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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #26  
Old 07-17-2012, 02:50 PM
bringonthenite bringonthenite is offline
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Originally Posted by reidconti View Post
Note that's also a difference between snow in the flatlands, versus hilly areas.

Ditto places that are extremely well-prepared and plow frequently, versus places that aren't.

Also, the moisture content of the snow and the temperature of it. Snow with high moisture content that fell on above-freezing or near-freezing ground, where it's really hilly, is a recipe for disaster.

Personally, I'm looking to pick up an AWD car for skiing and have no desire to swap chains on and off in the dark, on the side of the road, and then drive slow as hell.
Good points reidconti. Where I live the roads hilly and are not well plowed, the snow is wet and we have a lot of black ice. I know the xDrive, with winter tires, is the best choice for this area.
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  #27  
Old 07-17-2012, 06:07 PM
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What about resale value on RWD vs X Drive - if you live in an area that gets a few snow storms, where you could probably get away with RWD. Does resale value factor in to just getting X drive because you'd have an easier time selling and hold value a bit better? I know Audi used to tout this saying quattro would hold so much more value that it didn't pay not to get it.
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  #28  
Old 07-17-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by enig44 View Post
What about resale value on RWD vs X Drive - if you live in an area that gets a few snow storms, where you could probably get away with RWD. Does resale value factor in to just getting X drive because you'd have an easier time selling and hold value a bit better? I know Audi used to tout this saying quattro would hold so much more value that it didn't pay not to get it.
There are AWD people and there are RWD people and the streams do not cross. In Bergen County, I'd say that 60% of the E90's I see on the roads every day are XDrive, therefore upon resale you'd have an audience of 40% interested in a RWD car.

"Resale factor" is all relevant to the value of the option. If XDrive costs $2,000 and you skip it and put in $2,000 worth of the technology package and premium package, both cars will be worth the same thing.

Life's too short to worry about this, to potentially get an XDrive car because of what it might potentially be worth the subsequent buyer. Get the car that makes you happy, run with it for 36 months, trade it in, it's the dealer's problem, not yours.

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  #29  
Old 07-17-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by enig44 View Post
What about resale value on RWD vs X Drive - if you live in an area that gets a few snow storms, where you could probably get away with RWD. Does resale value factor in to just getting X drive because you'd have an easier time selling and hold value a bit better? I know Audi used to tout this saying quattro would hold so much more value that it didn't pay not to get it.
RWD value vs AWD depends on where you are. In the south or even on the west coast, I think there is little perceived value from AWD in these cars and you will probably have to write the option off to make a sale, or worse, sell it for a little less as the AWD ones get poorer gas milage.

In areas like the one I am in, good luck selling one without AWD.

The non SUV "luxury" segment around here is 90% Mercedes 4Matic, BMW x-drive and Audi Quattro. The Japanese can't compete!
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  #30  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enig44 View Post
What about resale value on RWD vs X Drive - if you live in an area that gets a few snow storms, where you could probably get away with RWD. Does resale value factor in to just getting X drive because you'd have an easier time selling and hold value a bit better? I know Audi used to tout this saying quattro would hold so much more value that it didn't pay not to get it.
It only matters if you say, try to sell a car without heated seats in New England, or maybe a 328i auto w/out sport package in New England. i.e. if it's a 335i M sport, buyers won't expect X-drive, but if it's a base 3 series in a cold climate, it would be a tough sell.
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  #31  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
There are AWD people and there are RWD people and the streams do not cross. In Bergen County, I'd say that 60% of the E90's I see on the roads every day are XDrive, therefore upon resale you'd have an audience of 40% interested in a RWD car.
The funny thing is, owners who live in the snow belt that insist on RWD prefer manual transmssion most of the time. I guess the AWD auto transmission drivers are the lazy one who doesnt want to swap out winter tires and stick shift.
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  #32  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:04 PM
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AWD isn't just for the snow. I'm a big fan of AWD and sticky Summer tires for maximum traction in dry and wet conditions. With 510hp/580ftlbs in my F10, traction can be tricky without AWD.
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  #33  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:10 PM
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The funny thing is, owners who live in the snow belt that insist on RWD prefer manual transmssion most of the time. I guess the AWD auto transmission drivers are the lazy one who doesnt want to swap out winter tires and stick shift.
Or owners who live in the snow belt that insist on RWD and prefer manual transmssions just like to shift slowly and spin their wheels.
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  #34  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
There are AWD people and there are RWD people and the streams do not cross. In Bergen County, I'd say that 60% of the E90's I see on the roads every day are XDrive, therefore upon resale you'd have an audience of 40% interested in a RWD car.

"Resale factor" is all relevant to the value of the option. If XDrive costs $2,000 and you skip it and put in $2,000 worth of the technology package and premium package, both cars will be worth the same thing.

Life's too short to worry about this, to potentially get an XDrive car because of what it might potentially be worth the subsequent buyer. Get the car that makes you happy, run with it for 36 months, trade it in, it's the dealer's problem, not yours.

