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  #1  
Old 06-21-2004, 11:24 AM
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Andy's first National Tour (Toledo)

Wow, not only was D Stock the biggest class with 25 drivers, but it looks like all the heavy hitters decided to show up and run in D Stock this weekend. We had people like Mark Daddio driving the Grassroots Motorsports’ SRT-4, G.H. Sharp in his 330Ci, Jack Burns in his 330i, Jeff Robinson in his Type-R and many other top drivers from all over the country. I think it was Jack Burns who said, “Take a good look at the top five guys in DS this weekend, this will give you a good idea of what Topeka will look like, cause they’re pretty much all here.” To say I was a little intimidated would be an understatement.

Mike Mitchell who is a member of the Northwest Ohio Region, graciously allowed me to co-drive his bone stock ’04 BMW 330Ci this weekend. The two things this car really had going for it, was a winning alignment done by [our own] Randy Forbes and a set of half used Hoosier A3S04s (that I have been running on all year).

Friday afternoon, Mike and I get in about 3 practice runs on the Test & Tune course. I was trying to get a feel for the car and Mike was trying to get a feel for the Hoosiers (he typically runs on the Victoracers). The car pretty much felt like mine, however since my car has the DA Konis and stiffer front sway bar, I noticed a lot more bodyroll in Mike’s car, which took quite a while to get use to. The other major thing that I noticed was not about the car, but was about the concrete surface at the Toledo Express Airport. Boy, this stuff did not feel like concrete, it barely felt like asphalt. The concrete is only 3 years old and is really smooth. The concrete has a grain that runs the length of the 25’ x 25’ blocks and can really change the grip of a corner depending on which way the grain is running. Also, since the concrete is fairly new, there is a layer of really fine concrete dust over the entire course. Until that dust gets thrown from the line and some rubber gets put down, it can make for some very slippery conditions.

On Saturday I felt really awkward during my three runs. I’m not sure if it was the unfamiliar car (bodyroll), the slick concrete surface, or the tire pressures we were running, but I think it was combination of all of the above. My first run on cold tires and a fairly slick surface, I pushed a little too hard and almost sent the car spinning three separate times during the run. On my second run, I dialed it down a notch in those three areas and put together a better run. On my last run, I pushed hard in all the right areas, had a great run coming, then screwed up and pushed really bad in one corner which took away all that time I had just picked up in the first half of the course. My last run was my quickest by 1/10th. After day one, I was sitting in 13th position.

On Sunday I felt a little more confident in my runs. It was a little warmer, there was a lot more rubber down on the course from the following day and Mike and I adjusted the tire pressures that made the car feel a lot better. On my first run with cold tires, I ran a time that was not too far off from the leaders. My second run was even better getting down into the 49s. On my last run, I was half way through the course, knowing this was my best run yet (thinking low to mid 49), it was about that moment I was thinking that, that I clipped a cone with the back tire. At that point I knew that run was over… that has got to be one of the worst feeling in the world, especially when you know this was going to be the best run of the day. The top half of the field started putting some good runs together. Even though I know I drove a lot better on Sunday, I ended up dropping one position and ended up 14th overall.

I am quite happy with my 14th place finish this weekend, considering this is my first year autoxing and I was co-driving a bone stock 330Ci that wasn’t mine. I had a great time!! I can’t help but wonder where I would have placed driving a well prepared 330Ci. You might very well see me competing in D Stock next year!!

Results : http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/Fil...totour-sun.pdf







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Last edited by Andy; 06-23-2004 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 06-21-2004, 04:57 PM
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Great write up, as always!!

Good to see you that you are always trying to improve. So, are you bored with OVR now??
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Old 06-21-2004, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Renee
Great write up, as always!!

Good to see you that you are always trying to improve. So, are you bored with OVR now??
Thanks Renee!!


OVR? What's that? We haven't had a local race in Columbus for I don't know how long (well, ok since last month). I'm looking forward to a few local races... I'm tired of all this traveling stuff. I think the next OVR event is in 3 weeks. I'll be there for that one!!
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Old 06-22-2004, 08:35 AM
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Here are a few pics from the event. I couldn't find any of me (maybe they only take pics of the fast guys. ).

