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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #601  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:21 PM
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AutoUnion AutoUnion is offline
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Originally Posted by 550isport View Post
MSRPs dont tell the whole story. BMWs come with MUCH more standard equipment Which means Cayenne MSRP + $14,000 in options = BMW X5/6

Next, little or no incentives from Porsche, mediocre lease rates and residuals and rather high (but typically infrequent) service costs.
Agreed. BMW is a better value, but BMW is also guilty of this ridiculous nickel-diming. No reason why heated seats, leather, power-folding mirrors, bluetooth, etc should be optional extras on a $50k+ luxury car. The VW Touareg offers all that standard. Porsche gets away with that because you can truly tailor your car to exactly how you want it.

Of course, even with Porsche's mediocre leases, a Cayenne holds its value better than the X5 because it's less popular. It's easy to get a good discount on a X5, Cayenne? Hell no.

I honestly think that the price premium is worth every penny for the Porsche, if you can afford it.

Last edited by AutoUnion; 01-03-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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  #602  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
The only thing that ticks me off about the Cayenne, is
a) there is absolutely zero price negotiations (expected I guess)
b) Maintenance costs are quite a hefty amount every few thousand miles
c) The cargo capacity in the back is limiting (again this is probably expected as Porsche is known for high performance and not huge cargo capacity)
This is false. Just like the Audi Q7, it calls for a service at 5k and then every 10k after that.

This is where it gets confusing because the Touareg has an identical engine and calls for service every 10k regardless. (VW is footing the bill for the first couple services though )
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  #603  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The X5 is equal to the Cayenne until you get some extended seat time in the Cayenne. It is in another class when it comes to quality feel in pretty much everything. It feels like a $100k vehicle which I guess it has to taken the cost of the V8 models and the strength and image of the brand it has to live up to. It costs a lot but I have to admit that after having now driven it for ~500 miles our V6 feels like a bargain at just north of $60k. It feels like a higher quality car than anything in BMWs model range including the 7-series. I would say it's not a fair competitor to the X5 on price or actual quality feel. It is in another league which the price indicates.

I'm not saying that it's faster or handles better or is more fun to drive. All of that is debatable and up to preferences and options but the Cayenne has a feel of impeccable engineering and quality that the X5 can't match.
I think this statement is spot-on. I used to think the "Porsche tax" was ridiculous until I got extended seat-time in a Cayenne. Everything feels like it belongs in a higher class. I'm even comparing it to my old Audi Q7 and we all know Audi is king when it comes to fit/finish, interiors. All the switchgear has a solid, expensive feel to it. This might come off as weird to some people, but even the power seat adjustment switches felt like they were made of metal (not 100% sure), compared to the cheap plastic of the X5.

There's a reason why it costs so much and it's not just because Porsche is laughing all the way to the bank. They have spent the $$$ towards producing a world class product and it shows.
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  #604  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
550isport, well said though the quality feel spans everything not just the ride. The paint, the materials, the smooth hefty feel of moving parts as doors, the fit and finish, the cabin ambience etc, etc. It's in no way a 911 but it is also not a Mercedes. It's a luxury SUV with precision handling, way more so than any Mercedes. It's also relatively light at 4400 lbs which is comparable with an X-drive 5-series. The X5 feels slightly sportier but for an SUV, especially my wife's SUV the Cayenne is hard to beat and should be on your short list if it's within your price range. Especially if you are buying since it also holds value redicolously well. Never mind the brand, the Cayenne is simply a very well rounded and impeccably engineered vehicle on it's own. The E70 X5 is a superb SUV as well but it feels lower grade than the Cayenne with or without the crest.
I'll agree to these statements. The X5 and the Cayenne are the benchmarks in this class, but the Cayenne is def. at the top. No competition when it comes to overall feel and quality.
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  #605  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by georgejm View Post
Ordered a Porsche diesel last week for the wife. Keeping the X5 because I smile every time I get in it. We thought it would be kind of silly to have tow of the same so decided to give the Porsche a run.


