X5 35d vs. Porsche Cayenne Diesel

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

My thinking is more akin to Porsche's record of coming up with engines that actually do have design defects that cause catastrophic failures, including the first Cayenne with its plastic intake manifold cracking, 1999-2008 Boxster/911 engines with their intermediate shaft disintegration, earlier versions with cylinder head liner failures, earlier air cooled engines with serious valve guide wear problems, etc.

Maybe they are just being careful given customers will be "racing" these trucks. Mercedes had similar problems with their 2003-2004 E-Class drivetrain/brake components where well heeled customers with leases and warranties treated their cars more like racers than European customers usually do and had a lot of complaints/reliability issues. So they may be converting automatically to the "heavy use" guideline for oil changes.

PL

Any automaker who pushes the engineering boundaries will have issues (e.g., BMW's N54 engine).

Furthermore, Porsche is no more guilty than Aston Martin, Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Maserati, or any other premium brand of charging huge markups. Common practice these days, even with BMW.

- Mike

Originally Posted by Emission

Any automaker who pushes the engineering boundaries will have issues (e.g., BMW's N54 engine).

Furthermore, Porsche is no more guilty than Aston Martin, Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Maserati, or any other premium brand of charging huge markups. Common practice these days, even with BMW.

- Mike

No, BMW keeps its bread and butter sporty and relevant: the 3 series. When that is "watered down" and becomes like everyman's Camry, it may cause problems for BMW. I have no problem with the higher end cars if they provide value, but Porsche was different in their simplicity and scale. They did not compete with the likes of Corvette and were not considered drag racers as they seem to be more so now.

Sure, its fun to go fast, for a time. Where will you go? It reminds me of 1989 when the first Miata came out. Porsche Club members were aghast that their beloved brand didn't have an answer to this amazing little car. Many just went out and bought one even if their huge carcass couldn't fit. It was a true drivers' car. Some joked and put a Porsche badge on the Miata. The true glory days of Porsche are gone. What we have are rich poseurs driving their racing machines on clogged roads at a fraction of the speeds. Not driving a smaller displacement (not a Corvette!) engined car at 9/10ths which a Miata allowed you to do, and the 3 series still does. Unless you own a track in the US, Porsche = expensive, poseur, Boring in reality.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

No, BMW keeps its bread and butter sporty and relevant: the 3 series. When that is "watered down" and becomes like everyman's Camry, it may cause problems for BMW. I have no problem with the higher end cars if they provide value, but Porsche was different in their simplicity and scale. They did not compete with the likes of Corvette and were not considered drag racers as they seem to be more so now.

Sure, its fun to go fast, for a time. Where will you go? It reminds me of 1989 when the first Miata came out. Porsche Club members were aghast that their beloved brand didn't have an answer to this amazing little car. Many just went out and bought one even if their huge carcass couldn't fit. It was a true drivers' car. Some joked and put a Porsche badge on the Miata. The true glory days of Porsche are gone. What we have are rich poseurs driving their racing machines on clogged roads at a fraction of the speeds. Not driving a smaller displacement (not a Corvette!) engined car at 9/10ths which a Miata allowed you to do, and the 3 series still does. Unless you own a track in the US, Porsche = expensive, poseur, Boring in reality.

PL

Aren't you forgetting the GT3s and the Cayman? If they used to have one drivers car they now have at least two. They are not drag racers like a Corvette but pure sports cars true to the concept. BMW have nothing that compares to the raw communicative experience of these cars.

Originally Posted by solstice

While I agree with the logic I don't see it apply to today's Porsche. I'm originally from Europe ( Sweden ) and I remember well the time when Porsche did water out their brand until it almost killed them. The time of the 924, 944 and to some extent the 928. It was crappy cars and it soiled the Porsche name. Porsche learnt the lesson and went back to only making the 911 and hone it to perfection until the brand was stronger than ever. Today every car they make is best in class and a hoot to drive. I don't see much risk to brand damage. Especially since it seems BMW is leaving the sports/luxury segment to pursue the pure luxury segment expect for the M cars. Porsche now owns it with no real competition.

The 928 is still considered a great car in Porsche circles. It failed precisely because it was too expensive to buy and service, which is where Porsche is going today. It also failed because it faced a worldwide recession and lack of well heeled customer base at the time. All high end car-makers except BMW had great difficulties during those years. BMW had the "low end" cars to keep them going. This actually supports my argument.

