advertised. In the time I have been using it I have had zero problems. A slight seep of coolant I was getting from the valley pan gasket has even stopped, do to the lack of any pressure in the system. Many of the claimed problems due to the higher viscosity of NPG+ have now been eliminated with the introduction of the newer reformulated product. It is a much lower viscosity and would reduce the (perceived) strain on the water pump, and improved circulation could go a long way to dealing with many of the other (so called) problems with their product.

I'm running it in my cars with no issues, and wil continue to do so. If I ever experience any cooling system problems that could be attributed in any way to NPG, this forum would be the first to know.
Chief have you swapped out the NPG+ for the new NPG+c ?
The viscosity and surface tension hasn't changed so i wonder how much better can it flow??

The only thing i don't like about using this coolant for the past 10k miles is the higher underhood, oil, valve cover temps.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:06 PM
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No, my system still has the original NPG+ in it.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2012, 06:26 PM
Bwood1 Bwood1 is offline
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Location: Austin, TX
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 119
Mein Auto: 1999 528i, 2002 540i
Evans Believer

I have a 1999 528i with 218k and have been running Evans for about 3 years with no problems and it saved my engine when my water pump bearing went out. I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and the temp guage was pegged by the time I was able to get to the side of the road. All that had to be done was replace the water pump and top off the Evans. The company said I did not need to replace the remaining coolant that was left in the car. I am a firm believer my engine would have been fried without it.
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  #25  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:40 PM
Whorse Whorse is offline
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Location: Queens, Ny
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 346
Mein Auto: e30, e39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwood1 View Post
I have a 1999 528i with 218k and have been running Evans for about 3 years with no problems and it saved my engine when my water pump bearing went out. I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and the temp guage was pegged by the time I was able to get to the side of the road. All that had to be done was replace the water pump and top off the Evans. The company said I did not need to replace the remaining coolant that was left in the car. I am a firm believer my engine would have been fried without it.
The only thing the evans did in that case was keep the leak to a minimum and keep the system pressure free so it wouldn't blow a water passage in the head-gaskets.
You still could of warped the heads or cracked the block. Its just a matter of time and conditions.

Evans is great for high pressure e39's but i wouldn't use it on my other cars. The "possible" cons outweigh the pros when pressure is no concern.
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