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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 07-18-2012, 04:06 PM
MonkeyCMonkeyDo MonkeyCMonkeyDo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
...
I must have shifted over 100 times (no joke) in that amount of time. My leg was tired and I was really hating my MT6 and wishing I had that F30 with the AT8.

When traffic freed up I still could have switched it into sport mode and blasted up to 80 mph and enjoy the freedom of getting-the-hell-free of that mess.
Once I had a 9.5 hr drive back from Vegas in my MT. My leg was killing me by the time I got out of the pass. I am going to miss the stick. I am going to continue to probably drive with my right hand on the shifter, but good god I am not going to miss LA traffic gear changes.

Does anybody know if the BMW DTM team uses paddles or MT? I know the Porsche drivers all switched to the paddles as it was faster and allowed better control of the vehicle with both hands permanently on the wheel.
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  #52  
Old 07-18-2012, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
Once I had a 9.5 hr drive back from Vegas in my MT. My leg was killing me by the time I got out of the pass. I am going to miss the stick. I am going to continue to probably drive with my right hand on the shifter, but good god I am not going to miss LA traffic gear changes.

Does anybody know if the BMW DTM team uses paddles or MT? I know the Porsche drivers all switched to the paddles as it was faster and allowed better control of the vehicle with both hands permanently on the wheel.
BMW has taken the cover off its jaw-dropping M3 DTM Concept Car, giving us a taste of what will hit the track in the upcoming 2012 DTM season. Even though the German automaker has announced that the looks of the car will most likely change considerably leading up to its first race, we hope they retain the general idea: an amazing badass race car.
BMWs return to the DTM racing season will be with a CFRP monococque chassis with steel roll cage, a 6-speed sequential gearbox mated to a V8 engine with approximately 480-bhp.
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  #53  
Old 07-18-2012, 05:31 PM
MonkeyCMonkeyDo MonkeyCMonkeyDo is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BMW has taken the cover off its jaw-dropping M3 DTM Concept Car, giving us a taste of what will hit the track in the upcoming 2012 DTM season. Even though the German automaker has announced that the looks of the car will most likely change considerably leading up to its first race, we hope they retain the general idea: an amazing badass race car.
BMWs return to the DTM racing season will be with a CFRP monococque chassis with steel roll cage, a 6-speed sequential gearbox mated to a V8 engine with approximately 480-bhp.
So basically all real race cars are sequential gearboxes. I guess the question is do they use a true clutch less one and are the shifts done f1 style with paddles or up and down via the stick. Wish they had interior shots of the concept. Supposedly there is a DTM event at the welt when I am there. Maybe I will get to find out in person.
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  #54  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
So basically all real race cars are sequential gearboxes. I guess the question is do they use a true clutch less one and are the shifts done f1 style with paddles or up and down via the stick. Wish they had interior shots of the concept. Supposedly there is a DTM event at the welt when I am there. Maybe I will get to find out in person.
It is probably like (or maybe identical to) the sequential racing transmission in the Rahal Letterman M3. It uses a manual clutch (third pedal) but it does not have an H pattern. Similar in operation to a motorcycle transmission.

Even those types of transmissions are getting less and less common in race cars as most go to paddle shifters and 2 pedals and most drivers left foot brake.
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  #55  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Why on earth would a DSG/SMG want to do that? The entire point of these transmissions is very sporty performance without having to manually control shifting and be aware of what gear you are in.

If you want more control then you shift it manually, otherwise the computer shifts. Best of both worlds.

I was caught in the super nasty SB I25 logjam yesterday afternoon caused by a couple of morons http://kdvr.com/2012/07/17/truck-cra...thornton-pkwy/

45 minutes to travel 3 miles. Getting off of the highway wasn't even a viable option because it caused all of the south arteries and ramps to get jammed up too.

I must have shifted over 100 times (no joke) in that amount of time. My leg was tired and I was really hating my MT6 and wishing I had that F30 with the AT8.