The 944 was a blockbuster car at a great price/performance point but lacked the simplicity of earlier cars for cost of maintenance. Again, Porsche is going far away from this in their complexity and lack of owner-friendly maintenance.

Both the 944 and 928 are considered very reliable when properly maintained, with only defective head gaskets in some, which was an industry-wide problem at the time that is now fixed with special honing of the aluminum-cast iron interface.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

"Sure, its fun to go fast, for a time. Where will you go? It reminds me of 1989 when the first Miata came out. Porsche Club members were aghast that their beloved brand didn't have an answer to this amazing little car. Many just went out and bought one even if their huge carcass couldn't fit. It was a true drivers' car. Some joked and put a Porsche badge on the Miata. The true glory days of Porsche are gone."

I'll respectfully disagree.

Many Porsche (and BMW) owners track their vehicles, and I appreciate each automaker keeping this in mind when they engineer future product.

Few of us use the off-road capabilities of our X5 models (hell, those of us in SoCa could get by with a RWD X5 on summer tires!), but it is nice to know it is there in reserve.

- Mike

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

The 928 is still considered a great car in Porsche circles. It failed precisely because it was too expensive to buy and service, which is where Porsche is going today. It also failed because it faced a worldwide recession and lack of well heeled customer base at the time.

Well it did last 17 model years or so, but as a previous 928 owner(I owned a couple actually) either Porsche circles have changed in recent years or the circles you hang around are very different than the ones I was in. Because only people who considered it a great car were the ones who owned it. It got a lot of hate from other Porsche model owners back when I used to be involved in such circles. A good friend of mine had a 944 back then and it tended to be worse in the circles, he might as well showed up to any club events in a Porsche tractor to then really piss off those people.

As far as Porsches and tracking. I sure do to this day run into a lot of people who own the newish coupe models and routinely track them. It also is not uncommon for me to see guys in fairly new ones with roll cages and stickers on the side of them. Perhaps the guys on the street with cages and stickers do not actually race them and just want to look like they are driving a race car.

Originally Posted by solstice

Aren't you forgetting the GT3s and the Cayman? If they used to have one drivers car they now have at least two. They are not drag racers like a Corvette but pure sports cars true to the concept. BMW have nothing that compares to the raw communicative experience of these cars.

My 335d Sport Package begs to differ, at $15,000 less than a similar Cayman.

I remember when my 1991 318is used to go faster on country roads than my 1988 Carerra 3.2 with modified Lime Rock aligned sport suspension, just because it was more of a pure drivers' car! Sorry, the new Corvette is just maybe more sporty per $$$ than what amounts to a high performance technical marvel we call Porsche nowadays.

Just because you have better/higher numbers and expensive driver aids doesn't make the driving experience necessarily better.

PL

Originally Posted by Snipe656

Well it did last 17 model years or so, but as a previous 928 owner(I owned a couple actually) either Porsche circles have changed in recent years or the circles you hang around are very different than the ones I was in. Because only people who considered it a great car were the ones who owned it. It got a lot of hate from other Porsche model owners back when I used to be involved in such circles. A good friend of mine had a 944 back then and it tended to be worse in the circles, he might as well showed up to any club events in a Porsche tractor to then really piss off those people.

As far as Porsches and tracking. I sure do to this day run into a lot of people who own the newish coupe models and routinely track them. It also is not uncommon for me to see guys in fairly new ones with roll cages and stickers on the side of them. Perhaps the guys on the street with cages and stickers do not actually race them and just want to look like they are driving a race car.

I have no trouble with people racing their Porsches. I'm talking about the "typical" Porsche customer at the dealer. Usually, racers buy used anyway.

The front engined water cooled Porsches were shunned by the purists, yes, but they were still considered fabulous handling, reliable cars.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

The 928 is still considered a great car in Porsche circles. It failed precisely because it was too expensive to buy and service, which is where Porsche is going today. It also failed because it faced a worldwide recession and lack of well heeled customer base at the time. All high end car-makers except BMW had great difficulties during those years. BMW had the "low end" cars to keep them going. This actually supports my argument.

The 944 was a blockbuster car at a great price/performance point but lacked the simplicity of earlier cars for cost of maintenance. Again, Porsche is going far away from this in their complexity and lack of owner-friendly maintenance.

PL

I disagree with most of that but only time will tell.

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

My 335d Sport Package begs to differ, at $15,000 less than a similar Cayman.