More pics can be found here.


Mark Daddio (1st place DS):







G.H. Sharp (3rd place DS):





Jack Burns (9th place DS):





Jeff Robinson (16th place DS):

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Old 06-22-2004, 09:12 AM
Mike48162 Mike48162 is offline
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Toledo Tour stuff

Yes, the Toledo National Tour was a fantanstic weekend...great weather, great site, great course and especially if you drove in DS, great competition. Jack said look at the top five cars, but then (after Daddio .7 over Grainger) 2nd though 8th place over the TWO days is separated by less that 5 tenths!...with five cars 4th-8th separated by less than 2 tenths! And this on a fast course on a fun but unforgiving surface. One small mistake cost 3-5 tenths.

Or look at that looking at the PAX results: http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/ind...our_toledo.pdf
DS occupied 9 of the 50 or so top spots, with over 2/3s (17) of the class in the top 100 times. Finishing in the top 1/3 on PAX at a well attended National Tour is a great performance.

This is Mike, owner of Andy's demonstration Sport (not Performance) Package BMW 330ci. I had a ball running on Andy's Hoosiers...though I didn't learn to push them until 3rd run Sunday. Especially when hot they drive a lot tighter than Victoracers, with less sliding/squeal approaching the limit...but near/at the limit with the stiff sidewall I'd have to say that they might be easier to drive fast than the Kumhos. Kumhos start to squeal quietly as you approach the limit, but then as you head to the limit (which is close but not at Hoosier limit) they get more mushy and slide more (wasting time) at the limit. All this comment is about wide, faster maneuvers on a tour/cendiv type course...not sure about tighter work on a more typical local course.

You know Andy with only 4000 miles on my car, it's still got some breaking in to do, and should be a bit quicker down the road.

Andy did not mention (and I think important to a better handling car on Sunday) that I did remember on this day to bring down the tire warmers. Most all of the class was on Hoosiers, so getting tires hot was a real advantage...and I note that 13 of 15 top finishing cars had codrivers, and many of these used warmers front and back. (The only top cars without codrivers were Jeff and Jack).

Also, after runs on Saturday a clunk from the front end driving home wound up being the driver's side front sway bar bushing had worked loose from the bracket...I'm still blaming this for the car pushing out and hitting that exit cone on the last fast turn on my last run (which was a good one) on Saturday. I do have a new H&R bar on the way to arrive in time for Peru this weekend, but was wondering if anyone has had any experience with stock front bar bushings working their way loose? It slid down the bar to the inside, and was easy to put back...easier than the plastic BMW undercarraige cover of course!

Here's pictures from that event courtesy of Jeff Cashmore (I see now Andy posted a few, boy Daddio really works the whatever out of that Neon), who drives a yellow MR2 VERY quickly in CS... http://www.cashmo.org/2004/04toledotour.html ...a couple of nice shots of 330's at speed (Jack's and Sharp's car being codriven)....and hey Andy if you thought my stock shocks were soft check out the Prelude! Also nice sequence of shots of the white 128 Mustang getting style points (but probably adding tenths) catching the back end diving through the last corner heading to the finish on Sunday. My BMW must have looked a bit similar its last time though this corner...no, I'm not going to say who was driving!

The course was a ball. Both days a fast back section...I'll try to describe it...was a three widely separated, staggered (like going down a ladder) gates. The entry and exit gates were fairly open, however the middle gate was tighter and longer....more of a shute...still very fast but if you were just a bit off line and had to correct too much on exit you tended to sashay and be more exciting than you had planned for (right Andy?)

MIke M
#190 DS
Monroe MI

PS. Oh and Randy, your front alignment still sucks (kidding) though atleast this time I beat
Souder! Sorry we missed you in Toledo!

Last edited by Mike48162; 06-22-2004 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 06-22-2004, 09:13 AM
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Funny... Daddio's Neon doesn't "look" that composed and graceful from those shots, but then again, it's not a beauty contest, either. It definitely has weight and power in its favor. The BMW's look rather nicely composed, as we might suspect here on this board.
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Old 06-22-2004, 09:59 AM
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I think it's excellent that BMW has given their fine "Xi" AWD system to Dodge for the SRT-4.

