Get Cutting Edge Hybrid Technology in the All-New BMW ActiveHybrid 3

Originally Posted by Elk

You will have a long and successful career designing F1 cars, spacecraft, power generating stations - everything - with your unique ability to overcome the laws of physics.

An ability to overcome the laws of physics is precisely what's required to have a successful career designing spacecraft.

Originally Posted by d geek

I agree that "mid 4's" from 0-60 is not gonna happen.

"performance monster" is relative. 0 to 60 mph in 5 sec is pretty impressive for most sedans. When you consider ~30 mpUSg combined, it is an impressive feat indeed.

Doesn't need to do 0-60 in M3 times. If it just does 4.9 seconds 0-60, I will be extremely happy. I will be very happy if it does it in 5.0 seconds. And happy if it does it in 5.2 seconds. And mostly that all relates to bragging rights since I'm hardly going to *feel* the difference between 0.3 seconds when getting to 60MPH.

Originally Posted by d geek

I agree that "mid 4's" from 0-60 is not gonna happen.

"performance monster" is relative.

Yes.

My comment is hybrid F30 v. 335 F30. The hybrid may turn out to be a tick faster, but will not corner/handle as well - pretty much a toss-up in both cases.

If I want a hybrid I will buy Prius, from BMW I expect uncompromised performance and MPG is my problem from there on.

Originally Posted by Elk

Yes.

My comment is hybrid F30 v. 335 F30. The hybrid may turn out to be a tick faster, but will not corner/handle as well - pretty much a toss-up in both cases.

Why do you say it will not handle/corner as well, when the added weight is placed in the back and low to the ground?

Originally Posted by dtc100

Why do you say it will not handle/corner as well, when the added weight is placed in the back and low to the ground?

Precisely. It's entirely possible that it could actually handle better. The extra weight is placed in the best possible spot and could actually contribute to the car's road-holding capability.

More weight means more inertia, so slalom time would most likely be impacted.

I guess from the perspective of gravity the car would stick to the road better

Originally Posted by bmwexecutive

Precisely. It's entirely possible that it could actually handle better. The extra weight is placed in the best possible spot and could actually contribute to the car's road-holding capability.

Nonsense.

Weight is the enemy of handling. Every race car designer, every road car engineer, does everything he can to reduce weight.

Every extra pound takes more energy to accelerate and stop, reduces maximum cornering, delays rotational transitions - bad in every way. A lighter car accelerates faster, stops more quickly, can corner at higher speed and transition more aggressively.

Remember, cornering is continually accelerating mass with a changing vector. A Heavy vehicle, like a Hummer, does not want to hold onto the road while cornering; it wants to slide off to the outside. A Miata is delighted to rip around the corner.

This is not a function of a higher center of gravity. A high center of gravity makes the car want to roll over on its side, not slide sideways. (Yes, suspension issues decreases grip with a higher center of gravity, but this is another can of worms.)

Yes, if you must add weight, lower and more centered is less deleterious. Not adding the weight at all is vastly better.

I think an extra 300 lbs added to the rear axle and to further lower the center of gravity of the car, while this added weight contributes to some additional 115 ft-lb of torque at idle, and raise the mpg by anther 10, is a very good trade off.

Whether it will corner better or not, let's wait and see the test results.

Originally Posted by dtc100

. . . to some additional 115 ft-lb of torque at idle

Remember, by the time you are going walking speed (2-3 MPH) the additional torque is, at most, 30 ft-bs - very modest.

Interestingly, the percentage increase in power is nearly the same as the percentage increase in weight.

Whether it will corner better or not, let's wait and see the test results.

Unless BMW has found a way to violate the laws of physics, it simply cannot. It is the same chassis and suspension - but weighs more. Adding weight is the equivalent to decreasing power and decreasing the radius of the friction circle.

It will not be a bad handling car, but will exhibit a bit less capability than a 335.

It will also be an interesting car. Purchase it if you find it intriguing, but do not buy it for increased performance.

Originally Posted by Elk

Remember, by the time you are going walking speed (2-3 MPH) the additional torque is, at most, 30 ft-bs - very modest.

Interestingly, the percentage increase in power is nearly the same as the percentage increase in weight.

If the torque of an electric motor drops so fast, how does a car like Tesla S get to do 0-60 in the 4's?

Unless BMW has found a way to violate the laws of physics, it simply cannot. It is the same chassis and suspension - but weighs more. Adding weight is the equivalent to decreasing power and decreasing the radius of the friction circle.

It will not be a bad handling car, but will exhibit a bit less capability than a 335.

It will also be an interesting car. Purchase it if you find it intriguing, but do not buy it for increased performance.

The g has a lot to do with the tires, though a hybrid is likely to use lower resistance tires, which does not help.

Lower center of gravity will allow the car to turn the corner with less body roll, a benefit in daily driving, more so than the g rating you get during the slalom test.

Originally Posted by Elk

Remember, by the time you are going walking speed (2-3 MPH) the additional torque is, at most, 30 ft-bs - very modest.

Interestingly, the percentage increase in power is nearly the same as the percentage increase in weight. ...

... Purchase it if you find it intriguing, but do not buy it for increased performance.

The torque supplied by the electric motor helps it acheive >60% better fuel economy in the city (citing Hybrid 5 numbers). Doesn't matter if its only 30 ftlbs at walking speed.

Achieving this kind of economy without losing any acceleration is a type of "increased performance"

Originally Posted by dtc100

If the torque of an electric motor drops so fast, how does a car like Tesla S get to do 0-60 in the 4's?

This is an entirely different implementation, obviously.