BJ
Its your problem if the dealer won't give you a good price for the car because he needs to ship it out of state to sell it.

I think you may have the numbers wrong for Bergen County. In Fairfield County, RWD BMWs don't sell. I have not seen an F30 in Fairfield County except at the dealer (who told me they weren't selling any 3 series because everyone was waiting for the AWD F30). I did see one in Manhattan but people who live in Manhattan typically don't need to drive if it snows.
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  #35  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:59 PM
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Its your problem if the dealer won't give you a good price for the car because he needs to ship it out of state to sell it.

I think you may have the numbers wrong for Bergen County. In Fairfield County, RWD BMWs don't sell. I have not seen an F30 in Fairfield County except at the dealer (who told me they weren't selling any 3 series because everyone was waiting for the AWD F30). I did see one in Manhattan but people who live in Manhattan typically don't need to drive if it snows.
Perhaps, but my E93 was a beast in the New England winter on Nokian Hakkapaleta snow tires so I know something they don't know. That it's all about the tires and sensible driving. It's also nice to have another car so that reliance on a $50,000 luxury car isn't necessary on the 5 days a year the conditions warrant an AWD setup.

BJ
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  #36  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Perhaps, but my E93 was a beast in the New England winter on Nokian Hakkapaleta snow tires so I know something they don't know. That it's all about the tires and sensible driving. It's also nice to have another car so that reliance on a $50,000 luxury car isn't necessary on the 5 days a year the conditions warrant an AWD setup.

BJ
You can put snow tires on an AWD car you know. How many days a year you might need AWD depends on the winter and the kind of roads driven on. Unpaved roads can remain icy for weeks and if they are steep, AWD helps tremendously. Many people get AWD just so they can get their car up their driveway.
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  #37  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:39 PM
Andrej_328i Andrej_328i is offline
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I test drove, back to back, 2008 328i, 2009 A4, and 2009 328xi. 328i was BY FAR the better driving car out of three. It felt lighter, quicker and more responsive. 328i felt like 350Z and other two felt more like Altima or Camry (to me). Even though Utah sees a lot of snow during winter I decided to keep my 04 A4 for winters and get 2012 328i. Once Audi gives out I'll just get winter tires. No AWD for me. At least not until I get over my desire for RWD beemer. Spring, Summer and Fall = RWD > ALL.
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  #38  
Old 07-18-2012, 08:13 PM
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You can put snow tires on an AWD car you know. How many days a year you might need AWD depends on the winter and the kind of roads driven on. Unpaved roads can remain icy for weeks and if they are steep, AWD helps tremendously. Many people get AWD just so they can get their car up their driveway.
Agree completely, and as you can see in my sig I chose to go XDrive on my current ride for those nasty New England winters and it was a major peace-of-mind provider.

But having also had RWD in New England, I can say that the difference between the two isn't that great that giving up AWD in New Jersey will affect me. Yes, a major factor there is that I don't rely on my car for the daily commute and I don't live in a very hilly area anymore. And obviously being 250 miles south means I'm not going to get the types of conditions I used to face.

As others have said, the rationale for AWD vs. RWD is based on where you live and what your roads look like- assuming that in both cases you have dedicated snow tires. Where we get into conflict revolves around using AWD as a way to cheat the effort involved in swapping out all seasons for snows which is simply not a good idea. Sadly, for my neighbors here in the NY metro area they view it that way, just don't want to put forth the effort, so I'll be safer in my RWD + Snow Tires than they'll be in their XDrive + All Seasons simply because they're lazy. Nothing I can do about that but occasionally preach the gospel.

BJ
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  #39  
Old 07-19-2012, 12:19 AM
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There is a test somewhere (tirerack?) confirming the obvious, that winter tires are more important than AWD vs 2WD. AWD helps only traction and does not do much for braking and cornering. Only tires help in that regard.

But if going for AWD, why not Audi? A Luxury line + Xdrive 328i costs almost as much as a better quipped S4
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  #40  
Old 07-19-2012, 03:54 AM
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There is a test somewhere (tirerack?) confirming the obvious, that winter tires are more important than AWD vs 2WD. AWD helps only traction and does not do much for braking and cornering. Only tires help in that regard.

But if going for AWD, why not Audi? A Luxury line + Xdrive 328i costs almost as much as a better quipped S4
Because an Audi isn't a luxury car and BMW owners aren't interested in stepping down the social ladder. An Audi is something a Volkswagen-driving kid aspires to own before he's 28. Adults want a BMW, and the couple of thousand dollar difference means nothing to them.

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  #41  
Old 07-19-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Perhaps, but my E93 was a beast in the New England winter on Nokian Hakkapaleta snow tires so I know something they don't know. That it's all about the tires and sensible driving. It's also nice to have another car so that reliance on a $50,000 luxury car isn't necessary on the 5 days a year the conditions warrant an AWD setup.

