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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #76  
Old 06-19-2012, 01:41 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derSpeed View Post
After reading this thread, I wondered:

What was BMW's competition for the S4 before the 335i?

If I were a kid, would an R8 be on my list of cars I want.

Who has taken their BMW apart (I have, and not just mine) and noticed that the components are of no better quality than those of an Audi, or VW in some cases.

Who wants to hobnob with folks who "hob-knob?"



This forum actually reminds me of the VW, Audi, Volvo and Saab forums I have belonged to in the past. Very helpful members and very little arrogance. In my experience, Benz forums are full of the latter. Those types seem to have little car knowledge. Still great cars to own though.
The other war around. BMW didn't have 3er competition for the S4, because nobody had any real competition for the 3er.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 06-19-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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  #77  
Old 06-19-2012, 02:14 PM
OBS3SSION OBS3SSION is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
The other war around. BMW didn't have 3er competition for the S4, because nobody had any real competition for the 3er.
I think in the past the comparison kinds of loosely went like...

3 Series range <-> A4 range
M3 <-> S4
M3 specialty cars (CSL, etc.) <-> RS4

However, even that wasn't necessarily an apples-apples lineup. Now things are a little different and line up more like this...

328 <-> A4
335 <-> S4
M3 <-> RS4

I remember years ago Top Gear doing a comparison between the M3 and S4, and pretty much said the S4 was the executive sports saloon with poise and refinement, while the M3 was the the aggressive little dog yapping away and nipping at its heels. In many ways that held true for the entire BMW-Audi comparison. Audi was always the automotive business suit while BMW was the track suit.
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  #78  
Old 06-19-2012, 02:39 PM
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Eric, you're going to have to be careful about that kind of non Audi bashing attitude around here, you might get an earful!

Really though both are great cars... someone fortunate enough to have either as a daily ride should not be pissed off if the one they did not chose wins a comparison.

Last edited by voip-ninja; 06-19-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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  #79  
Old 06-19-2012, 04:10 PM
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boltjames is right. you either get it or you don't.
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  #80  
Old 06-19-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Eric, you're going to have to be careful about that kind of non Audi bashing attitude around here, you might get an earful!

Really though both are great cars... someone fortunate enough to have either as a daily ride should not be pissed off if the one they did not chose wins a comparison.
Just have to make a little comment here about one of Audi's new ads where the folks are climbing out of their Bimmers to climb onto an Audi car carrier as they all move down the road. Love Audi's "tagline", "Today more people than ever are leaving BMW for Audi." Of course, for that to be true only ONE more person than in the "past" has to leave BMW for Audi. Kind of like all the insurance commercials, "People who left XYZ auto insurance company saved an average of $10,000 per month when they switched to ABC auto insurance." And all the people who didn't save didn't switch. And the actual number of people who switched was two.
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  #81  
Old 06-19-2012, 05:11 PM
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Yeah, it's a pretty stupid ad. OTOH I do believe that Audi has been taking share from other premium auto makers in the US over the last few years.
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  #82  
Old 06-19-2012, 05:16 PM
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No dumber than "Joy", "The Four Door Sports Car", "Engineered to Move the Human Spirit", "Grab Life by the Horns", "Standard of the World", "What a Luxury Car SHould Be", or any of the other BS slogans ad agencies have come up with.
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  #83  
Old 06-19-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by enigma View Post

Ever wonder why many think BMW drivers are snobs? I think you should look yourself in the mirror for an answer.
That's the entire point. That's why we drive BMW's. I don't get why so many want to hide their heads in shame from the very perception that has been created over thirty decades.

Embrace the stereotype.

BJ
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  #84  
Old 06-19-2012, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
That's the entire point. That's why we drive BMW's. I don't get why so many want to hide their heads in shame from the very perception that has been created over thirty decades.

Embrace the stereotype.

BJ
WOW!

Thirty Decades - That's 300 years! Who would have thought that!

Even Mercedes Benz only goes back 110 years.

With BMW's 200 year head start it's amazing the other car companies have comes as close to BMW as they have.

Amazing the the Bavarians of the early 1700s were able to establish a car company and infuse it with so much prestige and still manage to fight a war with the Ottoman Empire.





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  #85  
Old 06-19-2012, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
WOW!

Thirty Decades - That's 300 years! Who would have thought that!

Even Mercedes Benz only goes back 110 years.

With BMW's 200 year head start it's amazing the other car companies have comes as close to BMW as they have.

Amazing the the Bavarians of the early 1700s were able to establish a car company and infuse it with so much prestige and still manage to fight a war with the Ottoman Empire.

CA
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
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  #86  
Old 06-19-2012, 07:32 PM
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Here, let me help...

Any brand with a worldwide daily production number that includes a comma IS NOT a luxury BRAND (they might have luxurious models/trim lines) but true luxury isn't made in high volume for ANY industry/product I know of...
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  #87  
Old 06-19-2012, 07:43 PM
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I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
Including him.



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  #88  
Old 06-19-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rdollie View Post
Here, let me help...