When traffic freed up I still could have switched it into sport mode and blasted up to 80 mph and enjoy the freedom of getting-the-hell-free of that mess.
In our 20's , a MT was fun , and I didn;t mind the 100 mile roundtrip to work. Now 30 years later, the LA , OC and SD Freeways are a nightmare . We had the Preludes when we were younger, now we have no regrets switching the last 15 years to AT. We can not wait for the new 8 Speed Sport in our 335i. I used to love to heel and toe. I would stll enjoy renting a manual for a Weekend Mountain curvy road in SoCal. But for 99% of the time, My wife and I have no regrets in our AT Choices. We both had MTs when we met 30 years ago. Can not wait for our Fall PCD
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  #56  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:37 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
These newer generation ATs are really really good. I would argue that the primary reason for getting an MT now is some feeling that you are missing out on full driving enjoyment if you aren't rowing your own gears.
I would have to agree, but I will add that is a VERY big deal for some people.
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  #57  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:55 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
... but these are people who have driven in the Indy 500, Formula 1, held national championships, won the Daytona 24 Hour, had podium finises at LeMans, etc. Allmost all of them drive 2 pedal cars on the street and for the most part tend to leave them in automatic mode..
But we are not race car drivers. We are folks who want to shift to have fun, to pretend we are some racer of yesteryear. We are not trying to win races by a fraction of a second. It's just a thrill, and given the life of automatons many of us are living - commute, work, commute, deal with the kids, and repeat ad nauseum - that little thrill is very meaningful.

As to why these race car drivers have street cars with auto transmissions, I have a couple suspicions. Maybe they have autos so that spouses and kids can drive the cars. Or maybe given their racing experience, they get zero enjoyment from driving regular cars and they just don't give a damn about them. After driving very low powered go-carts, my car feels like a slow-motion lumbering giant turd. For folks driving real race cars, I have no doubt even an M3 feels like a bumper car. Or worse.
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  #58  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:00 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I got to the point where I was very adept at heel and toe shifting, double clutching, rev matching, etc. and I came to the conclusion that becoming adept with a manual gear box was one of the easiest aspects of high performance driving to master. I found that keeping on the proper line, getting the braking points right, threshold braking, trail brake rotation, learning how to get to the limits of grip while maintaining control of the car, and posting consistant lap times, were far much harder skills to master.
But even more irrelevant than "proper shifting" for street driving.
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  #59  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:02 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Any high performance driving school will teach that gliding or coasting is considered a poor driving technique.
It's also illegal in most states.
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  #60  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:08 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by brkf View Post
Ironic as my leg was giving me fits this week - two days sitting in meetings and 5 hours on a plane lead to that. Certainly has me wondering if I screwed up going back to manual. Oh well...
No, shifting will work your muscles a little bit to improve your circulation and make your leg feel a little better
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  #61  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:13 PM
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It's also illegal in most states.
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  #62  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:19 PM
reidconti reidconti is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Why on earth would a DSG/SMG want to do that? The entire point of these transmissions is very sporty performance without having to manually control shifting and be aware of what gear you are in.

If you want more control then you shift it manually, otherwise the computer shifts. Best of both worlds.

I was caught in the super nasty SB I25 logjam yesterday afternoon caused by a couple of morons http://kdvr.com/2012/07/17/truck-cra...thornton-pkwy/

45 minutes to travel 3 miles. Getting off of the highway wasn't even a viable option because it caused all of the south arteries and ramps to get jammed up too.

I must have shifted over 100 times (no joke) in that amount of time. My leg was tired and I was really hating my MT6 and wishing I had that F30 with the AT8.

When traffic freed up I still could have switched it into sport mode and blasted up to 80 mph and enjoy the freedom of getting-the-hell-free of that mess.
*shrug* Just a thought. Like I said, when I drive a paddle automatic, I get bored and just let it go into auto mode. That's why I couldn't buy one. I'd run it in auto mode all the time, and then be bored with the car, and be in the wrong gear on 10% of the time I actually wanted a *specific* gear, and then you have to hit the paddle, and THEN you get the gear.. it just all seems so contrived. I haven't owned an automatic in about 12 or 13 years, but I drive one every few weeks, and I can't wait to get back to a stick.

I haven't been driving stick my whole life, only about ... 13 years at this point. 13 years, 150-180k miles, I can remember *one* time I was annoyed by it. Super long metered uphill onramp. 1 car goes at a time, wash, rinse, repeat, for 3 minutes. That was annoying. Other than that, stop-and-go traffic, rush hour, you name it. I've commuted in the hilliest areas of the west coast with the worst traffic, I just don't see the big deal. I've done 90mi r/t commutes on the freeway, commutes with lots of traffic, commutes with lots of surface streets. I'm sitting there anyway, might as well be shifting.

Operating paddle shifters is *even easier*. A slight movement of the finger. And that's too much work in rush-hour traffic? Better hire a servant to operate your turn signals for you, you might die of the effort!