In the BMW, the maximum total torque ever available is 332 ft-lb. The N55 generates 300 lb-ft beginning at 1,200 RPM. Thus, when the engine is at 1,200 RPM. the motor torque is 32 lb-ft, using BMW's numbers.

Electric motors are capable of a flat torque curve if given large amounts of current. The Tesla carries massive, capable and expensive batteries to maintain this current. The BMW has a very modest set of batteries with a controller which vastly limits current (perfectly appropriate, merely a different implementation).

The g has a lot to do with the tires, though a hybrid is likely to use lower resistance tires, which does not help.

It may, but the lower handling performance exists regardless of tires. Low rolling resistance tires may however exacerbate any negative aspects.

Lower center of gravity will allow the car to turn the corner with less body roll, a benefit in daily driving . . .

You are forgetting that mass in motion wants to remain in motion in a straight line. Modifying its trajectory takes force. More mass, more force. More force, less maneuverable, less responsive, less capable.

This remains true regardless of where in the vehicle the weight is placed. It is, as you indicate, better to place any extra weight low rather than high.

An experiment for you:

Load three hundred pounds of rock salt in your car, placing it on the floor behind the front seats. This is roughly centered and low in the car. Accelerate, brake and corner. Is the performance "better" because you have lowered the center of gravity? Any change in roll? Does the car feel as quick? As maneuverable?

Try it. Seriously. It appears you are in for a bit of a surprise.

Originally Posted by d geek

Achieving this kind of economy without losing any acceleration is a type of "increased performance"

Fully agreed and a neat aspect of hybrids.

Originally Posted by d geek

More weight means more inertia, so slalom time would most likely be impacted.

I guess from the perspective of gravity the car would stick to the road better

I had a 2006 330i sport, a 2009 335i sport, and am currently driving a 2011 335d sport. The 335d is 500lbs heavier than the 335i but, in my opinion, it handles better. It just feels great. It's also a torque-monster and has very good fuel economy.

Originally Posted by Zhaunk

I had a 2006 330i sport, a 2009 335i sport, and am currently driving a 2011 335d sport. The 335d is 500lbs heavier than the 335i but, in my opinion, it handles better. It just feels great. It's also a torque-monster and has very good fuel economy.

That's promising, Zhaunk!

I have a feeling that's going to be the general consensus about the ActiveHybrid 3, too!

Originally Posted by Zhaunk

I had a 2006 330i sport, a 2009 335i sport, and am currently driving a 2011 335d sport. The 335d is 500lbs heavier than the 335i but, in my opinion, it handles better. It just feels great. It's also a torque-monster and has very good fuel economy.

But does your 335d corner better than the 335i, or 330i, when the amount of torque is not as important as the weight, and weight distribution of the car?

Originally Posted by dtc100

But does your 335d corner better than the 335i, or 330i, when the amount of torque is not as important as the weight, and weight distribution of the car?

I don't know if it corners better but it does not corner any worse. I drive pretty aggressively and the overall experience wih the d has been a pervasive feeling of stability, solidity and of being one with the road. Freude am Fahren.

Originally Posted by Zhaunk

I don't know if it corners better but it does not corner any worse. I drive pretty aggressively and the overall experience wih the d has been a pervasive feeling of stability, solidity and of being one with the road. Freude am Fahren.

Maybe you have not pushed them into the corners hard enough to tell the difference.

In street driving, as much as we try to drive aggresively at times, it is still no comparison to driving it at autox or on the track. It is not surprising that we don't really feel much difference in handling or cornering. Because all 3ers can handle streets just fine.

It is when you attack a corner at 80 mph that the weight of the car can really be felt, but the grip of different tires can be felt even more.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Maybe you have not pushed them into the corners hard enough to tell the difference.

In street driving, as much as we try to drive aggresively at times, it is still no comparison to driving it at autox or on the track. It is not surprising that we don't really feel much difference in handling or cornering. Because all 3ers can handle streets just fine.

It is when you attack a corner at 80 mph that the weight of the car can really be felt, but the grip of different tires can be felt even more.

Who cares?

If you can't tell the difference with the most aggressive street driving, what does it matter? If you can't tell the difference on real-world streets, in real-world corners, and real-world highways, that's good enough for me. Afterall, I'm going to be driving mine on real-world roads 99.99% of the time, not a race track where I can pound a corner doing triple digit speeds. If you can't tell the difference when attacking a corner at 40 or 50MPH, seems like that should be the benchmark it's based off of.

Yes 99.9% time the only things most people can notice is how fast the car can kick start from a stop light, then how fast it can come to a stop at the next light.

But we are supposed to be the few, who can tell other differences

Originally Posted by bmwexecutive

If you can't tell the difference with the most aggressive street driving, what does it matter?

This is an excellent point, if you truly cannot tell it makes no difference.

My experience, however, is that once you experience what a good car can do you can tell even on slow corners and less than at maximum.

The handling of the hybrid will certainly be good, even if it is a tad less than the "standard' F30. My expectation is that those that buy the hybrid will enjoy aspects of the car other than its performance which will more than offset the performance downside.

Originally Posted by bmwexecutive

Precisely. It's entirely possible that it could actually handle better. The extra weight is placed in the best possible spot and could actually contribute to the car's road-holding capability.

No, it's not. No, it couldn't.

Has this car hit the showrooms yet and available for test drives/purchases?

Originally Posted by jw

Has this car hit the showrooms yet and available for test drives/purchases?

Think it will hit showrooms at the end of this month. But ONLY for Central Region BMW dealerships, for some reason. No other region got launch allocation and every ActiveHybrid 3 at every dealer will be exactly the same specs -- clone cars.