X5 35d vs. Porsche Cayenne Diesel

Originally Posted by jashearer

I understand that concept, but I find it hard to believe that dirty fuel (which must pass through the same filter as clean fuel) in the PPM that gets by the rings would result in halving the oil change interval. Maybe the foul fuel results in incomplete combustion which causes more leak by????

Perhaps they are changing out the fuel filters at the same time and that is the reason????

Off-Topic: Anyone know what the fuel filter change interval on the X5 is? I change the one on my truck every other oil change so around 20k miles. I'm also wagering the one on my truck is a LOT bigger then the one of the X5.

Keep the guesses coming.

Jay

Hard to believe but the fuel filter change interval is every 3rd service ( approx 30k ) seems excessive but with the " free maintenance" this doesn't surprise me.

I don't think it is about the fuel having contaminants but instead the quality of the fuel itself. I'd imagine it also has to do with how just some States have higher biodiesel requirements than others.

Some people do not understand the concept of 4.2l V8 diesel... I am one of them. M50d is a bit different story

A fuel filter is a mechanical cleaning. Contaminations can be anything as other liquids etc that a filter will not be able to separate. An oil filter is not a refinery.

Originally Posted by ductman

Hard to believe but the fuel filter change interval is every 3rd service ( approx 30k ) seems excessive but with the " free maintenance" this doesn't surprise me.

I think a 30k interval will be fine, but of course, if you are to keep this longer, why not just do it every 20k.

For example, VW specs 20k replacements on the CRD 2.0TDI cars. Before I sold my '10 Jetta (with 21k miles on it), I watched the dealer pull the filter to replace it. It was spotless. The VW guys mostly do it to check for metal particles (a sign of the fuel system going south), but mint was spotless. I almost always fill up at one BP or Sunoco station, so I think I'm getting decent fuel.

That being said, Porsche speccing 5k is ridiculous, especially if services will cost $300+ EVERY 5k. My mother had an RX for a couple years and the dealer would charge $299 every 5k for their service. Ridiculous

No doubt there is a profit factor in this. Service is a big profit booster for Porsche dealers. Think about it, diesel owners are often high mileage drivers. Say an average of 20k miles a year. It gives $1200 a year or $12000 in 10 years and a whopping $24000 for the normal lifetime of a vehicle, just in oil services. Porsche could spec. different intervals for the locations with poor fuel quality, now you know why they don't.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

I think a 30k interval will be fine, but of course, if you are to keep this longer, why not just do it every 20k.

I replace both the primary and secondary fuel filters on my truck every 15k miles. It is not uncommon though for the water separator alarm to go off in between changes and to need to get drained. Because of that I get a little hesitant trusting a single filter setup with a non serviceable integrated water separator beyond around 20k miles.

Originally Posted by solstice

No doubt there is a profit factor in this. Service is a big profit booster for Porsche dealers. Think about it, diesel owners are often high mileage drivers. Say an average of 20k miles a year. It gives $1200 a year or $12000 in 10 years and a whopping $24000 for the normal lifetime of a vehicle, just in oil services. Porsche could spec. different intervals for the locations with poor fuel quality, now you know why they don't.

I drive 40-45k miles per year. That is across two primary vehicles, I do not track miles on the other ones, but the bulk of the miles driven really are on one vehicle. Outside the cost issue of something that would need service every 5k miles I'd also have issues with the time factor. I guess the upside is I'd be on a first name basis with everyone at the dealership.

It would be interesting to see a scheduled service cost comparison between the diesel and the VR6 over the first 10 years.

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I drive 40-45k miles per year. That is across two primary vehicles, I do not track miles on the other ones, but the bulk of the miles driven really are on one vehicle. Outside the cost issue of something that would need service every 5k miles I'd also have issues with the time factor. I guess the upside is I'd be on a first name basis with everyone at the dealership.

