Dismal 3er Sales

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Yes, but I think its safe that Honda has mastered the 4 banger. I would buy a Japanese 4 banger, a german one... not so much. Maybe my perception is incorrect but I can tell you it is a shared delusion.

You do know the original M3 was a 4 cylinder, right?

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Yes, but I think its safe that Honda has mastered the 4 banger. I would buy a Japanese 4 banger, a german one... not so much. Maybe my perception is incorrect but I can tell you it is a shared delusion.

4 cylinder BMW's have been present in most world markets for many years. They know what they're doing.

People currently in power like to tell you what you can eat, drink, and drive. They know what's best for you. I think car companies should be allowed to make any car and let people decide what they want. What would happen if CAFE was scrapped ? Lots of folks would still buy hybrids like the Prius but others that weren't concerned about mpg would buy cars and SUVs that don't get good mileage. Everybody would be happy except the politicians that know what's best for you.

Originally Posted by mclaren

People currently in power like to tell you what you can eat, drink, and drive. They know what's best for you. I think car companies should be allowed to make any car and let people decide what they want. What would happen if CAFE was scrapped ? Lots of folks would still buy hybrids like the Prius but others that weren't concerned about mpg would buy cars and SUVs that don't get good mileage. Everybody would be happy except the politicians that know what's best for you.

Because everybody pollutes the same air and consumes the same natural resources that are not infinite. In the same sense manufacturers should have no standards to enter a market (FCC, FDA etc.), ponzi schemes should be okay and everybody should be on their own to decide what they do no matter hiw it affects others as long as they have money - including our neighbor parking a couple of F16 at their yard. In other words regulation through governing bodies (this is what law is) within a democratic framework, structure, willingness to cooperate with each other, are reasons we can currently drive our BMWs - the reason our civilization was able to develop them.

well said

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Anyone know the production numbers of 328 vs 335? I would suspect that the 328 makes up a larger percentage of 3 series made. Also, no new coupe - that has to be affecting sales with a pending redesign.

As for 4 cylinders... If i wanted a 4 cylinder - I would buy a Honda - they have more experience with 4 bangers anyway.

Hopefully they will continue to improve the sixes.

BMW's been building 4 cylinder engines for as long as, if not longer than Honda has. BMW sells cars around the world - not just in the US, they've offered 4 cylinder engines in those markets for generations, turbos too.

In fact, most engines built by BMW since its inception have been 4's, not 6's.

So it ain't the "feds" ...

Originally Posted by Stavrs

Because everybody pollutes the same air and consumes the same natural resources that are not infinite. In the same sense manufacturers should have no standards to enter a market (FCC, FDA etc.), ponzi schemes should be okay and everybody should be on their own to decide what they do no matter hiw it affects others as long as they have money - including our neighbor parking a couple of F16 at their yard. In other words regulation through governing bodies (this is what law is) within a democratic framework, structure, willingness to cooperate with each other, are reasons we can currently drive our BMWs - the reason our civilization was able to develop them.

^| This

Originally Posted by Stavrs

Because everybody pollutes the same air and consumes the same natural resources that are not infinite. In the same sense manufacturers should have no standards to enter a market (FCC, FDA etc.), ponzi schemes should be okay and everybody should be on their own to decide what they do no matter hiw it affects others as long as they have money - including our neighbor parking a couple of F16 at their yard. In other words regulation through governing bodies (this is what law is) within a democratic framework, structure, willingness to cooperate with each other, are reasons we can currently drive our BMWs - the reason our civilization was able to develop them.

So because somebody with money might park a couple of F16s in their yard translates into allowing our "leaders" to tell us that we have to drive a car that gets 50 miles to the gallon ? Where do I get to say that the people that spent us into a 16 trillion dollar debt should be in jail ? Those are the folks that you think have the judgment to tell us what we should drink, eat, and drive.

Originally Posted by mclaren

So because somebody with money might park a couple of F16s in their yard translates into allowing our "leaders" to tell us that we have to drive a car that gets 50 miles to the gallon ? Where do I get to say that the people that spent us into a 16 trillion dollar debt should be in jail ? Those are the folks that you think have the judgment to tell us what we should drink, eat, and drive.

