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  #101  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:01 AM
pod13 pod13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone

The corner workers were at Ralf's car. In fact he was trying to get out, when the corner worker talked to him and had him remain in the car since it wasn't burning and they were there with fire extinguishers if it started.
Which ones? The ones behind the fence? I guess they were yelling really loud. It still took a long time for the crews to show up, but I guess it takes what 2.6 mins to drive the circuit at 60mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
As for the MS pass, the race is one when the safety car pulls off or when the green flag is shown, not when they cross the start finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA Rules
k) Green flags and lights will be shown when the safety car has pulled off the circuit but overtaking remains forbidden until the cars cross the line. However, any car which slows with an obvious problem may be overtaken.
It was a questionable move. If MS was beside any other car than another red one, we would be hearing much more about it. I've heard that timing has the two cars at a dead heat when crossing the line. I guess moving from behind to along side another car isn't 'overtaking' as long as your nose doesn't poke in front of the other. Still a very risky move for MS to make.

Didn't Sato say he had to slow to let MS back in when he came out of the pits? I remember him saying that he had to almost stop to avoid the wreckage (making it quicker to go through pit-lane and change tires), but that on MS exit he had to slow to let him in and its something they should look at. Maybe he was talking about something else.
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Last edited by pod13; 06-21-2004 at 05:04 AM.
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  #102  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All
That pass MS made on RB after the first safety car was BS. The two cars are too evenly matched and two drivers too evenly skilled to have been THAT easy of a pass. They (Ferrari) had made a radio communication to RB to make sure he drops back to block for MS.

F1 needs to monitor pit to car communication again to prevent this sort of BS from happening repeatedly.
Ok, I hate Ferrari, but I disagree with this.

The way I saw it, Rubens did not get the best jump on the restart and Schumi was not caught out by his move. When I saw how close they were "the second" they got the jump, I knew Rubens would be toast. Why? Because if MS was within about 4 car lengths there, he would easily be able to draft Rubens on the straight... as he did, as these F1 cars punch a big hole in the air for drafting.
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  #103  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All
...The Ferrari "spotters" probably saw that JPM did not have the tech sign-off sticker on his car and called it in like they're paid to do.
That "missing sticker" was just the anouncers creating stories based off limited information. He was DQ'd do to starting grid rule infraction.


As for the pass, even cars or not, getting a good jump on a restart has always been key. Follow that with a long straight + draft and it's very hard not to do what he did. That's motor racing.

*sigh* conspiracy theories to sooth the soul

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  #104  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:28 AM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
Easy!

Jarno Trulli/Renault.

He already did it.

And don't whine about MS being out of the race at Monaco. He was a pit stop down when he left the race and Trulli had dominated the entire weekend.

Renault legitimately beat Ferrari at Monaco.

So there.
I'm not disputing the fact that Renault was very good in Monaco and it was a well deserved win. It looks like they are, along with BAR Honda, the only serious competitors at the moment. BMW couldn't get a good working package like the one they had last year. The car has aerodynamic flaws, I read.

I want to refer to Pinecone's one of the earlier replies in another thread. It took the Scuderia Team long time to build a competitive and winning car. It was a long hard way and it costed them a lot of money. Read the statistics of the 90s, then you'll understand what I mean.

As for the pit-driver-pit radio communications, both FIA and the TV stations have free access to the frequencies and can monitor the conversations. (since the 2003 season)
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  #105  
Old 06-21-2004, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliJeff
Why a major thumbsdown? The one engine per race weekend would've dampened the results for JPM anyway.
It would have made him start from the back - and he did. Breakng the one engine rule isn't an automatic DQ.
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  #106  
Old 06-21-2004, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerdave
Easy!

Jarno Trulli/Renault.

He already did it.
The way he drove today, he would have had a shot if the qualifying car had worked. JPM, if he hadn't been pulled. Pinecone is saying we're not looking at the rest of the field, but we are. They DQed one of the three guys who was driving like stink and actually passing, and that hacks me. The FW26 spare car seemed the match of any out there - hmm, maybe he should take it from now on.
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  #107  
Old 06-21-2004, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamZ4
it seems to me the joke is Schumacher's so-called competition
You weren't watching JPM, Trulli, and Sato drive today, then.
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  #108  
Old 06-21-2004, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All
and that team order exists in almost all the teams in contention for the championship.
I'm not so sure I agree. I think that the rest of the teams are pretty much letting the drivers go at it, and seeing who comes out on top; no unofficial 'top dog' (although Honda would be forgiven for trying to push Button).
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  #109  
Old 06-21-2004, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All
Why the Scoot-arrhea doesn't let RB race MS at this point is beyond my comprehension. One more win MS would clinch the driver's title for this year, no?
Oh, I think they like to set records (wins, points, laps, poles, etc.), too. And MS is the one who is in position to break them all (and/or keep them basically forever)
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  #110  
Old 06-21-2004, 03:08 PM
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Still pi**ed about the DQ

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  #111  
Old 06-21-2004, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILLIA///M


If they can DQ him for taking two seconds too long to jump a concrete barrier, they should DQ the FIA for taking an hour and a half too long to make the f-ing decision.
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  #112  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:35 PM
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Wait till they DQ Trulli for bad hair.
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  #113  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:45 PM
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Ralph's Crash Explaination

Per the BMW Motorsport Newsletter...