I agree more on the time. You essentially have to put away a whole day for service. Let's not forget that Porsche doesn't warranty brakes, like BMW, so those are also going to be $$$. I know that the Cayenne/Q7/Touareg are notorious for quick brake wear. Before I sold my Q7 (21k miles on it), I was due for brakes in the next 2-3k miles. That would have cost me $1200. Imagine factoring in Porsche markup. (The Q7, Cayenne, Touareg use the same Brembo setup)

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

I agree more on the time. You essentially have to put away a whole day for service. Let's not forget that Porsche doesn't warranty brakes, like BMW, so those are also going to be $$$. I know that the Cayenne/Q7/Touareg are notorious for quick brake wear. Before I sold my Q7 (21k miles on it), I was due for brakes in the next 2-3k miles. That would have cost me $1200. Imagine factoring in Porsche markup. (The Q7, Cayenne, Touareg use the same Brembo setup)

Really it is the time factor more than anything else for me. But thinking back I do not think I ever have used a Porsche dealership for oil changes and brakes and a number of other things. I always just went to independent shops and perhaps that would have bit me had I actually had a problem that the warranty needed to address. At least with the small shops you can avoid some of the massive markup.

Porsche is taking advantage of the pricing power that comes with having highly desirable products, who can really blame them?

Originally Posted by Snipe656

Really it is the time factor more than anything else for me. But thinking back I do not think I ever have used a Porsche dealership for oil changes and brakes and a number of other things. I always just went to independent shops and perhaps that would have bit me had I actually had a problem that the warranty needed to address. At least with the small shops you can avoid some of the massive markup.

Its not legal for Porsche to "bite you" for not using their shop for routine maintenance. I've done my own oil changes on VW and Mercedes - its easy and I know its done right and the filter/oil removal is all done from the top of the engine. Usually the least qualified grease monkey is assigned to do these things at the dealership or garage and often enough over-tightens the drain plug and over-fills the oil from my experience. I also like to buy my own oil for a better price, sometimes of better quality than a dealer uses.

PL

Originally Posted by solstice

Porsche is taking advantage of the pricing power that comes with having highly desirable products, who can really blame them?

I do not blame them one bit but for what ever reason the diesel Cayenne I do not find highly desirable which leaves me closely comparing it to other options. Not saying the Cayenne lacks desire to me, it just is not one of the typical Porsche experiences for me where I drive it and am blown away at what they have done. I actually keep thinking back to the salesmens comments after I drove it and I really think he sold me out of it with his speech about how "getting into a Porsche is getting into a dream" and used that as justification as to why they don't go down on asking prices. That same speech with a 911 definitely would have worked well on helping sell me on the cost because the car already would have sold me on wanting it.

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Its not legal for Porsche to "bite you" for not using their shop for routine maintenance. I've done my own oil changes on VW and Mercedes - its easy and I know its done right and the filter/oil removal is all done from the top of the engine. Usually the least qualified grease monkey is assigned to do these things at the dealership or garage and often enough over-tightens the drain plug and over-fills the oil from my experience. I also like to buy my own oil for a better price, sometimes of better quality than a dealer uses.

PL

I know it is not legal to bite on those things but I do know people who have been bitten by other brands. More so because the people did not keep proper records of the service they did themselves. Sometimes because the people did not use what the service says should be used. Trust me, it is far from a fear at all in my mind but more of just a side comment than anything else.

Originally Posted by UncleJ

Mike, nice review of the Cayenne in AK! I was surprised in your comparison graph you neglected the most obvious competitor the T-egg! To me that would have been the most obvious car since many (not me) consider the Cayenne to be just a tarted up T-egg. Since for MY '13 all the VA(P)G "big" diesels will get the 240 hp stage II engine that should be interesting to see how the two most closely related perform together. Would also like to see how the new Q5 TDI fits into that matrix as well. Thanks for getting the review out there, you are the second one to hit the AK junket so far that I have seen.

The Touareg will still be heavier than the Porsche... I thought about including it, but then left it out as it really does nothing better than the others. Pricing is its only real advantage.

- Mike

Originally Posted by solstice

Porsche is taking advantage of the pricing power that comes with having highly desirable products, who can really blame them?