.Cayenne Diesel 92A AV1 Price
BASE Cayenne Diesel 55,750.00
9Q Meteor Grey Metallic 790.00
9Q Meteor Grey Metallic 0.00
MA Standard Interior in Black 0.00
EXT TPMS 0.00
QJ4 ExteriorPackageHigh-glossBlack 150.00
1D6 Trailer Hitch w/o Ball 650.00
1N3 Power Steering Plus 0.00
2ZH Heated3-spokeMultifuncSW 0.00
4F6 Porsche Entry & Drive 1,090.00
9JB Smoker package 0.00
6GH WheelArchExtensions-ExtrColor 1,150.00
C8K 19" Cayenne Turbo Wheel 1,950.00
1BK AirSusp-Selflvl&HeightAdj-PASM 3,965.00
3FU Panorama Roof System 1,850.00
PE5 14-way Power Seats-Memory Pkg 0.00
Q2J 14-way Power Seats-Memory Pkg 0.00
2C4 Memory Package for Electric St 0.00
3PN Memory Package for Electricall 0.00
PU3 Premium Package Plus 10,180.00
3Y8 ElecRollupSunblindRearSideWind 0.00
4A4 Heated Seats Front and Rear 0.00
4D3 Seat Ventilation Front 0.00
4L6 Auto Dimming Interior Rearview 0.00
6XT Automatically Dimming Exterior 0.00
7B6 12-Volt Outlet in Rear Center 0.00
7T1 PCM with Navigation Module 0.00
7X8 ReverCamera-ParkAssisFrontRear 0.00
7Y1 Lane Change Assist (LCA) 0.00
8EA Bi-Xenon(TM) Headlights w/PDLS 0.00
9MB Dimmable Interior LED Lighting 0.00
PU6 Bose(R) Audio Package 2,160.00
QV4 SiriusXM(TM) Sat Radio Rcvr 0.00
7D7 Six-Disc Changer 0.00
9VL BOSE(R) Surround Sound System 0.00
UN1 Online Services 210.00
----------------------
Total with Options $ 79,895.00

Meteor Gray with Black interior, may add roof rails.
Awesome! Congrats! Can't wait to hear your comparisons between the two.

I built one the way I'd order it and it was about $72k. I added the Premium Plus Pkg, Bose, Online Services, and the Adaptive sport seats (worth every penny). I have to say that building a Porsche online is the most confusing thing ever.

If all goes well, I'll probably end up EDing a Porsche Cayenne TDI in a few years
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  #606  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:34 AM
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Can someone explain to me some of these options on Porsche's website?

1) Why are all the seat options "partial leather?" Does Porsche not cover the whole thing with leather?

2) The leather interior markup is about $3,6XX. Does that include just leather on the dash? (If so, that's ridiculous)

3) no 4-zone climate control for the diesel?

4) What is Power Steering Plus? Is it like BMW Adaptive Steering or Audi servotronic?

5) What is the difference between CDR Plus and PCM?

6) WTF is the telephone module?

7) Is Burnmester really worth the markup?
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  #607  
Old 01-04-2013, 08:36 AM
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I believe that the "standard" leather seating consists of leather on the seating surfaces and vinyl on the sides and back. That is consistant with most cars that I have seen, very few have the whole seatcover in leather -- although that is really the best way and probably what the more expensive leather option gives you. I will have to check this out at the Porsche store.
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  #608  
Old 01-04-2013, 08:59 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Can someone explain to me some of these options on Porsche's website?

1) Why are all the seat options "partial leather?" Does Porsche not cover the whole thing with leather?

2) The leather interior markup is about $3,6XX. Does that include just leather on the dash? (If so, that's ridiculous)

3) no 4-zone climate control for the diesel?

4) What is Power Steering Plus? Is it like BMW Adaptive Steering or Audi servotronic?

5) What is the difference between CDR Plus and PCM?

6) WTF is the telephone module?

7) Is Burnmester really worth the markup?
Rennlist members would know better but I can make some qualified guesses.

1. No, I think it's just the perforated seating surface that is leather.
2. The dash is huge... Seriously I don't know all that is covered but it includes the dash and the full seats and likely the doors as well.
3. I don't know.
4. It's Servotronic, it makes the steering feather light at low speeds. The standard steering is already quite light. I do not like it and went with standard steering.
5. I think CDR plus is the audio system included in PCM.
6. Not sure but I think it's a built in cell phone, so if you get an extra SIM card to your cell subscription the car becomes an expensive cell phone. Kind of stone age after Bluetooth was introduced. Maybe there is use case for fleet vehicles or chauffeured cars?
7. It's very good but I think it's a bit too expensive even if it's probably worth it. We went with Bose which is ok but not great.