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Old 06-22-2004, 10:31 AM
Mike48162 Mike48162 is offline
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Stock 330 shocks vs. DA Koni's

Not sure if I am using interface correctly (trying to attach pictures)
but pics show stock #190 BMW car (perhaps driven more sloppily by me)
leaning quite a bit more than the Sharp BMW on double adjustable Koni's.

Cool....Pics were added as thumbs...but now I see that this is not GH driving
his car...I think it's his codriver...so maybe it's not being driven as
hard as GH would have...but other pics show car leaning quite a bit
more with stock shocks.

Also GH's is a 2001...note headlights etc.
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Old 06-22-2004, 10:48 AM
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Hi Mike!! Welcome to Bimmerfest!!

Great write up, especially about the difference between the Victoracers and the Hoosiers!! Yes, those tire blankets made a big difference on Sunday, so much in fact, that I plan to purchase some of that material and make a set up of my own before Peru this weekend.

Great description of the course too. … and yes, on my first run on Saturday I got a good view of the fast section out the side window!! I was just doing my job as the tire warmer!!

Thanks again Mike for allowing me to co-drive. I’m willing to return the favor anytime!!
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Old 06-22-2004, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike48162
Stock 330 shocks vs. DA Koni's ...
WOW!! Great find on those pictures!! That's you and Sharp's co-driver in the exact same corner at the exact same angle. That really shows what a set of Konis and a front sway bar can do for a car. Great find!!

Where did you find those pictures? I've been trying to find some more to see if anyone got any pics of either one of us. Did you find any of me driving?
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Old 06-22-2004, 11:05 AM
Mike48162 Mike48162 is offline
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Thumbs up Toledo Tour pics...

Where did you find those pictures? I've been trying to find some more to see if anyone got any pics of either one of us. Did you find any of me driving?[/QUOTE]

Yes I think there's a good close up of you in the car on 3rd page of Nat Tour pics at
www.autox4u.com
A great autox site

Got it in email through Evolution forum....you should subscribe...you
can do this by going to the Evolution site.

Got to run...later

MIke M
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Old 06-22-2004, 11:23 AM
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There was only one of me...





...and one of you.

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Old 06-22-2004, 12:16 PM
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the swaybar bushing issue is common - , swapping to the Ground Control E46 M3 adjustable bar will resolve that issue for you

shocks do not limit body roll, they only change the amount of time it takes to get to the same angle of body roll, the swaybar above will change the amount of roll

GH was pretty upset about DNF'ing his first two runs and then running out of gas on his 3rd run on Sunday; new car blues
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Old 06-22-2004, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamZ4
GH was pretty upset about DNF'ing his first two runs and then running out of gas on his 3rd run on Sunday; new car blues

GH was 1/10th off the lead after day one. I was really rooting for him to put the smack down on Daddio and his GRM SRT-4, but after I saw what happen on Sunday I could tell he had to be pretty pissed. I didn't know about him running out of gas (I assume you mean fuel starvation?).

I experienced fuel starvation on my last run (on Sunday)... it was after I coned the run so it really didn't matter. I was more worried for you Mike!! I forgot to ask, did you experience any fuel starvation on your last run? It happened to me at the exit of that right-hand turn-around in the back (right before the fast section).
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Old 06-22-2004, 01:05 PM
Mike48162 Mike48162 is offline
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"shocks do not limit body roll, they only change the amount of time it takes to get to the same angle of body roll, the swaybar above will change the amount of roll"

Agree, but I'm thinking that because with stiffer shocks it takes just a bit longer for the car to 'set' entering a corner that overall it gives transitioning moves a bit more 'seat of the pants' feel.

Also, watching Jack B. head through the slalom, because the car with the stiffer shocks rolled more 'slowly' when going side to side it appeared that overall his car seemed to stay flatter(?). Or maybe Jack just drives better?

Finally, I never had a co-driver at a 'big' event before, but it is *really* educational to be able to watch your car being driven through the course...and being able to compare it with better prepared/well driven cars.