I can! Greed will bring any business down in the long run. It would be different if there is value and reason for the cost. Porsche is looking at the percentage of naive Porsche owners that buy into this thinking with "high line" private mechanics and parts suppliers and cashing in themselves, as you say.

Porsche is fast becoming the poseur brand where boutique and decorative/nostalgia items go a long way to unobtainable pricing (see the newest mostly cosmetic Speedster). With their literature greatly lacking in recent LeMans wins, they regurgitate the same old same old nostalgia. Magazines on Porsche can only reminisce the great cars and drivers from the original glory days. Their manufacturing history is legendary and that is also repeated ad nauseum. Each generation of car is more complex, expensive, detached, and takes more away from the original source of what the car was meant to be. Buyers are duped into paying more, for example, for less as in the Cayman vs the convertible Boxster. Its sad to see how a Corvette is now better in many ways and how it even compares or is compared to any Porsche, which used to be a "giant killer" with the soul of a VW Beetle but the heart of a Ferdinand Porsche redesign.



PL

Owners of the Cayenne in California, who never put in crappy fuel, can go with extended oil change intervals (as can X5 35d owners who run good fuel - no worries).

Put yourself in Porsche's position, having to warranty ALL engines in all 50 states. What would you do? Take a risk, and chance a headline "Porsche Cayenne Diesel has excessive engine failures" or take the safe route with 5,000 mile intervals?

- Mike

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I know it is not legal to bite on those things but I do know people who have been bitten by other brands. More so because the people did not keep proper records of the service they did themselves. Sometimes because the people did not use what the service says should be used. Trust me, it is far from a fear at all in my mind but more of just a side comment than anything else.

Oil related engine failure is more fiction than side comment.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Oil related engine failure is more fiction than side comment.

PL

It still gets used as an excuse for companies to try and get out of paying for a replacement engine. For example real recently on the MBZ forums I tend to troll on was someone in a GL350BT having an engine failure and MBZ saying they would not replace it because he went over the oil change interval. Ultimately in that example though it got replaced at not cost to him because some non approved additive had been added by the dealership. I know several people who had cratered engines and transmissions in Ford 6.0 PSD trucks and were not warrantied because they failed to track their service that they did and could not prove they did it, of the ones that tried fighting that they got no where.

Do you think that Audi will follow this recommendation, i.e. 5k mile oil change interval? I do not think so... the same engine, the same fuel...

Originally Posted by Emission

Owners of the Cayenne in California, who never put in crappy fuel, can go with extended oil change intervals (as can X5 35d owners who run good fuel - no worries).

Put yourself in Porsche's position, having to warranty ALL engines in all 50 states. What would you do? Take a risk, and chance a headline "Porsche Cayenne Diesel has excessive engine failures" or take the safe route with 5,000 mile intervals?

- Mike

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

I can! Greed will bring any business down in the long run. It would be different if there is value and reason for the cost. Porsche is looking at the percentage of naive Porsche owners that buy into this thinking with "high line" private mechanics and parts suppliers and cashing in themselves, as you say.

Porsche is fast becoming the poseur brand where boutique and decorative/nostalgia items go a long way to unobtainable pricing (see the newest mostly cosmetic Speedster). With their literature greatly lacking in recent LeMans wins, they regurgitate the same old same old nostalgia. Magazines on Porsche can only reminisce the great cars and drivers from the original glory days. Their manufacturing history is legendary and that is also repeated ad nauseum. Each generation of car is more complex, expensive, detached, and takes more away from the original source of what the car was meant to be. Buyers are duped into paying more, for example, for less as in the Cayman vs the convertible Boxster. Its sad to see how a Corvette is now better in many ways and how it even compares or is compared to any Porsche, which used to be a "giant killer" with the soul of a VW Beetle but the heart of a Ferdinand Porsche redesign.



PL

But Porsche delivers. Its products get better and better...