21.06.2004
Puncture caused Ralf's accident
After careful investigation of Ralf Schumacher's accident during yesterday's US Grand Prix, it has been confirmed that a punctured tyre caused the crash.

Following Ralf’s accident in yesterday’s United States Grand Prix, the BMW WilliamsF1 Team were quick to investigate why the German lost control of his FW26 on the banked corner at Turn 13.

According to Michelin's Motorsport Director, Pierre Dupasquier, both Ralf's, and Fernando Alonso's accidents a couple of laps earlier, were caused by a punctured tyre. It is thought that debris from the first corner accident on lap one may have been responsible.

"As far as the two accidents early in the race are concerned, Fernando Alonso and Ralf Schumacher suffered deflated right and left rear tyres respectively," said Dupasquier, "We have examined the tyres and it is clear that both were damaged by debris that had been picked up from the track, probably in the wake of the multiple pile-up at the first corner."

Ralf hit the concrete wall at about 300 km/h, but did not suffer serious injury thanks to the ever improving safety of modern-day Formula One cars.
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  #114  
Old 06-21-2004, 05:46 PM
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BMW Reactions to the USGP

Per the BMW Motorsport Newsletter..

20.06.2004
Reactions to the US Grand Prix
Ralf Schumacher appears to have come away from the accident with just bruising. "Thankfully Ralf will be ok," said Sam Michael, WilliamsF1's Technical Director.

Juan Pablo Montoya: "I’ve heard that Ralf is basically OK and I am glad to know that but I feel disappointed about my race. I had a problem at the start, which forced me to run to the spare car, which was set for me anyway. I started from the pit-lane and had a tough race having to climb up the field. I managed to run as high as second, at one point, but realistically we were on for a strong top four position but then I got the black flag. Again a bad outcome to what seemed to be a reasonably good weekend. The only comfort is that the car was quick today, which allowed me to catch up with the frontrunners from the back of the field."

Sam Michael (Technical Director, WilliamsF1): "Thankfully Ralf will be ok. He had a puncture, which caused him to crash. The reason for Juan Pablo’s black flag is that when we tried to start the engine on the grid, the starter would not engage into the back of the car and we decided therefore that Juan Pablo should get into the T-car. However, according to the FIA’s article No.85 Juan Pablo would need to have left the grid within 15 seconds before the start of the formation lap and we were a few seconds too late. Obviously two disappointing results in a row is not good. However we are fighter and intend to come back strongly."

Mario Theissen (BMW Motorsport Director): "Of course our race was over-shadowed by Ralf’s accident. I visited him in the medical centre during the race, where he was undergoing a first check. I could even speak with him shortly. We all hope now that Ralf recovers quickly. After Juan Pablo had his problem at the start, he fought hard and managed to get into the points but was excluded with 16 laps to go to the end of the race."
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  #115  
Old 06-22-2004, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILLIA///M
Wait till they DQ Trulli for bad hair.
If that becomes a reason for disqualification, Renault is going to lose both drivers...

That godawful ponytail does need to go.
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  #116  
Old 06-22-2004, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pod13
Which ones? The ones behind the fence? I guess they were yelling really loud. It still took a long time for the crews to show up, but I guess it takes what 2.6 mins to drive the circuit at 60mph.

It was a questionable move. If MS was beside any other car than another red one, we would be hearing much more about it. I've heard that timing has the two cars at a dead heat when crossing the line. I guess moving from behind to along side another car isn't 'overtaking' as long as your nose doesn't poke in front of the other. Still a very risky move for MS to make.

Didn't Sato say he had to slow to let MS back in when he came out of the pits? I remember him saying that he had to almost stop to avoid the wreckage (making it quicker to go through pit-lane and change tires), but that on MS exit he had to slow to let him in and its something they should look at. Maybe he was talking about something else.

There was a worker at the car before ralf got the wheel off. Ralf started to try to get out, and the corner worker leaned down and said something to him, and then he sat back and stayed in teh car. That one. That guy was there very fast. The rescue team took longer to get there.


As for the move, why is it questional. You can pass as soon as you can see a green flag, or past the corner showing a yellow flag. What he did was perfectly legal, no matter who he was passing.
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  #117  
Old 06-22-2004, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
I want to refer to Pinecone's one of the earlier replies in another thread. It took the Scuderia Team long time to build a competitive and winning car. It was a long hard way and it costed them a lot of money. Read the statistics of the 90s, then you'll understand what I mean.

As for the pit-driver-pit radio communications, both FIA and the TV stations have free access to the frequencies and can monitor the conversations. (since the 2003 season)
90s, heack, don't foget the 80s. 21 something years without a championship.

