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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 05-22-2014, 04:38 AM
gjsnow gjsnow is offline
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Question Anyone upset...No more 5's with 6MT?

I know it is a big car for a stick, but aren't the purists like me upset at the lack of rowing?
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  #2  
Old 05-22-2014, 05:29 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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I got one of the last ones. But truthfully, I'm disappointed. The turbochargers and Valvetronic, both necessary for the excellent fuel economy these cars have, introduce a lag in throttle response. I'm spoiled, coming from an E46 M3. But, when I drive my manual transmission Chevy Cobalt beater and snick up and down through the gears, there's a satisfaction that's missing in my 535i.

Rev' matching is a royal PIA in the 535i also, especially if you're not in Sport or Sport+ modes. The manual transmission M5 has rev matching, so the transfer functions, logic, and code already exist. All they'd have to do is change coefficient values. I'd pay for a re-flash to get rev matching (with a way to turn it off when I want to).

I end up using the 535i's manual for hyper-mile-ing, through: shifting early, and coasting to a stop and down hills in neutral. With the bar-graph display in the Efficient Dynamics mode (MPG over one minute, displayed for the previous 15 minute intervals, I can't help myself from trying to game the system and drive like a sandal wearing, tree-hugging, Prius driver. I'll more that make up for this deviant behavior at Advanced M School in a few weeks, though. The iDrive display bottoms out at 12 MPG, and I'm sure it will show 15 consecutive minutes of a very unrealistic 12 MPG.

I think that much of the satisfaction of a manual transmission is the direct link between the engine and the wheels, no torque converter. The M-cars' DCT still provides that. Also, the DCT's are just simply faster than a manual transmission, even a manual transmission in the hands of an expert. We won't see Lewis, Nico, Jenson, Fernando, Kimi, Sabsstian, Daniel, nd the rest of the boys rowing around Monaco this weekend.

I suspect my next overpriced, over-engineered car will have a DCT... a.k.a. PDK. I also suspect my next underpriced, under-engineered car will have another manual.
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  #3  
Old 05-22-2014, 07:56 AM
jfedor jfedor is offline
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I'm very upset about it. BMW canceled my production order because of it and I had to buy a pre-owned 2013 to get the manual. They will just lose my future business with no manuals. I know auto is faster and more fuel efficient but I love shifting. No matter how many BMW autos I drove I just don't enjoy the experience as much. If I'm spending the money I need to love it.
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  #4  
Old 05-22-2014, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfedor View Post
I'm very upset about it. BMW canceled my production order because of it and I had to buy a pre-owned 2013 to get the manual. They will just lose my future business with no manuals. I know auto is faster and more fuel efficient but I love shifting. No matter how many BMW autos I drove I just don't enjoy the experience as much. If I'm spending the money I need to love it.
So what will you buy instead?
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  #5  
Old 05-22-2014, 08:44 AM
kk22 kk22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
I got one of the last ones. But truthfully, I'm disappointed. The turbochargers and Valvetronic, both necessary for the excellent fuel economy these cars have, introduce a lag in throttle response. I'm spoiled, coming from an E46 M3. But, when I drive my manual transmission Chevy Cobalt beater and snick up and down through the gears, there's a satisfaction that's missing in my 535i.

Rev' matching is a royal PIA in the 535i also, especially if you're not in Sport or Sport+ modes. The manual transmission M5 has rev matching, so the transfer functions, logic, and code already exist. All they'd have to do is change coefficient values. I'd pay for a re-flash to get rev matching (with a way to turn it off when I want to).

I end up using the 535i's manual for hyper-mile-ing, through: shifting early, and coasting to a stop and down hills in neutral. With the bar-graph display in the Efficient Dynamics mode (MPG over one minute, displayed for the previous 15 minute intervals, I can't help myself from trying to game the system and drive like a sandal wearing, tree-hugging, Prius driver. I'll more that make up for this deviant behavior at Advanced M School in a few weeks, though. The iDrive display bottoms out at 12 MPG, and I'm sure it will show 15 consecutive minutes of a very unrealistic 12 MPG.

I think that much of the satisfaction of a manual transmission is the direct link between the engine and the wheels, no torque converter. The M-cars' DCT still provides that. Also, the DCT's are just simply faster than a manual transmission, even a manual transmission in the hands of an expert. We won't see Lewis, Nico, Jenson, Fernando, Kimi, Sabsstian, Daniel, nd the rest of the boys rowing around Monaco this weekend.

