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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #1  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:30 AM
crazydennamugg crazydennamugg is offline
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X Drive is it worth it

Just want an opinion if I should add X drive to my order..I recently ordered a 2013 F30 328i. will go into production in aug. i will be living in germany but it really doesnt snow all that bad but it does though...please comment. thanks
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2012, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydennamugg View Post
Just want an opinion if I should add X drive to my order..I recently ordered a 2013 F30 328i. will go into production in aug. i will be living in germany but it really doesnt snow all that bad but it does though...please comment. thanks
I have ordered the M Sport touring 330D and have a set of winter wheels and tyres, that is enough for snow 3 too 4 inches on the odd occasions we get it in the UK.
I was looking at 4 * 4 but it just adds weight and TBH we do not really need it, but winter tyres are a must in temps below 7 deg C.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:40 AM
crazydennamugg crazydennamugg is offline
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thanks....was planning on getting myself a good pair of winter tires anyways
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2012, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by crazydennamugg View Post
thanks....was planning on getting myself a good pair of winter tires anyways
You will need 4 tyres.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:34 AM
crazydennamugg crazydennamugg is offline
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yessir...was planning on it!!
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2012, 04:48 AM
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I lived in Europe for 13 years - most of it in Germany. You could probably get by with RWD and a set of Blizzaks in Norddeutschland, but I wouldn't try it in the more hilly/mountainous regions of Germany.

I'm a skier and love the area in the Bernese Alps around Wengen/Kleine Scheidegg/Grindelwald with it's panoramic vistas of the Jungfrau, Mönch and the Eiger. I can't imagine trying to negotiate that region in the Winter in a car without AWD/FWD.
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:16 AM
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I lived in Europe for 13 years - most of it in Germany. You could probably get by with RWD and a set of Blizzaks in Norddeutschland, but I wouldn't try it in the more hilly/mountainous regions of Germany.

I'm a skier and love the area in the Bernese Alps around Wengen/Kleine Scheidegg/Grindelwald with it's panoramic vistas of the Jungfrau, Mönch and the Eiger. I can't imagine trying to negotiate that region in the Winter in a car without AWD/FWD.
Yep
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Old 07-16-2012, 06:38 AM
OBS3SSION OBS3SSION is offline
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IMO, no. But there are exceptions.

I live in New England, and we can have some nasty winters. My 2003 330i was RWD and BMW's traction control systems are so good that with a set of winter tires, that car handled better in the snow than any FWD I've owned (with or without winter tires.)

One thing to keep in mind: Even in places that get a TON of snow, most people don't drive on roads that have any more than an inch or two at any given time. In fact, most driving in winter is done on clear roads and the biggest thing you need to worry about is drifting snow or melt-off freezing.

So that is why I say most people don't need AWD. However, there are people who live in areas where plowing isn't very good. Or have steep driveways or snowy roads to traverse on a regular basis. In these cases, a good AWD car with a set of winter tires is a good call (IMO, all the people driving AWD cars/trucks/SUVs in the winter with all-seasons are hypocritical!) Just remember that AWD will provide you with better traction for getting going, but NOT for turning or stopping. Too many people drive AWD vehicles like they are invincible, and I laugh at them every time I pass one in a ditch in my 2WD car.
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
IMO, no. But there are exceptions.

I live in New England, and we can have some nasty winters. My 2003 330i was RWD and BMW's traction control systems are so good that with a set of winter tires, that car handled better in the snow than any FWD I've owned (with or without winter tires.)

One thing to keep in mind: Even in places that get a TON of snow, most people don't drive on roads that have any more than an inch or two at any given time. In fact, most driving in winter is done on clear roads and the biggest thing you need to worry about is drifting snow or melt-off freezing.

So that is why I say most people don't need AWD. However, there are people who live in areas where plowing isn't very good. Or have steep driveways or snowy roads to traverse on a regular basis. In these cases, a good AWD car with a set of winter tires is a good call (IMO, all the people driving AWD cars/trucks/SUVs in the winter with all-seasons are hypocritical!) Just remember that AWD will provide you with better traction for getting going, but NOT for turning or stopping. Too many people drive AWD vehicles like they are invincible, and I laugh at them every time I pass one in a ditch in my 2WD car.
Having lived in New England (Vermont) for a good chunk of my life I can say that you are right... about New England.

The advice you are giving does not apply to many other areas in which miles of roads routinely go unplowed... such as Colorado where I've been living these past 20 years.
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  #10  
Old 07-16-2012, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
IMO, no. But there are exceptions.

I live in New England, and we can have some nasty winters. My 2003 330i was RWD and BMW's traction control systems are so good that with a set of winter tires, that car handled better in the snow than any FWD I've owned (with or without winter tires.)
Agree completely, it's all about the tires.

I guess I'm alone here, but I'm not putting my $50,000 BMW on any freshly-snowy road anyway. I've got the wife's car for that. And if I were single and my F30 was my only ride, I'd consider buying a beater AWD SUV for some utility in the summer and safety in the winter. If you have a commute by car and you must get to work on a snowy day, same rule would apply.