Any brand with a worldwide daily production number that includes a comma IS NOT a luxury BRAND (they might have luxurious models/trim lines) but true luxury isn't made in high volume for ANY industry/product I know of...
Rolex is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average wristwatch owner.

Louis Vuitton is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average luggage owner.

Chanel for cosmetics. Harry Winston for jewelry. Prada, Dior, Armani, the list goes on. Lots of commas there in weekly production.

"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.

BJ
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  #89  
Old 06-19-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
I'm not looking to set any forum on fire or entertain. It astounds me that there are BMW drivers who actually think that the vast majority of BMW drivers are in it for this "performance" myth and not the "status symbol" reality.

In my neighborhood, a BMW is the bare-minimum badge needed to turn a head or two on the streets, I see about two dozen 3 Series a day, I get where some are coming from about how "dime-a-dozen" they can be, trust me. But by the same token I've lived in communities that aren't so fabulously well off, was lucky to see a single other 3 Series in a day, could go months without an M3 or E93 sighting.

The review that started this thread is not about "Audi vs. BMW in communities where the average home price is $3.5M". It's talking about Audi vs. BMW on a national level, and to the average American an Audi is a nice step-up for a Volkswagen owner. It's not a status symbol like BMW.

I don't think there's anything controversial there. I think it's quite factual.

BJ
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  #90  
Old 06-19-2012, 09:33 PM
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As an E92 owner I felt that BJs posts in the forum (and the subsequent reactions) had become an important part my BMW experience. Therefore I am excited to see that my F32 forum participation will have the same perks.

@BJ I was in my friends Infiniti today and could not stop wondering why he paid so much for a Nissan Maxima.

@Everybody else, Do we think there will be an upgrade for the 335 engine when the coupes come out? I remember the E90 330i getting killed by the new lexus IS (at the time) etc and vala, out came the N54. Thoughts?
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  #91  
Old 06-19-2012, 10:30 PM
rdollie rdollie is offline
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Sorry I respectfully disagree. Only the young / nouveau would look at a BMW as something to attain. At 43 years of age I'm not old but I'm old enough to remember when the average e36 had a very pedestrian interior. It might have seemed like a 'premium' car to the working class but to just as many of them it was simply an odd-ball non-American car (in much the same way a Saab or Volvo might have been perceived) and for many it was simply a car for snobs or d-bags who were newly rich. If you go back a few decades a Mercedes felt special or different to the working class. If you climbed into one it truly showed interior craftsmanship well beyond what a Caddy or Lincoln would exhibit (and commanded a premium for it.) BMW wasn't on the radar as a status symbol for the working class or wealthy. In those days the money in BMWs went into the chassis / suspension design and not as much in the interior and exterior looks. If you wanted a luxury car you bought a Benz, Caddy, or even a Lincoln not a BMW.

It's only in the past couple of generations of models that BMW grew a reputation for premium cars in the U.S. since they wouldn't ship stripped cars on anything but a custom order.

I do agree that the average person who buys a BMW isn't buying it for performance. BMW also agrees by putting such a high ratio of the materials cost into gadgets, leather, etc.

Whether an uneducated (automotively) person recognizes that the average U.S.-sold Audi has as much if not more premium content than a comparable BMW doesn't change the fact that Audi is every bit as 'luxury' or 'premium' as BMW. If you disagree I suggest you write the German government and tell them to stop chauferring their Chancellors around in Audis as they've done for years. I also don't think the 'average' non-car guy even knows VAG owns both Audi and VW (not like they're sold under the same roof anymore) letalone Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, etc.

In my experience, in less well off parts of the country people don't aspire to own BMWs. They're just coming around to buying foreign brands built in North America (e.g., Toyota, Nissan, etc.) They might covet a nicer SUV, King Ranch p/u, etc. but even when I've seen people in mid-America with money they don't go out and buy BMWs. In areas with a lot of money BMWs are the equivalent of Honda Civics (when I lived in South Orange County, CA a BMW 3 series was literally a shopping accessory for a teenaged girl - it was the most common car in the mall parking lots and usually you saw a teen girl and her friends getting out or climbing in loaded with packages - of course this was when everybody used their home equity as a piggy bank.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm not looking to set any forum on fire or entertain. It astounds me that there are BMW drivers who actually think that the vast majority of BMW drivers are in it for this "performance" myth and not the "status symbol" reality.

In my neighborhood, a BMW is the bare-minimum badge needed to turn a head or two on the streets, I see about two dozen 3 Series a day, I get where some are coming from about how "dime-a-dozen" they can be, trust me. But by the same token I've lived in communities that aren't so fabulously well off, was lucky to see a single other 3 Series in a day, could go months without an M3 or E93 sighting.

The review that started this thread is not about "Audi vs. BMW in communities where the average home price is $3.5M". It's talking about Audi vs. BMW on a national level, and to the average American an Audi is a nice step-up for a Volkswagen owner. It's not a status symbol like BMW.

I don't think there's anything controversial there. I think it's quite factual.

