So, F10 drivers, what is your gross income?

Originally Posted by tadtaggert

I see this all the time and it pisses me off, people just don't understand taxes, capital gains to be specific.

Let's say that over the course of a year I save $10,000 from my salary, you have to take into account that I have already paid INCOME TAX on the salary. I now put that $10,000 in the bank where it earns interest. Any interest I receive is taxed at the capital gain rate of 15%.

If I buy $10K worth of stock and later sell it for $15K, I pay the same 15% on the gain, or the $5K I made on the investment.

Those that save well (from any investments they may make) benefit from this. Sure those that make more might find it easier to save, but anyone can take advantage of this IF they plan and save well.

There are those that reach a level of investment that they don't have to work, they can live off of the returns of their investments. That doesn't mean that their INCOME TAX is 15%, they were just smart enough to save and use a portion of the tax code available to everyone.

This is starting to feel like a facebook debate. Of course everything you say is exactly correct.

So, is the next thread going to be about what our religion is? Or our political party? We might as well hit all three of the don't talk about unless you want an argument subjects.

Originally Posted by tadtaggert

I see this all the time and it pisses me off, people just don't understand taxes, capital gains to be specific.

Let's say that over the course of a year I save $10,000 from my salary, you have to take into account that I have already paid INCOME TAX on the salary. I now put that $10,000 in the bank where it earns interest. Any interest I receive is taxed at the capital gain rate of 15%.

If I buy $10K worth of stock and later sell it for $15K, I pay the same 15% on the gain, or the $5K I made on the investment.

Those that save well (from any investments they may make) benefit from this. Sure those that make more might find it easier to save, but anyone can take advantage of this IF they plan and save well.

There are those that reach a level of investment that they don't have to work, they can live off of the returns of their investments. That doesn't mean that their INCOME TAX is 15%, they were just smart enough to save and use a portion of the tax code available to everyone.

The simple explanation is that if you invest $10k and you later sell it for $15k and you made $5k, the $5k is income - what else would it be? Income you made through your efforts, similar to the income you make through employment. Employment income is also because of your efforts and the investment you made to have the skills you have to make the income. Are we saying it requires less effort to make money out of investments? Then investment bankers and everybody in this business should pay 15% max on their salary too.

Originally Posted by Stavrs

Are we saying it requires less effort to make money out of investments? Then investment bankers and everybody in this business should pay 15% max on their salary too.

So the 200shares of amazon I asked my 4 guys at mssb back last march (@184 ) to buy for the hell of it was hard earned income like the guy waking up at 4 too work double shifts at mcdonalds? I find that a little abused since I was playing Xbox, partying, going to class, and working with vps and svps for an internship lol

I think just like anything there are real had workers but because i can throw money at blue chips and not notice the money gone doesn't mean it was hard. (not that I want to pay more taxes but I'd at least see the greater good if I did *and I am aware my situation does not come close to being universal)

Originally Posted by Stavrs

The simple explanation is that if you invest $10k and you later sell it for $15k and you made $5k, the $5k is income - what else would it be? Income you made through your efforts, similar to the income you make through employment. Employment income is also because of your efforts and the investment you made to have the skills you have to make the income. Are we saying it requires less effort to make money out of investments? Then investment bankers and everybody in this business should pay 15% max on their salary too.

Don't forget that a person's income is already taxed at normal rates before the investment is made. Keep in mind that for people earning under $70k it is actually TAX FREE. To move capital gains over to income would hit all classes, not just the wealthy. What it would do is prevent people from selling assets to prevent the IRS from taking a major bite out of their assets, it prevents the accumulationof wealth. Long term gains should always be taxed at a lower rate than regular income. To say otherwise would only be a sign of jealously.

Originally Posted by tadtaggert

I see this all the time and it pisses me off, people just don't understand taxes, capital gains to be specific.

Let's say that over the course of a year I save $10,000 from my salary, you have to take into account that I have already paid INCOME TAX on the salary. I now put that $10,000 in the bank where it earns interest. Any interest I receive is taxed at the capital gain rate of 15%.