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  #11  
Old 07-16-2012, 09:06 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
So that is why I say most people don't need AWD. However, there are people who live in areas where plowing isn't very good. Or have steep driveways or snowy roads to traverse on a regular basis. In these cases, a good AWD car with a set of winter tires is a good call (IMO, all the people driving AWD cars/trucks/SUVs in the winter with all-seasons are hypocritical!)
How are we being hypocritical?

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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
Just remember that AWD will provide you with better traction for getting going, but NOT for turning or stopping. Too many people drive AWD vehicles like they are invincible, and I laugh at them every time I pass one in a ditch in my 2WD car.
On often mentioned, but unsupported, claim.
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  #12  
Old 07-16-2012, 12:38 PM
OBS3SSION OBS3SSION is offline
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How are we being hypocritical?
I should have clarified: People who drive an AWD car with all-season tires and tell me they have better grip and traction than a 2WD car with winter tires is usually drinking the AWD cool-aid. The only way to truly gain the full benefits of AWD in winter driving is to use winter tires. All-season tires are simply a compromise in all seasons.

Generally speaking...
AWD on all-seasons > 2WD on all-seasons (but neither are at best potential in winter)
AWD on all-seasons < 2WD on winters (maybe we'll call it even if the all-seasons are really good.)
AWD on winters > Everything else

So I don't mean to call everyone driving an AWD car with all-seasons a hypocrite. Maybe they live in an area where winter tires just aren't justified. But anyone who thinks they are king-of-the-road just because they have AWD (despite the fact that they have all-seasons), then yeah... I'll call them hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
On often mentioned, but unsupported, claim.
Yeah, I wish I could remember where I saw a great write-up on the effectiveness of AWD in the snow.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Having lived in New England (Vermont) for a good chunk of my life I can say that you are right... about New England.

The advice you are giving does not apply to many other areas in which miles of roads routinely go unplowed... such as Colorado where I've been living these past 20 years.
I thought I covered that in the last paragraph. There will be areas who have "snowy roads to traverse on a regular basis".

I may have just gone off on a tangent complaining about people who get an AWD because they live in these areas but then neuter the car by leaving the jack of all trades, master of none all-seasons on them. Or... the people who insist that they NEED AWD just because they might see a flake of snow every 10 years in Arizona or something.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by OBS3SSION View Post
IMO, no. But there are exceptions.

I live in New England, and we can have some nasty winters. My 2003 330i was RWD and BMW's traction control systems are so good that with a set of winter tires, that car handled better in the snow than any FWD I've owned (with or without winter tires.)

One thing to keep in mind: Even in places that get a TON of snow, most people don't drive on roads that have any more than an inch or two at any given time. In fact, most driving in winter is done on clear roads and the biggest thing you need to worry about is drifting snow or melt-off freezing.
I also live in Massachusetts, and most places don't go crazy overboard with the snow plows and salt like here in Mass. You hardly ever get to drive on snow here, cause as soon as it snows, they put down 3 inches of salt, and plow every three minutes until there are sparks flying. I shudder to think of how much of my tax money goes to pay for this.

I think in Germany he'd be fine with RWD and snow tires, but get really hardcore snow tires, like Nokians or Blizzaks. Don't get performance snows, they suck in snow.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:52 PM
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I have Dunlop Wintersports and they are outstanding in snow. While I have gotten high centered with them once (in about 18 inches of snow) I have never ever gotten "stuck" with them because of loss of traction.

Having extensive snow driving experience in both Vermont and Colorado, I will say that the argument that front or rear wheel drive with snows is better than AWD with all seasons is simply bogus.

A FWD or RWD car with snows will still slip more in cornering and will have a little more trouble initially getting going than an AWD car with high end all season tires.

My wife has an MDX and we run better than average all seasons on it. It is very very close to my Audi Quattro A4 with snow tires primarily because the MDX simply outweighs the Audi by a good 900 lbs, and it has a wider wheel base.

It also comes down to the AWD implementation. AWD systems that normally split power to the front and rear wheels 50/50 when getting started will do better with lower grade tires than AWD systems that try to send the bulk of the power to the front or the rear wheels unless slipping is detected.

My wife had an Infiniti FX35 for a few years and even with very good all seasons it was absolutely horrible in the snow, because the Infiniti puts the majority of the power to the rear wheels unless slipping is detected.

So, yeah, I don't have high hopes for the x-drive on the BMW without winter tires, but I still feel very confident that with winter tires the x-drive will outperform an RWD with snows in nearly all conditions that I encounter here.

Magazine idiots can write up whatever they want while they putter around on their test courses for a day or two. I have thousands and thousands of miles driving on really ****ty roads, so I will go with my own experience.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:04 PM
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I have Dunlop Wintersports and they are outstanding in snow.
Do you have the M3s? I had Winter Sport M2s on my E36 and they sucked in snow, no better than a decent all season. They were good in summer though (I wore them all year round to wear them out so I could buy better snows). Took 2 years using them 12 months to wear them out.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:09 PM
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Do you have the M3s? I had Winter Sport M2s on my E36 and they sucked in snow, no better than a decent all season. They were good in summer though (I wore them all year round to wear them out so I could buy better snows). Took 2 years using them 12 months to wear them out.
They are probably M3s since I bought them in 2005.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by crazydennamugg View Post
thanks....was planning on getting myself a good pair of winter tires anyways
You probably know this already but you are required to have winter tires on the car in Germany. I believe after Nov. 1.