I remember when my 1991 318is used to go faster on country roads than my 1988 Carerra 3.2 with modified Lime Rock aligned sport suspension, just because it was more of a pure drivers' car! Sorry, the new Corvette is just maybe more sporty per $$$ than what amounts to a high performance technical marvel we call Porsche nowadays.

Just because you have better/higher numbers and expensive driver aids doesn't make the driving experience necessarily better.

PL

Then your 335d is much more car than my M3. The M3 is very, very good but my friends Cayman S definitely provides a more pure driving experience. Nothing to do with speed or capabilities just the pure driving experience. We must experience cars very differently.

Originally Posted by solstice

I disagree with most of that but only time will tell.

The market for Porsches was always different in Europe. You would need to go over the last 30 years of American literature perhaps to see how these cars were viewed and how they fared in sales.

In 1989 or thereabouts, BMW was the only luxury automaker to make a profit in the US. They did align themselves with Mercedes in pricing even though their quality was not up to Mercedes standards, so maybe that is what gave them the financial edge.

A good source for Porsche information is the magazine Excellence where a long time Porsche guru Bruce Anderson chronicles the history of each model.

PL

Originally Posted by solstice

Then your 335d is much more car than my M3. The M3 is very, very good but my friends Cayman S definitely provides a more pure driving experience. Nothing to do with speed or capabilities just the pure driving experience. We must experience cars very differently.

I would love to get a Ferrari as a daily driver, but the point is how much of a track car will you tolerate on what kind of budget, and how much of the "track-worthiness" will you be using in today's traffic.

A 335d is clearly not a car to ignore in daily driving with 425 ft-lbs of "instant" torque. A Cayman S and M3 are also great cars, but I wasn't comparing whose was better.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

I would love to get a Ferrari as a daily driver, but the point is how much of a track car will you tolerate on what kind of budget, and how much of the "track-worthiness" will you be using in today's traffic.

A 335d is clearly not a car to ignore in daily driving with 425 ft-lbs of "instant" torque. A Cayman S and M3 are also great cars, but I wasn't comparing whose was better.

PL

Sorry but that makes no sense. You attacked Porsche for making Corvette like muscle/drag cars and straying from being pure sports cars. I then brought up the GT3 and Cayman and now you are complaining that they are pure sports cars for the track without daily drive utility like a diesel sedan? Well then you have the regular 911 that provides plenty of daily comfort but is slightly less pure but more sports car than the ( excellent by the way ) 335d. I think you are complaining about the wrong company. It's the F-series BMWs that is all what you complain about Porsche. They are numb, isolated, heavy, luxury cars far from the ultimate driving machines the E-series were.

Originally Posted by Emission

I'll respectfully disagree.

Many Porsche (and BMW) owners track their vehicles, and I appreciate each automaker keeping this in mind when they engineer future product.

Few of us use the off-road capabilities of our X5 models (hell, those of us in SoCa could get by with a RWD X5 on summer tires!), but it is nice to know it is there in reserve.

- Mike

Yes, but Spec Miata is the largest and fastest growing class in SCCA Club Racing! So getting a Porsche is not necessarily the only way to get your "track like sports car driving experience."

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Yes, but Spec Miata is the largest and fastest growing class in SCCA Club Racing! So getting a Porsche is not necessarily the only way to get your "track like sports car driving experience."

PL

I remember sitting at an independent Porsche shop years ago and guys there griping about Golf GTIs and how well they performed at the track but at a fraction of the cost to get. There will always be something else that people might find a better value for their dollar to their end goal. Heck I know people who love to race their Neons at club events. I personally like having the variety to pick from and have zero beef with the Porsche selections even though I would never buy most due to cost and what I am willing to pay to play.

Originally Posted by solstice

Sorry but that makes no sense. You attacked Porsche for making Corvette like muscle/drag cars and straying from being pure sports cars. I then brought up the GT3 and Cayman and now you are complaining that they are pure sports cars for the track without daily drive utility like a diesel sedan? Well then you have the regular 911 that provides plenty of daily comfort but is slightly less pure but more sports car than the ( excellent by the way ) 335d. I think you are complaining about the wrong company. It's the F-series BMWs that is all what you complain about Porsche. They are numb, isolated, heavy, luxury cars far from the ultimate driving machines the E-series were.

The 928 was also such a car, and the argument was not how sporty but how much expense and performance was needed to satisfy those interested in track like performance when a much simpler solution with less "luxury" was affordable by many more with less of a boutique/poseur posture.