Buying these cars is truly painful but driving them make up for it IMO.

Last edited by solstice; 01-04-2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  #609  
Old 01-04-2013, 09:21 AM
georgejm georgejm is online now
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Also on diesel no start/stop which is good.
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  #610  
Old 01-04-2013, 09:25 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Also on diesel no start/stop which is good.
Start/Stop is not an issue on the Cayenne since it works the same as on my M3, switch it off and it remains off until you manually switch it on again ( which is never ).
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  #611  
Old 01-04-2013, 09:29 AM
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Start/Stop is not an issue on the Cayenne since it works the same as on my M3, switch it off and it remains off until you manually switch it on again ( which is never ).
I thought BMW was going to this method of control for all their cars, read that on the 3 forum at least but it could be someone just misinformed too. I think Porsche has always made this feature, in the cars that have it, as something you have to turn on to actually use. I recall when the Panamera came out that Porsche unsuccessfully fought the EPA fuel economy ratings because they would not rate the car using the start/stop feature since that feature is not engaged by default.
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  #612  
Old 01-04-2013, 10:00 AM
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I thought BMW was going to this method of control for all their cars, read that on the 3 forum at least but it could be someone just misinformed too.
When Auto-stop-start came out, you couldn't leave it off. It would revert back to on when you start the car up. Recently, BMW is allowing it to stay programmed off/on. There was a TSB put out. (It's in the F10 section, if you wanna take a look)
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  #613  
Old 01-04-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Rennlist members would know better but I can make some qualified guesses.
Once I start getting more serious on my Cayenne hunt, I'll probably sign up. I've been lurking. Not too many owners with newer Cayennes though.

You should post up pics of your Cayenne

and how's PCM, compared to iDrive? I've only briefly used it.
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  #614  
Old 01-04-2013, 11:37 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Once I start getting more serious on my Cayenne hunt, I'll probably sign up. I've been lurking. Not too many owners with newer Cayennes though.

You should post up pics of your Cayenne

and how's PCM, compared to iDrive? I've only briefly used it.
Yeah, I haven't signed up myself. Tried once but there was some issues with the account creation. I have a bit of internet privacy paranoia and never post pictures of my belongings or family, I might get over it some day but for now, no go.

I have used I-drive for six years so there is still some learning curve to PCM but at this stage I'll say that I-drive is the better system but it can just be that I know it better. The nav has been accurate and the gauge with information in the instrument cluster is a nice and useful additon to what I-drive has. All in all it's to early to give a verdict. I-drive feels and looks simpler.

Last edited by solstice; 01-04-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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  #615  
Old 01-04-2013, 12:49 PM
550isport 550isport is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I-drive feels and looks simpler.
Everything in PCM is menus and sub menus. The multifunction wheel really helps IMHO.

Imagine, the panamera has even more "beautiful" buttons!

Congrats on the Cayenne. Good job selecting the air suspension and PASM. I drove a 2011' base Cayenne V6 stick with spyder 20 inch wheels - which a friend later bought. Good torque. Smooth ride. But rather top heavy during highway lane changes. Your suspension options will cure that. I drove a Panamera V6 without PASM or air suspension but with 20 inch wheels and it was a little soft at higher speeds as well. Too much tire for the base suspension(s) perhaps.

After posting on several boards and getting similar responses on both BMW and Porsche forums, I'm starting to doubt myself on the X5 vs. Cayenne debate. I was convinced those who emphatically preferred the Cayenne were just drinking the Kool Aid. But now I don't know. I think it may be that I put an abnormally high priority on suspension stiffness and tech (like idrive, heads up display, a website that tracks production of new vehicles and accepts online payments etc...). A friend just picked up a 2005 Cayenne Turbo S with 85,000 miles for $18K (2nd motor). Even with 500+hp it's ride and handling particularly reinforce my preference for BMW.

To each his own...