BJ
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  #92  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

The review that started this thread is not about "Audi vs. BMW in communities where the average home price is $3.5M". It's talking about Audi vs. BMW on a national level, and to the average American an Audi is a nice step-up for a Volkswagen owner. It's not a status symbol like BMW.

I don't think there's anything controversial there. I think it's quite factual.

BJ
Just to flame the fire... Do you really think the average American KNOWS that an Audi is made by Volkswagen? Or for that matter, VW owns Porsche, and that a Cayenne is just a rebadged VW Toureg?
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  #93  
Old 06-20-2012, 01:04 AM
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Lamborghini made a public statement to its customers that it will not use more that 30% of Audi parts in their vehicles. Audi Group operates as a separate entity even though it is owned by VAG. Since the Audi group owns Lambo, what does that make a Lambo? An Audi or a VW. I just love reading the posts that fanboys make and how they try to discount anything negative about their brand.

Here's a photo of a Lambo trans-axel

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, BMW parts are no better than Audi or VW because they are simply random part bins. Many parts are actually in common between Audi, BMW, and MB because they use companies like GETRAG, Bosch, etc. to develop transmission, steering, and other components for their specific cars. Premium automakers do not manufacture all their own parts. They engineer and design the car as a whole and outsource its manufacturing to other companies. Chassis and engine are mostly what many automakers still do in-house.

Here is a list of U.S. suppliers for their U.S. plant - They pretty much use the same suppliers as GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

http://www.bmwusfactory.com/uploaded...0for%20web.pdf

Another thing about Audi that you fanboys do not understand is that it was acquired by VW and not conceived by them unlike Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti. VW is growing through acquisition and using its power and money to successfully grow brands faster than the brands themselves could do independently. Parts will be shared to control cost, but engineering and design are still, for the most part, independent.

Audi
Porsche
Lamborghini
Bugatti
Bentley
Skoda
SEAT, sa

Ducati Motorcycles <-- Recent acquisition

Look past the VW brand and just think about the access to resources that Audi has from its step siblings. These companies are thriving because of VW's deep pockets. BMW is where they are because of its badge and brand recognition. BJ is right, if you were to ask a poor boy in India what his dream car would be, he would say BMW or MB before a Bugatti. The downside is that you have your average joe leasing a BMW for $400/month and he thinks he owns something special.
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  #94  
Old 06-20-2012, 01:35 AM
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To respond to BJ's comment on how Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura is not a Luxury brand, here is some objective data to prove him wrong.

Top 50 most search for luxury brands in the U.S.:



A focus on the Luxury Automobile Market
An insight into the most popular segment shows the breakdown of searches by car models. Audi dominates featuring 4 of its models in the top 15 ranking, with the Audi A4 claiming the number spot. The 4th most popular automobile brand Acura, sees its TL model taking 2nd position while the brand leader BMW has its 3 series ranking only in 7th position.




in China:



in Russia:

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  #95  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:16 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
To respond to BJ's comment on how Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura is not a Luxury brand, here is some objective data to prove him wrong.
Ohhh yea! Patek Philippe isn't on those lists people just don't know greatness... Rolex
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  #96  
Old 06-20-2012, 05:59 AM
gizmo jean gizmo jean is offline
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Originally Posted by johnc_22 View Post
I'm having flashbacks to a few years ago when BJ set the E90 forum on fire. I enjoy his comedy because so many take him seriously.
+1 High comedy. And yet seemingly sophisticated adults seem to fall for it every time. Kudos to BJ!
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  #97  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:24 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Rolex is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average wristwatch owner.

Louis Vuitton is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average luggage owner.

Chanel for cosmetics. Harry Winston for jewelry. Prada, Dior, Armani, the list goes on. Lots of commas there in weekly production.

"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.

BJ
I don't understand what you mean. Seriously. Why are BMW and Mercedes out of reach for Mr and Mrs Sonata (or Accord or Fusion) but Cadillac, Lexus and Audi who compete at the same price point are not? Cadillac may not have the same prestige as the others but it is still a brand with cache. The typical aspirational luxury car buyer sees Lexus and Audi to be as unobtainable as BMW or Mercedes.
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  #98  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.

BJ
I consider myself an average middle class American, I can buy a brand new basic 2011 328i for about the same price as a loaded Toyota Camry V6. I would say that both cars are not out of reach for the average American. The Camry is actually faster and bigger, the 328i is sportier and better built, it really depends on one's piority.
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  #99  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:44 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Wait, if 3ers are the 7th most searched, A4 the number one searched, but the 3ers out sell A4, does that not support BJ's contention somewhat?
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  #100  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:54 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Wait, if 3ers are the 7th most searched, A4 the number one searched, but the 3ers out sell A4, does that not support BJ's contention somewhat?
So let me see if I have this straight.

The fact that the 3 Series outsells the A4 supports the contention that the 3 Series is more exclusive than the A4 and that the 3 Series is out of reach for most people and the A4 is not.
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Last edited by captainaudio; 06-20-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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