"GH was pretty upset about DNF'ing his first two runs and then running out of gas on his 3rd run on Sunday; new car blues"

Yes, Daddio left the door open a bit and was surprised GH didn't pounce. One time we had a fuel starvation problem...in the sweeper leading to the long, fast stretch on Sunday...in a 330 I guess it will be better to have close to if not a half tank of fuel.

And I can relate to the 'new car blues' moving to a one wheel drive car from a four wheel drive Eclipse GSX.
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Old 06-22-2004, 01:11 PM
Mike48162 Mike48162 is offline
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Shocks/body roll question

Have heard it said that stiffer shocks slows heard body roll enterning a corner,
but then do stiffer shocks mean the car leaving a corner will return to flat/no body roll position slower as well?
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Old 06-22-2004, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike48162
Have heard it said that stiffer shocks slows heard body roll enterning a corner,
but then do stiffer shocks mean the car leaving a corner will return to flat/no body roll position slower as well?

I think that a stiff compression setting is going to work like stiffer springs, and help slow the body roll. I think the rebound adjustment will control how slowly or quickly the car comes back.

Is this correct?
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Old 06-22-2004, 05:47 PM
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In a word, no.

I posted a chart here a while back (actually a jpg) that will get you part of the way there to understand it. But it's a guideline, not 100% true for every situation. Here it is again.
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Old 06-23-2004, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamZ4
the swaybar bushing issue is common - , swapping to the Ground Control E46 M3 adjustable bar will resolve that issue for you

shocks do not limit body roll, they only change the amount of time it takes to get to the same angle of body roll, the swaybar above will change the amount of roll

GH was pretty upset about DNF'ing his first two runs and then running out of gas on his 3rd run on Sunday; new car blues
Mark, OT, have you had any problems with the E46 bar clunking on your Z? Ken and I installed the bar on his M3 and we are not impressed with the endlink design. Couple problems:

1) The split lock washers they provide to secure the ball end to the bar actually limit the range of motion of the ball end. We were as careful as we could be to align them so they wouldn't bind at the wheel travel / steering extremes, but they still do. Removing the washers would cure the range of motion issue, but it would cause other problems...

2) There is a fair amount of play in the bolt going through the ball end. GC's solution to this problem is to crank down as hard as you can on the bolt / locknut, but it doesn't seem like a bright idea.

John
95 M3
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Old 06-23-2004, 07:21 AM
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Jeff Cashmore sent me a few sequence shots of me from Saturday and thought I would share. I attached them to the first post in the thread.
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Old 06-23-2004, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
I think that a stiff compression setting is going to work like stiffer springs, and help slow the body roll. I think the rebound adjustment will control how slowly or quickly the car comes back.

Is this correct?
It would seem to me that you would want to be very careful with increases in compression. In fact, for a car that is as turn-in challenged as most BMWs are I would think that you'd want the front compression as low as possible so the car would turn in hard.

Conversely to the "jacking down" that can occur with lots of rebound damping, excessive compression would seem to cause "jacking up" especially through fast transitions like slaloms. I think that would be Bad.

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Old 06-23-2004, 01:32 PM
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Thanks for the write up, Andy - it's good to find out where you are - that way you'll what it will take to get where you want to go.
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Old 06-23-2004, 02:14 PM
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Thanks for the write up, Andy - it's good to find out where you are - that way you'll what it will take to get where you want to go.

Thanks Scott!! My thoughts exactly!!
This past weekend gave me a taste of what I’ll be shooting for, next year.
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Old 06-25-2004, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike48162
Yes, the Toledo National Tour was a fantanstic weekend...

PS. Oh and Randy, your front alignment still sucks (kidding) though atleast this time I beat
Souder! Sorry we missed you in Toledo!
Glad you guys had such a learning experience

I went out there to see you the weekend before (Pro Solo) but I guess you din't make the rollcall. I had too much going on both Saturday & Sunday to visit during The Tour.

The black car's repaired now, it just needs to be put back together (by the dealer). Gray car is next in line...
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