Happy New Year,
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Last edited by 550isport; 01-04-2013 at 12:59 PM.
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  #616  
Old 01-04-2013, 01:53 PM
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1HOT BMR 1HOT BMR is offline
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Originally Posted by 550isport View Post
Everything in PCM is menus and sub menus. The multifunction wheel really helps IMHO.

Imagine, the panamera has even more "beautiful" buttons!

Congrats on the Cayenne. Good job selecting the air suspension and PASM. I drove a 2011' base Cayenne V6 stick with spyder 20 inch wheels - which a friend later bought. Good torque. Smooth ride. But rather top heavy during highway lane changes. Your suspension options will cure that. I drove a Panamera V6 without PASM or air suspension but with 20 inch wheels and it was a little soft at higher speeds as well. Too much tire for the base suspension(s) perhaps.

After posting on several boards and getting similar responses on both BMW and Porsche forums, I'm starting to doubt myself on the X5 vs. Cayenne debate. I was convinced those who emphatically preferred the Cayenne were just drinking the Kool Aid. But now I don't know. I think it may be that I put an abnormally high priority on suspension stiffness and tech (like idrive, heads up display, a website that tracks production of new vehicles and accepts online payments etc...). A friend just picked up a 2005 Cayenne Turbo S with 85,000 miles for $18K (2nd motor). Even with 500+hp it's ride and handling particularly reinforce my preference for BMW.

To each his own...

Happy New Year,
DRP
I also prefer the X5 over the Cayenne. I drove one with a V6 a couple of years ago and I thought "it's just OK but perhaps it needs the right options (suspension) to feel better". Just a short while ago I read so many great things about the 2013 Cayenne GTS that I went and drove one. What a disappointment This one was fairly well equipped ($100K+ sticker) and it had no torque compared to my 550i - no pull until the revs climbed. The steering felt like an overboosted power steering so perhaps it had the option that makes it extra light at low speeds. I don't know - it also leaned a lot when cornering and the ride was not nearly as good as my X5 with AD and non-run flat tires - the interior is the only thing I liked. One thing is clear to me now, I will not be buying a Cayenne of any type in the near future BTW, when I asked about the voice commands to activate the Navigation the salesman told me that voice command is EXTRA!
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  #617  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:59 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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I think Porsche offers options to cure most of the handling and power concerns here. The Turbo should match a 550 and when you add Porsche's ars system body roll is likely gone. It will be pricey but the options are there. We did not buy ours to be a sports car substitute so I never really investigated those options. We have the base suspension since we are thinking of keeping it for 10-15 years and want less potential failure sources. There is definately some body roll when you hustle it in sharp turns but for our usage it's a total non issue since it never feels unsafe and on the hwy I never felt any roll sensation, maybe I don't change lanes violently enough... That said if it was my personal commuter I would have wanted the active roll bars. The more power and options you want the larger the gap between the two and if you want a sports car substitute the Cayenne will seriously hurt your wallet but if you want an upscale quality SUV with better handling than all but the X5 a modestly optioned Cayenne truly feels like a bargain for the upscale feel it delivers. We absolutely love ours, it's much more than we expected and just about perfect for us.

Last edited by solstice; 01-04-2013 at 03:01 PM.
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  #618  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 1HOT BMR View Post
I also prefer the X5 over the Cayenne. I drove one with a V6 a couple of years ago and I thought "it's just OK but perhaps it needs the right options (suspension) to feel better". Just a short while ago I read so many great things about the 2013 Cayenne GTS that I went and drove one. What a disappointment This one was fairly well equipped ($100K+ sticker) and it had no torque compared to my 550i - no pull until the revs climbed. The steering felt like an overboosted power steering so perhaps it had the option that makes it extra light at low speeds.
Color me shocked. NA V8 only making power at higher RPMs, while a twin-turbo V8 has power everywhere in the torque curve
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  #619  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:36 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Color me shocked. NA V8 only making power at higher RPMs, while a twin-turbo V8 has power everywhere in the torque curve
Yeah, the N20 probably pulls harder than Alonso's F1 Ferrari from the bottom until the N20 run out of revs...
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  #620  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:51 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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It all comes back to the fact that the Cayenne is a much pricier car. Maybe close to 50% pricier with comparable options out of the door. Is it worth it? Who can say but it definately feels a level or two higher on the scale and if you can afford it worth is a fuzzy concept..