Wait, I remembered one other time I hated driving a stick. The slave cylinder on my VW died. At the bottom of a 5 story parking garage. At rush hour. The clutch just sank to the floor. Pry off the floor with your toe, push to floor, pry off the floor with your toe, push to floor. Wash, rinse, repeat. After about 5 times of this, you'd build enough pressure that it would actually spring back, as long as you kept pumping the clutch. I pumped the clutch NONSTOP for 20 minutes as I tried to crawl out of that effing garage. Every once in awhile, I'd put it in 1st to get going, or take it out of 1st to stop. Holy crap. THAT was a workout. But I blamed that one on VW, not on manual transmissions
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2012, 12:49 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
ATs are faster, more efficient, ...
OK, many people have repeated this recently in various threads. This is factually wrong. Period. Straight from bmwusa.com:

Acceleration 0-60 mph Manual transmission1 5.7 sec
Acceleration 0-60 mph Automatic transmission1 5.8 sec

Manual transmission City/Highway 3 23 /34 mpg
Automatic transmission City/Highway 3 23 / 33 mpg


Case closed. Having said that, I have to add that (1) I seldom believe BMW's numbers. I think the auto was listed at 5.9sec for 2012 and the initial hwy mpg was higher for the auto. So who knows? (2) These difference are indeed small (but haven't they always been?) and in normal driving, no one is going to regularly beat up on the clutch during starts, so autos will get going faster.
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  #64  
Old 07-19-2012, 01:11 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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One more thing. In this and other threads, some people mocked the idea of going for the 335, because they can't push past 50mph. I am not sure how that is relevant. Even 4-banger Camcord can hit quickly fly into triple digits. My lowly 4-banger Passat can bounce off the rev limiter at 130mph. So why aren't they laughable overkills, and why isn't the 328i even more laughable? Because top speed is one thing, but acceleration is something totally different which can be experienced at low speeds.

Like others here, I am condemned to a life of commuting on LA freeways. But I am lucky enough to have the option of avoiding rush hour, so I get to cruise a lot at 75-80mph for long stretches. My daily commute also includes a canyon run, which I get to enjoy whenever there are no dump trucks, buses, grannies, super slow pokes, or lost tourists. Some recent posts made me doubt myself about wanting to continue with manuals. But driving home today, I realized one thing. When I finally get around some inconsiderate Koala driver who belongs on a tree in a zoo, leaping into the 1/2 mile void left in front by revving then engine and then shifting at the perfect moment to tell him/her to f-off, it feels liberating and exhilarating. The stick is like an extension of you know what, or of my arm, of of whatever I want it to be to express myself. In a world where everything we do is subject to constraints (slavery), I don't want some damn computer to decide when to shift, I just want to do it whenever I want it, ultra smoothly or violently, to suit my mood of the moment. Yes, I am being irrational right now. It's time to hit the sac. But one thing has always been true for me. Without shifting, I would die from boredom on the freeways. Without occasional rushes or twisty curves, I would fall asleep. So I want more power and one extra gear to shift in my next car
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  #65  
Old 07-19-2012, 05:15 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
But we are not race car drivers. We are folks who want to shift to have fun, to pretend we are some racer of yesteryear. We are not trying to win races by a fraction of a second. It's just a thrill, and given the life of automatons many of us are living - commute, work, commute, deal with the kids, and repeat ad nauseum - that little thrill is very meaningful.

As to why these race car drivers have street cars with auto transmissions, I have a couple suspicions. Maybe they have autos so that spouses and kids can drive the cars. Or maybe given their racing experience, they get zero enjoyment from driving regular cars and they just don't give a damn about them. After driving very low powered go-carts, my car feels like a slow-motion lumbering giant turd. For folks driving real race cars, I have no doubt even an M3 feels like a bumper car. Or worse.
These guys own several cars and their wives and kids have their own cars. In several cases their children are also racers. One of them drives an M3 DCT on the street as his primary DD but owns at least 40 other cars including a classic MT Ferraris.

I think the general consensus is that when you drive real race cars (and keep in mind that the active drivers are primarily paddle shifting) on a track there is little incentive to drive a pretend race car on the street. BTW they are all big fans of M3s.

From my own experiece my track car is an MT and I have regular access to a track so I get my periodic MT fixes and am happy with an AT as a DD.