Yesterday, someone from Porsche took me on high lap on the Nurburgring (I met Sabine while standing at the track entrance!) in a bone-stock '12 Carrera S. We FLEW around the circuit, leaving a pack of GT3 models in our wake. Crazy as it sounds, the '12 Carrera S is faster around the 'Ring than the '11 GT3!

The second-generation Cayenne is light years better than its predecessor... as is the Boxster and will be the Cayman.

Of course many Porsche owners are tools and pricks, but the product is very good.

- Mike

Originally Posted by Emission

Owners of the Cayenne in California, who never put in crappy fuel, can go with extended oil change intervals (as can X5 35d owners who run good fuel - no worries).

Put yourself in Porsche's position, having to warranty ALL engines in all 50 states. What would you do? Take a risk, and chance a headline "Porsche Cayenne Diesel has excessive engine failures" or take the safe route with 5,000 mile intervals?

- Mike

My thinking is more akin to Porsche's record of coming up with engines that actually do have design defects that cause catastrophic failures, including the first Cayenne with its plastic intake manifold cracking, 1999-2008 Boxster/911 engines with their intermediate shaft disintegration, earlier versions with cylinder head liner failures, earlier air cooled engines with serious valve guide wear problems, etc.

Maybe they are just being careful given customers will be "racing" these trucks. Mercedes had similar problems with their 2003-2004 E-Class drivetrain/brake components where well heeled customers with leases and warranties treated their cars more like racers than European customers usually do and had a lot of complaints/reliability issues. So they may be converting automatically to the "heavy use" guideline for oil changes.

PL

Originally Posted by Emission

But Porsche delivers. Its products get better and better...

Yesterday, someone from Porsche took me on high lap on the Nurburgring (I met Sabine while standing at the track entrance!) in a bone-stock '12 Carrera S. We FLEW around the circuit, leaving a pack of GT3 models in our wake. Crazy as it sounds, the '12 Carrera S is faster around the 'Ring than the '11 GT3!

The second-generation Cayenne is light years better than its predecessor... as is the Boxster and will be the Cayman.

Of course many Porsche owners are tools and pricks, but the product is very good.

- Mike

True. They are going into Ferrari territory as a "bargain priced" performance offering, often being superior. Lets see if they succeed by abandoning the lower priced market, a place that made their company much financial strength in the past (356, 912, 944, original Boxster).

They have made a decision to go upmarket leaving us non-poseur middle class tools and pricks behind.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

I can! Greed will bring any business down in the long run. It would be different if there is value and reason for the cost. Porsche is looking at the percentage of naive Porsche owners that buy into this thinking with "high line" private mechanics and parts suppliers and cashing in themselves, as you say.

Porsche is fast becoming the poseur brand where boutique and decorative/nostalgia items go a long way to unobtainable pricing (see the newest mostly cosmetic Speedster). With their literature greatly lacking in recent LeMans wins, they regurgitate the same old same old nostalgia. Magazines on Porsche can only reminisce the great cars and drivers from the original glory days. Their manufacturing history is legendary and that is also repeated ad nauseum. Each generation of car is more complex, expensive, detached, and takes more away from the original source of what the car was meant to be. Buyers are duped into paying more, for example, for less as in the Cayman vs the convertible Boxster. Its sad to see how a Corvette is now better in many ways and how it even compares or is compared to any Porsche, which used to be a "giant killer" with the soul of a VW Beetle but the heart of a Ferdinand Porsche redesign.PL

While I agree with the logic I don't see it apply to today's Porsche. I'm originally from Europe ( Sweden ) and I remember well the time when Porsche did water out their brand until it almost killed them. The time of the 924, 944 and to some extent the 928. It was crappy cars and it soiled the Porsche name. Porsche learnt the lesson and went back to only making the 911 and hone it to perfection until the brand was stronger than ever. Today every car they make is best in class and a hoot to drive. I don't see much risk to brand damage. Especially since it seems BMW is leaving the sports/luxury segment to pursue the pure luxury segment expect for the M cars. Porsche now owns it with no real competition.