If I buy $10K worth of stock and later sell it for $15K, I pay the same 15% on the gain, or the $5K I made on the investment.

Those that save well (from any investments they may make) benefit from this. Sure those that make more might find it easier to save, but anyone can take advantage of this IF they plan and save well.

There are those that reach a level of investment that they don't have to work, they can live off of the returns of their investments. That doesn't mean that their INCOME TAX is 15%, they were just smart enough to save and use a portion of the tax code available to everyone.

Totally agree with everything you say except on interest income- that is taxed as non-wage income, not a capital gain...

Originally Posted by tadtaggert

Any interest I receive is taxed at the capital gain rate of 15%.

If I buy $10K worth of stock and later sell it for $15K, I pay the same 15% on the gain, or the $5K I made on the investment.

Close.

You have to hold the investment for a year to qualify for long term capital gains at 15%. If you hold the investment for less than a year, then it is short term capital gains and that is taxed as income.

Regardless, your point is correct: If you understand and play by the rules, especially at an early age so you can build up significant long term investments, your tax burden is pretty close to 15% (probably a bit higher since you have at least some marginal income taxed at a higher rate).

-Corey

Originally Posted by Emilner

Don't forget that a person's income is already taxed at normal rates before the investment is made. Keep in mind that for people earning under $70k it is actually TAX FREE. To move capital gains over to income would hit all classes, not just the wealthy. What it would do is prevent people from selling assets to prevent the IRS from taking a major bite out of their assets, it prevents the accumulationof wealth. Long term gains should always be taxed at a lower rate than regular income. To say otherwise would only be a sign of jealously.

Capital gains ARE taxed as income and they are income - they just have different rates than employment income. Now a discussion about what the rates should be, at what income levels, the rules etc. belongs (as probably most of this thread) to a different forum - shouldn't have answered to begin with, my fault, but couldn't resist

I knew a contractor who would flip multi-million dollar homes by moving in them and waiting 2 years.
He made a boat load in the process. If you rely on employment, you have no options.
The wealthy typically do not rely on employment as their main source of income. This is the biggest difference.
Increasing the tax rate of people make over 250K year will hurt working people, not the very wealthy.
The wealthy have the options to adjust their investment stategy accordingly to maximize profit and usually this means minimize the tax burden.
I don't care how they change the laws, the rich will always pay less because they'll find way, including exploiting tax breaks designed for lower income individuals. Its nothing bad, its just natural. Everyone practices this concept at some level when preparing their taxes. The wealthy are typically much better at this or have the resourses to hire the talent to do this for them.

Originally Posted by LukeS

I don't care how they change the laws, the rich will always pay less because they'll find way, including exploiting tax breaks designed for lower income individuals. Its nothing bad, its just natural. Everyone practices this concept at some level when preparing their taxes. The wealthy are typically much better at this or have the resourses to hire the talent to do this for them.

I very much agree with you. This same concept can be extended to corporations vs. government. Corporations are (usually) run by smart business people who will "find a way" because they are much smarter and more experienced than politicians.

A great example of this is the San Francisco Happy Meal toy ban. To summarize, the ordinance banned including a free toy in a child's meal unless the meal met San Francisco's nutritional standards. Rather than modify the contents of the meal, which was what San Francisco really wanted, McDonald's simply complied by charging 10 cents for the toy instead. Likely this extra charge did not impact sales at all but instead simply increased revenue without a single change to the contents of the meal (note that in a "we're playing nice" ploy, McDonalds said they will give this 10 cents to their charity).

The crux of my frustration with government isn't that government is fair or unfair to certain demographics (e.g. certain policies "target" the middle class vs. the "wealthy"). It is that government in general is force. The original intent of government was to protect people's liberty and property. But government as of late has turned into a mechanism to take away liberty and property and, in many cases, give it to another person. So government is now a participant in plundering the very thing it was originally intended to protect (both sides of "the isle," along with their "partners in crime" the voters, are doing this).