Last edited by solstice; 01-04-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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  #621  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:54 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Originally Posted by 1HOT BMR View Post
I also prefer the X5 over the Cayenne. I drove one with a V6 a couple of years ago and I thought "it's just OK but perhaps it needs the right options (suspension) to feel better". Just a short while ago I read so many great things about the 2013 Cayenne GTS that I went and drove one. What a disappointment This one was fairly well equipped ($100K+ sticker) and it had no torque compared to my 550i - no pull until the revs climbed. The steering felt like an overboosted power steering so perhaps it had the option that makes it extra light at low speeds. I don't know - it also leaned a lot when cornering and the ride was not nearly as good as my X5 with AD and non-run flat tires - the interior is the only thing I liked. One thing is clear to me now, I will not be buying a Cayenne of any type in the near future BTW, when I asked about the voice commands to activate the Navigation the salesman told me that voice command is EXTRA!
Im sorry to have the say this, but you just opened Pandora's door lol.

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  #622  
Old 01-04-2013, 04:10 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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I need to say though that I really like X5. It's everything I like about BMW and after the M3 it's the BMW I like the most of what is currently being produced, it's just that the Cayenne is very stiff competition if you ignore price.
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  #623  
Old 01-04-2013, 04:23 PM
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ndabunka ndabunka is offline
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Originally Posted by georgejm View Post
ndabunka, on the 12 X5d I was able to get 11g off sticker total, on the Cayenne about 3g. It is what it is plus I will have to see what the trade value will be at delivery date so the deal is not the highlight of the event. When we drive off with it I will be able to say how we did but at lease I got my wife off of the Panamara which would have hurt the wallet a lot more. Life is short.
Ah, I would agree that getting out of the Panamera via the Cayenne is likely the best possible financial decision out of all the variables. Good to hear you also did get $3K off as well. There are a few other things like higher maintenance costs and others but as you said... You only live once. Why not live it the way YOU want as long as it's within your means. In my case, I could have had the Porsche by itself or kept my 2011 Victory Motorcycle AND the new X5d as well so in my case, my "toy" was worth going the X5d route. Besides, history has shown that my Ness edition of the Victory Cross Country will retain a greater percentage of it's value than either the X5d or the Cayenne would even be able to sniff at (90% of what I originally paid for it, four years later so it will likely still be worth nearly $20K in 2015 when it's paid off so I am looking at that as "cash in my pocket").

Please do come back on here and give us some apples-to-apples comparison observations. I LOVE how the dash and controls of the new Cayenne's is so similar to the Panamera console/dash.
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  #624  
Old 01-04-2013, 05:49 PM
henrycyao henrycyao is online now
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Awesome! Congrats! Can't wait to hear your comparisons between the two.

I built one the way I'd order it and it was about $72k. I added the Premium Plus Pkg, Bose, Online Services, and the Adaptive sport seats (worth every penny). I have to say that building a Porsche online is the most confusing thing ever.

If all goes well, I'll probably end up EDing a Porsche Cayenne TDI in a few years
I agree with Porsche site is really bad. The only option that I care about seem to be only in gas engine. ARS is really a must have technology if you want sporty SUV.

Knowing what I know now about their AWD, the diesel seems less attractive. The S sounds more like a worth while upgrade from X5.

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  #625  
Old 01-04-2013, 07:10 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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I agree with Porsche site is really bad. The only option that I care about seem to be only in gas engine. ARS is really a must have technology if you want sporty SUV.

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I agree, there are ways of minimizing body roll without it but in a vehicle of this size it will likely mean a rock hard ride which makes no sense at all in an SUV which at a bare minimum should be able to blast over broken tarmac and gravel roads with ease and comfort. If it can't, get a performance wagon if you need the space. There are for example KW coilovers for the Cayenne but again it doesn't make much sense in an SUV. I strongly dislike what is done to the BMW sedans where there are no options to retain the sporty connected drive of the E series so I'm a purist when it comes to my sport sedans and like a really stiff ride, steering and a high revving NA engine but an SUV is IMO useless if it can't traverse rough terrain and poor roads with ease. ARS is the solution if you want a sportier ride with retained comfort.

Last edited by solstice; 01-04-2013 at 07:11 PM.
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