I suspect my next overpriced, over-engineered car will have a DCT... a.k.a. PDK. I also suspect my next underpriced, under-engineered car will have another manual.
Great post! The 5 is my first Auto for some of the reasons you have stated, however I am used to turbo cars with manuals. Also, the 5 is probably the most luxury oriented car I've owned and perhaps the 8-Spd is better suited to it. I do however miss the manual when by myself I am throwing the car around on a twisty back road. The sense of control when picking the gear and modulating the clutch is irreplaceable. Going faster is irrelevant. Also, I think it is more analog and involving in a way that paddle shifters or the "M" mode on the Auto cannot match. I suppose this is the price of progress.
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  #6  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:07 AM
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mason mason is offline
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No, go with the technology. If you just want the feeling of shift, just pull the transmission stick into manual. If you are concerned about not moving your left leg enough, go do a walk everyday.

Honestly, MT feels good when the traffic is going smoothly. It is not fun when you run into traffic all the time.
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  #7  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:26 AM
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I like my stick a bit better since I replaced the oem cdv with the Zeckhausen clutch delay valve but yeah, it's not really a car that demands an MT at this point. It's also such a refined, quiet chassis with an extremely subdued exhaust note that you really can't enjoy the growl bang bang pop of an MT. Of course an Exhaust would fix that to a certain extent.
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  #8  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:37 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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The lack of a manual transmission option on the 535i xDrive was one of the reasons why I did not buy it opting for something else.
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  #9  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:38 AM
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WillInDenver WillInDenver is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
I got one of the last ones. But truthfully, I'm disappointed. The turbochargers and Valvetronic, both necessary for the excellent fuel economy these cars have, introduce a lag in throttle response.

...

Rev' matching is a royal PIA in the 535i also, especially if you're not in Sport or Sport+ modes.
Interesting. I am reading very similar comments from people who bought 435s with manuals. It appears that these cars have really been designed with the 8AT in mind. And it really is an excellent transmission.
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  #10  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by duberalles View Post
The lack of a manual transmission option on the 535i xDrive was one of the reasons why I did not buy it opting for something else.
I'm curious - what car in the same class as the F10 did you find that does offer a manual?
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  #11  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:47 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I'm curious - what car in the same class as the F10 did you find that does offer a manual?

I got an Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT and it is absolutely awesome to drive...but I'm starting to get the new car itch again and looking at the 5 Series again....undecided if going the coupe route this time around or stick with a sport sedan...absolutely loved the 6 inline BMW turbocharged (but I want something more powerful like a 550i this time) however I really want a manual option or at least a Dual Clutch and AWD....and I absolutely dislike Audi.

Nothing I like in the Japanese camp this time.

A manual or DCT 550i xDrive would be incredibly tempting.
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  #12  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by duberalles View Post
I got an Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT and it is absolutely awesome to drive
I have wondered about those. Incredible value for what I would imagine to be a bulletproof car, seemingly.
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:55 AM
day03tls day03tls is offline
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Good Point Will. I have often found it odd that people buy BMW's and demand Porsche GT3/911 like performance. If your married and have to say 'yes to the dress all the time" then deal with the heavy 4 door. The 5 is a beauty, if not, go but a Porsche or a Corvette.
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  #14  
Old 05-22-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by day03tls View Post
Good Point Will. I have often found it odd that people buy BMW's and demand Porsche GT3/911 like performance. If your married and have to say 'yes to the dress all the time" then deal with the heavy 4 door. The 5 is a beauty, if not, go but a Porsche or a Corvette.
Or find enough success in your life that you can have both.
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  #15  
Old 05-22-2014, 10:04 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I have wondered about those. Incredible value for what I would imagine to be a bulletproof car, seemingly.

I cannot complain at all other than it does not have the adaptive dampers, tech was excellent at the time of introduction.


I'm extremely pleased with it, it feels very light but tight at the same time, excellent build quality, it handles like a dream considering the size.

But Acura chickened out and the replacement is one of the dullest car design I ever seen and it is smaller.....Acura pretty much gave up on even trying to stay in the game...their new cars are, for lack of better words, turds on wheels in my opinion. No appeal whatsoever, no distinction, no soul....back where they came from.

I would not mind getting back in the BMW fold, the F10 and the CTS are my currently favorite midsize sport sedans...but you cannot even get AWD on the CTS V-Sport, forget about manual....

Last edited by duberalles; 05-22-2014 at 10:08 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-22-2014, 10:06 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
Or find enough success in your life that you can have both.

To be honest I was thinking about just the dual car solution....get a reliable comfortable daily driver relatively economical and reliable (a Subaru Outback would do for example) and then get a coupe...

Last edited by duberalles; 05-22-2014 at 10:08 AM.
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  #17  
Old 05-22-2014, 10:39 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duberalles View Post
I got an Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT and it is absolutely awesome to drive...but I'm starting to get the new car itch again and looking at the 5 Series again....undecided if going the coupe route this time around or stick with a sport sedan...absolutely loved the 6 inline BMW turbocharged (but I want something more powerful like a 550i this time) however I really want a manual option or at least a Dual Clutch and AWD....and I absolutely dislike Audi.