Oh by the way, "I drive a 535." Now my post is relevant to the forum ;-)

-Corey

Originally Posted by LukeS

The wealthy have the options to adjust their investment stategy accordingly to maximize profit and usually this means minimize the tax burden.
I don't care how they change the laws, the rich will always pay less because they'll find way, including exploiting tax breaks designed for lower income individuals. Its nothing bad, its just natural.

Which makes it ok? Because (again using myself) I've been given means far beyond most, I'm absolved of having to contribute to society simply because I can play games with how and when I choose to take returns(LEGALLY )? I mean thats ok with me if people support that, but I sure won't be doing any trickle down economics, it'll simply go to getting me from circle four at Neiman to the presidents circle

Originally Posted by cordoor

Corporations are (usually) run by smart business people who will "find a way" because they are much smarter and more experienced than politicians.

Corporations are generally only accountable to boards and stockholders, which is far from what is required working in the democratic process, unless you're advocating we switch to an oligarchy and have a few "smart" people run the show . As for the smartest they'll go where the money is. If you had Bronx public school teachers making 600k+ a year I'd bet my bottom dollar both over and under qualified people would be lining up for a job.\

*and calk my responses up to true curiosity, and not combative

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

Which makes it ok? Because (again using myself) I've been given means far beyond most, I'm absolved of having to contribute to society simply because I can play games with how and when I choose to take returns(LEGALLY )? I mean thats ok with me if people support that, but I sure won't be doing any trickle down economics, it'll simply go to getting me from circle four at Neiman to the presidents circle

I am of the *opinion* (just my opinion) that you *should* contribute back to society, but that you should not be *forced* to do so. And that is why I have a problem with the level to which government has stooped: government is forcing people to be philanthropic with their property.

Again, just my opinion. To each their own

I am the first to admit I don't understand the concept of "trickle down." I think I trickle down. I started a company that now employees 20 people. These jobs didn't exist before my company was started. I suppose that is to some extent trickling down. None of my employees get a free BMW but they do get a good job that they enjoy and I hope I am treating them well and giving them incentive to continue working for me.

-Corey

cordoor, you most certainly trickle down. Even if you you didn't create a company, and just made lots of money through whatever, you would in turn be purchasing and investing in things. Rich people tend to buy a lot of stuff. Someone has to make and sell that stuff. Economic principles will ensure that this distribution is done efficiently. Government on the other hand has no such want for efficiency.

The great Milton Friedman explains the four ways to spend money, which I think sums this up very well.

Originally Posted by LukeS

I knew a contractor who would flip multi-million dollar homes by moving in them and waiting 2 years.
He made a boat load in the process. If you rely on employment, you have no options.
The wealthy typically do not rely on employment as their main source of income. This is the biggest difference.
Increasing the tax rate of people make over 250K year will hurt working people, not the very wealthy.
The wealthy have the options to adjust their investment stategy accordingly to maximize profit and usually this means minimize the tax burden.
I don't care how they change the laws, the rich will always pay less because they'll find way, including exploiting tax breaks designed for lower income individuals. Its nothing bad, its just natural. Everyone practices this concept at some level when preparing their taxes. The wealthy are typically much better at this or have the resourses to hire the talent to do this for them.

This is an odd thing to bring up here, but this thread has gone this way....

I'm of the understanding that Long Term Capital Gains are taxed ZERO if you are within the first two Tax Brackets (?). Therefore, if you show under $35K after write-offs, you pay nothing on your long term gains.

My friend has 500 shares of AAPL, which of course has been doubling over itself practically every year as the stock tries its best to keep up with the incredible and increasing company fundamental growth. At the same time, he has no "regular job", therefore aside from some short term profits he's took, he'll be well under $35K in short term gains. He plans to sell then immediately repurchase his AAPL shares this year, and will make hundreds of thousands in long term profit. Is it correct that considering the scenario I've described/painted out, he'll pay NO TAXES on those Long Term gains (hundreds of thousands)? Talk about a tax break.