I spent the winter of 2010-2011 going back and forth from Netherlands (little or no snow) through Germany, Austria and Italian Alps in a 525 and 530d with performance snows. If anyone recalls they had a lot of snow that winter in many places. I got along very well with RWD only. In fact the one thing I noticed was there were very few x-drive in EU at least from what I can tell. Winter tires are the key along with intelligent driving. I think you will be fine but the choice is up to you. I have x-drive now because I bought my car in MN where many of the back rods I travelled were plowed infrequently and because of severe cold were mostly covered in hardpack. I am in NY now and while we get a lot of snow I will probably go RWD with winter tires for my next BMW. I also have a job where if the weather is bad I don't have to drive.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:27 PM
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You probably know this already but you are required to have winter tires on the car in Germany. I believe after Nov. 1.

I spent the winter of 2010-2011 going back and forth from Netherlands (little or no snow) through Germany, Austria and Italian Alps in a 525 and 530d with performance snows. If anyone recalls they had a lot of snow that winter in many places. I got along very well with RWD only. In fact the one thing I noticed was there were very few x-drive in EU at least from what I can tell. Winter tires are the key along with intelligent driving. I think you will be fine but the choice is up to you. I have x-drive now because I bought my car in MN where many of the back rods I travelled were plowed infrequently and because of severe cold were mostly covered in hardpack. I am in NY now and while we get a lot of snow I will probably go RWD with winter tires for my next BMW. I also have a job where if the weather is bad I don't have to drive.
]

I rented 3 years ago in Germany and winters were mandatory already.
I agree with you. Winter tires are the key. AWD is tremendous waist unless you live in hilly areas.

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Old 07-17-2012, 08:58 AM
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Note that's also a difference between snow in the flatlands, versus hilly areas.

Ditto places that are extremely well-prepared and plow frequently, versus places that aren't.

Also, the moisture content of the snow and the temperature of it. Snow with high moisture content that fell on above-freezing or near-freezing ground, where it's really hilly, is a recipe for disaster.

Personally, I'm looking to pick up an AWD car for skiing and have no desire to swap chains on and off in the dark, on the side of the road, and then drive slow as hell.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:12 AM
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Forgive me, but I think this discussion may be confusing all-wheel-drive, which is what xDrive is, from 4-wheel-drive, which it is not. In my opinion, all-wheel-drive systems are more for performance handling under most road conditions, whether wet or dry, than they are for just winter driving. Granted, with the correct tires, xDrive will easily get you through usual winter conditions...keeping in mind the laws of physics, and also that one should simply stay put and not drive in certain winter weather conditions.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:47 AM
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Not all All Season tires are created equal and some are much better in the snow than others. I have so called "Ultra High Performance" all seasons on the 335i. They are not particularly good in the snow but I don't take the car out in the snow so that was not a consideration.

In the area were I live (NYC) the temperature can go from 20 degrees to 70 degrees in the space of a few days. I did not want dedicated Summer tires because they tend to become hockey pucks when the temperature gets near or below freezing.

CA
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:08 AM
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Forgive me, but I think this discussion may be confusing all-wheel-drive, which is what xDrive is, from 4-wheel-drive, which it is not. In my opinion, all-wheel-drive systems are more for performance handling under most road conditions, whether wet or dry, than they are for just winter driving. Granted, with the correct tires, xDrive will easily get you through usual winter conditions...keeping in mind the laws of physics, and also that one should simply stay put and not drive in certain winter weather conditions.
4-wheel drive systems that you are describing don't really exist anymore in regular sedans and SUVs.

Nearly everything out there right now is full time AWD.

There are differences in implementation, such as what type of torque converters are used, whether the power delivery is primarily to the front or wheels (or split 50/50 as is the case with some) whether you can over-ride this behavior with a "snow" switch, etc.

However, traditional 4-wheel drive with switched trans-axle lock-ins haven't really been around in consumer SUVs and sedans for years.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:09 AM
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In the area were I live (NYC) the temperature can go from 20 degrees to 70 degrees in the space of a few days. I did not want dedicated Summer tires because they tend to become hockey pucks when the temperature gets near or below freezing.

CA
A few days?

It can go from 30 degrees to 80 degrees here in the same day. The good news is that the snow melts off quite quickly so we don't end up with mammoth snow banks that stick around for 3-4 months which is typical in new england.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:17 AM
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A few days?

It can go from 30 degrees to 80 degrees here in the same day. The good news is that the snow melts off quite quickly so we don't end up with mammoth snow banks that stick around for 3-4 months which is typical in new england.
I know what you mean. My partner at work lives in Highlands Ranch and I speak to him every day. The weather there is even more unpredcitable than it is here in NYC.

In the winter of 2010/2011 we had a lot of snow. Last winter we had almost none so dedicated snow tires would have been a complete waste and if I had them I would have been driving on them on dry roads in 50 degree temperatures.

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