Nothing I like in the Japanese camp this time.



A manual or DCT 550i xDrive would be incredibly tempting.

Have you tried a Bmw with the ZF 8 speed (pretty much any new bmw with automatic) yet? It's shift speeds are within milliseconds of a dct and it locks up the torque converter early so you don't get that slushy feeling. When equpped with the optional paddles I'm not really sure how much advtantage there would be with a DCT at this point.

Plus it works better as an automatic in that you don't get that annoyng clutch engagement delay in stop and go traffic like you do with dcts.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:57 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Have you tried a Bmw with the ZF 8 speed (pretty much any new bmw with automatic) yet? It's shift speeds are within milliseconds of a dct and it locks up the torque converter early so you don't get that slushy feeling. When equpped with the optional paddles I'm not really sure how much advtantage there would be with a DCT at this point.

Plus it works better as an automatic in that you don't get that annoyng clutch engagement delay in stop and go traffic like you do with dcts.

Yes I did and frankly I still prefer a manual.....the 8 speed ZF is for sure the best slushbox out there..I woudl prefer that than a bad DCT.

The manual shifter of my Acura, in Honda tradition, is one of the best "row your own" shifter out there....I'm very spoiled that way....
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:01 AM
bmw325 bmw325 is online now
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Anyone upset...No more 5's with 6MT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duberalles View Post
Yes I did and frankly I still prefer a manual.....the 8 speed ZF is for sure the best slushbox out there..I woudl prefer that than a bad DCT.



The manual shifter of my Acura, in Honda tradition, is one of the best "row your own" shifter out there....I'm very spoiled that way....

Totally agree - was just commenting on your wish for a dct 550. Honda shifters are the best.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:53 AM
jfedor jfedor is offline
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hopefully I won't have to worry about a replacement car for 10+ years. As you can see from my previous E46 I like to keep cars a while. The new 8 speed BMW auto is great and one of the best I have ever driven. I'd be fine with it in my wife's car but I like rowing my own.
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  #21  
Old 05-22-2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by duberalles View Post
To be honest I was thinking about just the dual car solution....get a reliable comfortable daily driver relatively economical and reliable (a Subaru Outback would do for example) and then get a coupe...
This is your BEST option. Actually, get a Subaru or whatever and go straight for a two-seater, NA engine, sport exhaust and MT. Why compromise when you don't have to? It will only breed regret later. Don't ask how I know - and, yes, that is my coupe in signature pic.
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:39 PM
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WillInDenver WillInDenver is online now
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Originally Posted by duberalles View Post
get a reliable comfortable daily driver relatively economical and reliable (a Subaru Outback would do for example)
I have a 2004 Explorer that I use for dirty duty and, frankly, I don't mind driving it that much. Who knows why my other car is a big hunking F10. Probably a bad decision.

I saw a funny bumper sticker the other day on the back of an Outback. It said "Nederland: A Dog In Every Subaru." You have to know about Nederland (Colorado) to get a kick out of that, but I would be legitimately surprised if Subarus made up any less than 40% of the car population up there.
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  #23  
Old 05-22-2014, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjsnow View Post
I know it is a big car for a stick, but aren't the purists like me upset at the lack of rowing?
GJSnow
(550i 6MT 2013)
I'm pretty upset. My 2013 550 is the single best car I've ever own. Blowing through the gears is an absolute joy. Yes, I know DCTs and the present flappy paddles are quicker, but I don't care. Ain't as much fun.

Presently halfway through my lease, I'm going to have to make tough decisions on my next car. May keep my 550. May pick up an M5. May go find something else.

I just can't see myself driving a car without a stick. My wife's Cayenne S is a fantastic car, but the flappy paddle just doesn't do give me the same joy as rowing my own.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:19 PM
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Campfamily Campfamily is online now
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I hear all of the talk about how the new automatics are more efficient, smoother, easier, etc. than a manual, and I get it; the technology has progressed to the point that an automatic is superior to a manual. But, I still can't get past the involvement that shifting gears for yourself (and, flipping a paddle isn't shifting gears for me) gives me. I live in LA, so I spend a whole lot of time driving in heavy traffic, and I still prefer a manual. However, I recognize that I'm in the minority here in the US, and that my next car might end up being some sort of automatic. Unless I can convince my accountant (and wife!!) that I can have a C7 Corvette or a 911!!!

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  #25  
Old 05-22-2014, 03:23 PM
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WillInDenver WillInDenver is online now
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Unless I can convince my accountant (and wife!!) that I can have a C7 Corvette or a 911!!!
Keith, nice to see you on the F10 forum.

Better hurry on that 911, though. The automotive press thinks they too will lose MT as an option soon.
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