Can you remember how this massive deficit started?

Originally Posted by mclaren

So because somebody with money might park a couple of F16s in their yard translates into allowing our "leaders" to tell us that we have to drive a car that gets 50 miles to the gallon ? Where do I get to say that the people that spent us into a 16 trillion dollar debt should be in jail ? Those are the folks that you think have the judgment to tell us what we should drink, eat, and drive.

No clue what the logic behind you moving from regulating mpg to the deficit is but seriously it makes no sense.

To answer this completely separate comment without getting into politics that do not belong here, if you are not happy with something you exercise your right to vote given to you by the rest of the society you live in.

Originally Posted by thegandalf

Can you remember how this massive deficit started?

Yeah, it started in the 1780s and has gotten worse ever since... Lol

I drive BMW for performance, luxury and handling. If I want an efficient 4 cylinder I will go with Honda that has been doing since in the 1950s.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Yeah, it started in the 1780s and has gotten worse ever since... Lol

I drive BMW for performance, luxury and handling. If I want an efficient 4 cylinder I will go with Honda that has been doing since in the 1950s.

LOL!!!!

Back on subject: I mostly agree with your comments, but I wouldn't just categorize all 4 cylinder engines as lacking performance... I still have to test drive the F30 328 but a few years back I drove a 320d in Northern France and that thing was way more lively than I expeted!

Originally Posted by thegandalf

LOL!!!!

Back on subject: I mostly agree with your comments, but I wouldn't just categorize all 4 cylinder engines as lacking performance... I still have to test drive the F30 328 but a few years back I drove a 320d in Northern France and that thing was way more lively than I expeted!

Good point, i definitele was not talking about diesels... I don't even know how to spell deisels... LOL

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Yeah, it started in the 1780s and has gotten worse ever since... Lol

I drive BMW for performance, luxury and handling. If I want an efficient 4 cylinder I will go with Honda that has been doing since in the 1950s.

I agree 100%. At the point that cars become just another appliance watch the sales of new cars bottom out. If it is just to get you from point A to point B, why not buy a 4 cyl reliable car, change the oil once or twice a year and keep it for 200k or 15 years? If there is no enjoyment or fun factor in the equation why would you bother buying a new one every 3-5 years? N4S

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Yeah, it started in the 1780s and has gotten worse ever since... Lol

I drive BMW for performance, luxury and handling. If I want an efficient 4 cylinder I will go with Honda that has been doing since in the 1950s.

When is the last time you've driven a 4-cyl Honda Accord? There is no comparison to the 4-cyl 328i. The Honda is lethargic at best, especially when in motion and you want to accelerate. It doesn't really get any better mpg (combined 26 vs 27). It is cheaper in just about every way and boasts a larger engine with much worse performance. There is nothing to love about the Accord, other than that it is relatively cheap, sits 4 adults, has a large trunk and is probably a bullet-proof car for the most part up to 100,000 miles and beyond. If that gets you excited go get one.

In short, I think you jest comparing the 328i to a Honda. The 328i has get up and go, premium feel, and handles itself well. The Accord is an economy people mover. They SHOULD be different cars, since they DRIVE like night and day difference.

Originally Posted by cwinter

When is the last time you've driven a 4-cyl Honda Accord? There is no comparison to the 4-cyl 328i. The Honda is lethargic at best, especially when in motion and you want to accelerate. It doesn't really get any better mpg (combined 26 vs 27). It is cheaper in just about every way and boasts a larger engine with much worse performance. There is nothing to love about the Accord, other than that it is relatively cheap, sits 4 adults, has a large trunk and is probably a bullet-proof car for the most part up to 100,000 miles and beyond. If that gets you excited go get one.

In short, I think you jest comparing the 328i to a Honda. The 328i has get up and go, premium feel, and handles itself well. The Accord is an economy people mover. They SHOULD be different cars, since they DRIVE like night and day difference.

I can attest to your comments! The i4 engine of my current (and soon to be former) Accord (2010) takes a long time to get the car moving (car is heavy and the torque kicks in pretty late in the game....) They might have improved this for the 2013 model, but the numbers are nowhere close what a 328i (even without the sport treatment) can deliver.