They have worked VERY hard to put together the entire team car that gets them these wins.
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  #118  
Old 06-22-2004, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All
I beg to differ. If Williams, BAR, or Renault is anywhere near contention for a Driver's Championship title, you'd see any of the three teams pull a stunt like having #2 block for #1 by allowing #1 to pass #2 with relative ease after a safety car period, then slowing down to prevent the rest of the field from catching #1. IF any of the above mentioned team are in contention.

Why the Scoot-arrhea doesn't let RB race MS at this point is beyond my comprehension. One more win MS would clinch the driver's title for this year, no?
ABSOLUTELY. I has been that way since the first time a team had two cars on the track.

And RB CAN race, but only up to the 2nd pit stop.

And with the new points system is is VERY hard to clinch. The points spreads are too low. In past years the second guy would be much further down, so the top guy could clinch fairly early.

Even now, it would only take two races for RB to pass MS is MS fails to finish in the points and RB wins the two races. Even button and Trulli could overtake the points lead in 4 races.

BTW clinching means that there is NO way that anyone could catch him in the race. And that happens when the gap between 1 and 2 in the points race is more than 10 x the number of races remaining. So next race, even is MS wins and Rubens gets 0 points, the gap only goes to 28 points or 3 races. So with 9 races left at this point, if RB continues to come in 2nd in every race while MS wins, MS doesn't clinch until after the 16th race out of 18.
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  #119  
Old 06-22-2004, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
So with 9 races left at this point, if RB continues to come in 2nd in every race while MS wins, MS doesn't clinch until after the 16th race out of 18.
You're forgetting one thing - per team orders, Reubens will NEVER beat Michael.
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  #120  
Old 06-22-2004, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
As for the move, why is it questional. You can pass as soon as you can see a green flag, or past the corner showing a yellow flag. What he did was perfectly legal, no matter who he was passing.
Wrong.

Overtaking on the lap that the Safety Car leaves the track is not allowed under the rules.

Spoonface's move on the #2 driver was investigated by the stewards because at first, MSchumacher was listed as P1 at the end of the same lap that the SC left the track. However, they (stewards) have now explained that this was a "timing" error, and was automatically corrected ... The corrected timing showed that the #2 car was in P1 by (cough) 0.013 seconds. At 350km/h down the straight away, this would mean that he lead Spoonface by 1.2 METERS as they crossed the start/finish line.





Whatever ...




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  #121  
Old 06-22-2004, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick 520iAT
Wrong.

Overtaking on the lap that the Safety Car leaves the track is not allowed under the rules.

Spoonface's move on the #2 driver was investigated by the stewards because at first, MSchumacher was listed as P1 at the end of the same lap that the SC left the track. However, they (stewards) have now explained that this was a "timing" error, and was automatically corrected ... The corrected timing showed that the #2 car was in P1 by (cough) 0.013 seconds. At 350km/h down the straight away, this would mean that he lead Spoonface by 1.2 METERS as they crossed the start/finish line.





Whatever ...




-
What constitutes a timing error, anyway? WTF.
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  #122  
Old 06-22-2004, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick 520iAT
Wrong.

Overtaking on the lap that the Safety Car leaves the track is not allowed under the rules.

Spoonface's move on the #2 driver was investigated by the stewards because at first, MSchumacher was listed as P1 at the end of the same lap that the SC left the track. However, they (stewards) have now explained that this was a "timing" error, and was automatically corrected ... The corrected timing showed that the #2 car was in P1 by (cough) 0.013 seconds. At 350km/h down the straight away, this would mean that he lead Spoonface by 1.2 METERS as they crossed the start/finish line.





Whatever ...


-
Didn't Shumi LOOSE the race last year but a very similar time?
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  #123  
Old 06-22-2004, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berford
What constitutes a timing error, anyway?
Taking 2 hours to realize it took someone 17 seconds to leave a car.
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  #124  
Old 06-22-2004, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick 520iAT
Wrong.

Overtaking on the lap that the Safety Car leaves the track is not allowed under the rules.

Spoonface's move on the #2 driver was investigated by the stewards because at first, MSchumacher was listed as P1 at the end of the same lap that the SC left the track. However, they (stewards) have now explained that this was a "timing" error, and was automatically corrected ... The corrected timing showed that the #2 car was in P1 by (cough) 0.013 seconds. At 350km/h down the straight away, this would mean that he lead Spoonface by 1.2 METERS as they crossed the start/finish line.





Whatever ...




-

The official live timing showed MS as second and RB as first. Noone corrected and changed anything. Period.

You guys are trying too hard to prove that Michael is winning with illegal methods. Who used illegal brake ducts ?

Michael's attempt was very risky and he had a big huge luck. Had Rubens lifted his right foot from the gas for just the fraction of a second, we would've seen a driver-through penalty for Michael.
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  #125  
Old 06-22-2004, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Baumann
Had Rubens lifted his right foot from the gas for just the fraction of a second, we would've seen a driver-through penalty for Michael.
I really doubt it.

I think most drivers would have gotten a drive-through for playing it that close.
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