If you go back and read my posts I consistantly stated that I understood that some people preferred MTs and found them more enjoyable and would never try to covince them otherwise. I was addressing the "real drivers only drive MTs" and the "you get more control with an MT" crowds.

IMO some cars are best suited to MTs (i.e. my Miata track car), some are best suited to ATs (i.e. the 750Li) and some work well with either (i.e. the 335i cabrio).

CA
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  #66  
Old 07-19-2012, 06:09 AM
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Bob Shiftright Bob Shiftright is offline
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I haven't decided what I'll replace the E91 with as a DD, but it will have a rear hatch and barring a health calamity it will have a manual transmission. I still have about 2 1/2 years to think about it until my extended warranty expires. It might be a faster car than the E91 or it might be a slower one.

IMO, it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow!

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  #67  
Old 07-19-2012, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
One more thing. In this and other threads, some people mocked the idea of going for the 335, because they can't push past 50mph. I am not sure how that is relevant. Even 4-banger Camcord can hit quickly fly into triple digits. My lowly 4-banger Passat can bounce off the rev limiter at 130mph. So why aren't they laughable overkills, and why isn't the 328i even more laughable? Because top speed is one thing, but acceleration is something totally different which can be experienced at low speeds.

Like others here, I am condemned to a life of commuting on LA freeways. But I am lucky enough to have the option of avoiding rush hour, so I get to cruise a lot at 75-80mph for long stretches. My daily commute also includes a canyon run, which I get to enjoy whenever there are no dump trucks, buses, grannies, super slow pokes, or lost tourists. Some recent posts made me doubt myself about wanting to continue with manuals. But driving home today, I realized one thing. When I finally get around some inconsiderate Koala driver who belongs on a tree in a zoo, leaping into the 1/2 mile void left in front by revving then engine and then shifting at the perfect moment to tell him/her to f-off, it feels liberating and exhilarating. The stick is like an extension of you know what, or of my arm, of of whatever I want it to be to express myself. In a world where everything we do is subject to constraints (slavery), I don't want some damn computer to decide when to shift, I just want to do it whenever I want it, ultra smoothly or violently, to suit my mood of the moment. Yes, I am being irrational right now. It's time to hit the sac. But one thing has always been true for me. Without shifting, I would die from boredom on the freeways. Without occasional rushes or twisty curves, I would fall asleep. So I want more power and one extra gear to shift in my next car
+1
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  #68  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
These guys own several cars and their wives and kids have their own cars. In several cases their children are also racers. One of them drives an M3 DCT on the street as his primary DD but owns at least 40 other cars including a classic MT Ferraris.

I think the general consensus is that when you drive real race cars (and keep in mind that the active drivers are primarily paddle shifting) on a track there is little incentive to drive a pretend race car on the street. BTW they are all big fans of M3s.

From my own experiece my track car is an MT and I have regular access to a track so I get my periodic MT fixes and am happy with an AT as a DD.

If you go back and read my posts I consistantly stated that I understood that some people preferred MTs and found them more enjoyable and would never try to covince them otherwise. I was addressing the "real drivers only drive MTs" and the "you get more control with an MT" crowds.

IMO some cars are best suited to MTs (i.e. my Miata track car), some are best suited to ATs (i.e. the 750Li) and some work well with either (i.e. the 335i cabrio).

CA
Makes sense. If I weren't so bloody bored driving an automatic daily I could see going with it. Just feel like I'm doing something with a manual. No manual, very little interest in driving day to day. Unlike most people in socal, my drive is pretty short, on fun roads and goes opposite of traffic so I can enjoy the drive in the AM and PM.
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  #69  
Old 07-19-2012, 10:53 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by brkf View Post
Makes sense. If I weren't so bloody bored driving an automatic daily I could see going with it. Just feel like I'm doing something with a manual. No manual, very little interest in driving day to day. Unlike most people in socal, my drive is pretty short, on fun roads and goes opposite of traffic so I can enjoy the drive in the AM and PM.
I drove MTs commuting in NYC rush hour traffic for years and it never really bothered me. I even got in the habit of double clutching and heel and toe downshifting. It was totally unnecessary but a lot of fun and it made me feel like I was more involved. I still enjoy driving MTs but at this point all 3 of our road cars have ATs.

I live and work in Manhattan now so I don't use a car to commute but the years that I was commuting from Manhattan to Long Island that was a boring drive and would have been regardless of what I was driving.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 07-19-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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