BJ
And what prestigious neighborhood in New England are you from BJ?
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  #42  
Old 07-20-2012, 09:19 AM
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xDrive is excellent. I'm on my second set of OEM Conti Contact Sport A/S tires and running them through 3 winters of commuting and skiing, I've never had a bit of trouble...except the very first time I ever drove my 335xi in the snow and applied a hair too much torque doing a U-turn where I got backward. I highly recommend the xDrive - the handling is rear-biased neutral, the acceleration is outstanding, and it's super practical in the winter without dedicated winter tires.
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  #43  
Old 07-20-2012, 09:36 AM
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will give you an opinion soon, am moving to a state with lots of snow and mtns in 1 mo

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  #44  
Old 07-20-2012, 06:45 PM
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Wont buy a vehicle without it. Saved my ass more times than I can count in rainy weather. I was able to pull off some evasive maneuvers that a standard rwd would have spun out. You can always turn off all the added control but not add it later.

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  #45  
Old 07-21-2012, 03:17 PM
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In the old says, 4WD was not smooth, it was heavy and some of them have to be manually engage. The new generation of AWD is lighter, they make the car perform better, its a important safety feature the AWD drive train is smooth as silk. Like many improved technology, AWD of today is not the same as the old days.

Last edited by The X Men; 07-21-2012 at 03:28 PM.
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  #46  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:51 PM
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In the old says, 4WD was not smooth, it was heavy and some of them have to be manually engage. The new generation of AWD is lighter, they make the car perform better, its a important safety feature the AWD drive train is smooth as silk. Like many improved technology, AWD of today is not the same as the old days.
That's all nice, but 9 months out of the year RWD is a lot better and once you put on your snow tires for the other 3 months it's a lot safer (vs. AWD + all seasons).

You may not be one of them, but 90% of AWD owners get AWD because they're too lazy to get their tires swapped out each November and March, so they ride on all seasons with AWD thinking they're safe when they're not.

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  #47  
Old 07-21-2012, 08:54 PM
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Wont buy a vehicle without it. Saved my ass more times than I can count in rainy weather. I was able to pull off some evasive maneuvers that a standard rwd would have spun out. You can always turn off all the added control but not add it later.
If that's the case, perhaps you're driving too aggressively. If you needed 20 or 30 instances where AWD saved the day, you're not driving the way a typical person would. This is the other part of the AWD problem, the part where false confidence leads to foolish driving characteristics.

BJ
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
Saved my ass more times than I can count in rainy weather. I was able to pull off some evasive maneuvers that a standard rwd would have spun out.


The BMW AWD system does not provide additional control once the car is moving, especially not additional cornering traction. This explains why most vehicles in the ditch in winter driving are AWD; owners mistakenly believe they have better traction and can get away with more.

Then again, perhaps your "evasive maneuvers" consist of shifting down two or three gears and flooring it at low speeds. You may have additional traction under these circumstances.
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:34 AM
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xDrive.


The BMW all-wheel drive system, xDrive, ensures your BMW has the best possible traction at all times, enhancing agility and keeping you safely on track, even on fast bends.

xDrive is the permanent all-wheel drive system from BMW: under normal circumstances, it distributes driver power between the front and rear axles in a 40:60 ratio, and changes this figure variably when the road surface or overall driving conditions change.
Acting virtually instantaneously and a manner so subtle as to be go virtually unnoticed by the vehicle's occupants, xDrive can direct up to 100% of drive forces to one axle. Enabling the driver to start up effortlessly even on slippery surfaces or steep hills, xDrive routes all power to the axles with the greatest traction. When parking, the system reacts to the need for high manoeuvrability at low speed by opening the clutch completely so the powertrain functions optimally.
At the first sign of understeering, drive power to the front axle is reduced. If oversteering is detected, xDrive directs more power to the front axle. Thanks to this dynamic redistribution of power, vehicle stability returns to normal even before the driver notices anything amiss.
Driving on a winding road or taking a fast bend in dynamic style is particularly enjoyable with xDrive: you feel as if your BMW is being guided along the curve. xDrive ensures that none of drive power is wasted on a loss of traction: every kilowatt of power is effectively brought to bear on the road.
xDrive is regulated by Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) and uses information from the latter system’s sensors to monitor road conditions. In addition, brake force courtesy of DSC is used when there is traction difference between the two sides of the vehicle and wheel spin is likely.
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  #50  
Old 07-22-2012, 09:01 AM
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This illustrates my point precisely. "xDrive ensures that none of drive power is wasted on a loss of traction: every kilowatt of power is effectively brought to bear on the road."

Note there is no claim of additional traction added which is not already present. Rather, "drive power" is not wasted.

AWD does not provide additional cornering traction. It only assists in avoiding wheel spin when accelerating. That is, no "drive power is wasted on a loss of traction."

Only if your accident avoidance maneuvers involve aggressive acceleration which would break the rear tires loose of a RWD vehicle does AWD provide you with a safety advantage.
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