Agreed, the new F30 may need a bit of tweaking to satisfy those of us interested in pure road cars, not necessarily track oriented racers.

The majority of traditional Porsche buyers find more than Corvette-like performance or ego boosting manliness in their cars I believe. Mercedes-like quality, Bugatti-like bodywork, and VW-like practicality with half the cost of the Italian exotics at nearly the same high performance is what they are known for. Where they are going is not really that much different but seems to be lacking in their tradition of paying attention to the lower end of this market. I believe it is at their peril.

PL

Originally Posted by Snipe656

I remember sitting at an independent Porsche shop years ago and guys there griping about Golf GTIs and how well they performed at the track but at a fraction of the cost to get. There will always be something else that people might find a better value for their dollar to their end goal. Heck I know people who love to race their Neons at club events. I personally like having the variety to pick from and have zero beef with the Porsche selections even though I would never buy most due to cost and what I am willing to pay to play.

There is no comparison between the driving experience of a Miata and that of a Neon or Golf. None.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

There is no comparison between the driving experience of a Miata and that of a Neon or Golf. None.

PL

The point I was trying to make is different people like different things. Yet they often use the same descriptor words/phrases. You can have someone with a Neon say it is the best track driving experience for the money then have someone with a Miata say that about their car and then someone with a Golf say it about theirs and then someone with a GT3 say it about theirs. I am no rocket scientist but I am just going to guess each one of those cars cost the owners very different amounts of money to get and none of them drive all that close to the same as the others.

Arguably, a new Boxster in base form is a "bargain" at $50,000. I hazard a guess the "stripped" model would be hard to find and even harder to justify at that price. Perhaps that is their way of throwing a bone to us mere mortals along with the "base" Cayenne.

PL

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Yes, but Spec Miata is the largest and fastest growing class in SCCA Club Racing! So getting a Porsche is not necessarily the only way to get your "track like sports car driving experience."

PL

I prefer Spec Boxster (I've owned one -- third pic down is my old car and record). Just a few thousand more to get in, with a much better overall vehicle.

- Mike

Originally Posted by Pierre Louis

Arguably, a new Boxster in base form is a "bargain" at $50,000. I hazard a guess the "stripped" model would be hard to find and even harder to justify at that price. Perhaps that is their way of throwing a bone to us mere mortals along with the "base" Cayenne.

PL

When Porsche is now firmly in bed with VW, Audi and all other V.A.G brands I think we can forget budget Porsches. It would make little sense for V.A.G to position a Porsche at the same level as for example a VW. It's a high-end brand that generates high profit margins and it seems that they sell to capacity. Your best hope for a simple cheap Miata like Porsche is that V.A.G decides to build a low-end Cayman with something like the groups 2.0T engine branded as a VW. It could happen I guess.

Originally Posted by solstice

When Porsche is now firmly in bed with VW, Audi and all other V.A.G brands I think we can forget budget Porsches. It would make little sense for V.A.G to position a Porsche at the same level as for example a VW. It's a high-end brand that generates high profit margins and it seems that they sell to capacity. Your best hope for a simple cheap Miata like Porsche is that V.A.G decides to build a low-end Cayman with something like the groups 2.0T engine branded as a VW. It could happen I guess.

There was a car they nixed that was below the Boxster, chassis to be shared with VW and Audi, but they probably thought this "new 550 Spyder" would cannibalize Boxster sales.

As you said, we shall see. The market for smallish sports cars is truly limited and Porsche is correct in trying to find the "sweet spot." I just think what they are doing with their dealers, customers, service, and marketing is going to decrease their success in the long run.

PL

Wow, this thread just went downhill. Porsche hater trying to bring up his 335d. I love it

This was EXACTLY what I was trying to avoid.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Wow, this thread just went downhill. Porsche hater trying to bring up his 335d. I love it

This was EXACTLY what I was trying to avoid.

Speak for yourself. I'm a Porsche critic. If you don't like an opinion, don't cop out and call it hate.

Sorry for the thread change, but discussing the strategy of a car company is part of it.

PL

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

Wow, this thread just went downhill. Porsche hater trying to bring up his 335d. I love it

This was EXACTLY what I was trying to avoid.

This thread is ALL OVER the place. However, it is nice to see everyone being so civil.

*** EDIT - I spoke too soon! ***

- Mike