Originally Posted by cwinter

When is the last time you've driven a 4-cyl Honda Accord? There is no comparison to the 4-cyl 328i. The Honda is lethargic at best, especially when in motion and you want to accelerate. It doesn't really get any better mpg (combined 26 vs 27). It is cheaper in just about every way and boasts a larger engine with much worse performance. There is nothing to love about the Accord, other than that it is relatively cheap, sits 4 adults, has a large trunk and is probably a bullet-proof car for the most part up to 100,000 miles and beyond. If that gets you excited go get one.

In short, I think you jest comparing the 328i to a Honda. The 328i has get up and go, premium feel, and handles itself well. The Accord is an economy people mover. They SHOULD be different cars, since they DRIVE like night and day difference.

You are comparing turbo to non-turbo which is fine since when I say Honda I really mean Asain brands. For example Hyundai 4 Cylinder turbo with 274 HP, 269 LB of torque and 24/35 MPG.

Come on boys the Jap/Koreans have mastered that market due to their market conditions. Just like Germans have mastered road handling at high speeds thanks to their market conditions which include the design of their highways.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

You are comparing turbo to non-turbo which is fine since when I say Honda I really mean Asain brands. For example Hyundai 4 Cylinder turbo with 274 HP, 269 LB of torque and 24/35 MPG.

Come on boys the Jap/Koreans have mastered that market due to their market conditions. Just like Germans have mastered road handling at high speeds thanks to their market conditions which include the design of their highways.

You're the one that brought up the Honda, not me. :-)

If you're referring to the Sonata, then yes, the engine stats are slightly bumped but we all know engine stats are just part of the equation. The Sonata is slower to 60 mph and there aren't many factory options to get a sporty drive. But then again, the car is also much cheaper (and a much better buy than an Accord in my opinion.)

I still don't understand your aversion to the 4 cyl BMW. As pointed out, BMW has been building these for decades and this is a great engine with a great transmission and yields very good fuel economy. If you want 6 cyls to make you feel better the 335i is still here. Recall even on the latest A4 the consensus is that the 2.0L turbo is the better engine compared to the V6.

55 times winner in International Engine of the Year awards - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ne_of_the_Year

I thin you are missing my point. To me its not worth it to buy a BMW with a 4 cylinder. If I have to settle for a 4 cylinder than I might as well get a Honda. This is just my opinion.

No one has to agree as obviously no one is going to change my mind.

Originally Posted by chrischeung

55 times winner in International Engine of the Year awards - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ne_of_the_Year

Most of those wins are not for the 4 cylinders...

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

I thin you are missing my point. To me its not worth it to buy a BMW with a 4 cylinder. If I have to settle for a 4 cylinder than I might as well get a Honda. This is just my opinion.

No one has to agree as obviously no one is going to change my mind.

It's been repeatedly pointed out to you BMW's been building 4 cylinder engines of very high merit and performance for generations. You don't want to hear it for some reason.

However, there are generally a lot of knowledgable people here wrt BMW, so speaking as you do makes you seem as if you really don't know or understand the marque.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

I thin you are missing my point. To me its not worth it to buy a BMW with a 4 cylinder. If I have to settle for a 4 cylinder than I might as well get a Honda. This is just my opinion.

You're missing the point that most people think that your opinion is outdated and prejudiced, and that you have not provided any recent objective, relevant fact or evidence to the contrary, which is what most people have been trying to present.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

I thin you are missing my point. To me its not worth it to buy a BMW with a 4 cylinder. If I have to settle for a 4 cylinder than I might as well get a Honda. This is just my opinion.

No one has to agree as obviously no one is going to change my mind.

This reminds me of something a co-worker said of his son pondering a vehicle he might get once he turns 16. He really wants a truck and said he wouldn't be caught dead in a mini van, he'd rather walk. Understandable sentiment, but my co-worker told him: "Son, you haven't been walking enough."

You haven't been driving a Honda Accord enough, apparently. I still remember mine.

BMW started selling 4-cylinder engines in North America 50 years ago.