Originally Posted by K-A

This is an odd thing to bring up here, but this thread has gone this way....

I'm of the understanding that Long Term Capital Gains are taxed ZERO if you are within the first two Tax Brackets (?). Therefore, if you show under $35K after write-offs, you pay nothing on your long term gains.

My friend has 500 shares of AAPL, which of course has been doubling over itself practically every year as the stock tries its best to keep up with the incredible and increasing company fundamental growth. At the same time, he has no "regular job", therefore aside from some short term profits he's took, he'll be well under $35K in short term gains. He plans to sell then immediately repurchase his AAPL shares this year, and will make hundreds of thousands in long term profit. Is it correct that considering the scenario I've described/painted out, he'll pay NO TAXES on those Long Term gains (hundreds of thousands)? Talk about a tax break.

No he will have to pay 15% tax on the long term cap gains if he sells and has ""hundreds of thousands in long term profit".

Originally Posted by laser

No he will have to pay 15% tax on the long term cap gains if he sells and has ""hundreds of thousands in long term profit".

Correct. I (my mmsb guys did cuz they seem to be nailing winners the last two years lmao)did that with CJES... Basically that with some amazon paid for my 335i lmao... 15% clipped

Wealthy avoid tax using offshore tax havens, loopholes, and tax-break laws specifically built for them.

To utilized offshore tax havens they'd need to move money all around the globe, set up some dummy corporation for tax purpose only which is very elaborate, and the scheme needs to be revised frequently whenever there are tax code changes.

Accounting firm charges 10-30% of the tax saved.... which is really big money in most cases.

In the 0-15% tax rate for upper classes I've mentioned, 15% is the maximum they would pay if they do none of above... Like Buffett or Romney (for 2 years he disclosed?)... true patriots!!!

I am guessing Ryan and Romney want to simplify this by offering 0% tax for the capital gains. No need for tax havens, moving money around etc...

Is this new 0% capital gains tax concerned with average salary men who's saving $10,000 in his savings account (over multiple years?) and invest in the stock market?

Originally Posted by goldbergx

Wealthy avoid tax using offshore tax havens, loopholes, and tax-break laws specifically built for them.

To utilized offshore tax havens they'd need to move money all around the globe, set up some dummy corporation for tax purpose only which is very elaborate, and the scheme needs to be revised frequently whenever there are tax code changes.

Accounting firm charges 10-30% of the tax saved.... which is really big money in most cases.

In the 0-15% tax rate for upper classes I've mentioned, 15% is the maximum they would pay if they do none of above... Like Buffett or Romney (for 2 years he disclosed?)... true patriots!!!

I am guessing Ryan and Romney want to simplify this by offering 0% tax for the capital gains. No need for tax havens, moving money around etc...

Is this new 0% capital gains tax concerned with average salary men who's saving $10,000 in his savings account (over multiple years?) and invest in the stock market?

I'm no expert on this, but I believe you are ignoring the fact the money is essentially inaccessible to these people at the tax rates you describe. The moment they repatriate the money, it is taxed in the usual way. So they either repatriate it and pay the tax, or they leave it in the "off shore" and it just sits there doing nothing, which means they cannot buy BMW's with it (there's my token "BMW" reference so this post is relevant to the forum ;-)

Regarding the "true patriots" comment, I guess it all depends on how you define "true patriot." Someone who willingly gives up their hard earned property to a government is not how I would define a "true patriot." I would perhaps define them as a "patriot of the state" or something to that effect.

I don't like government forcing me to do something. I want government to leave me alone as long as I don't hurt other people or steal their property. I avoid paying every single penny of tax I can. No question about it. If someone else is smarter than me and figures out how to pay even less tax than me, then they are my hero and I wish they would share their secret.

And oh yea, I also donate over 10% of my income to quality charities. So this isn't an issue about my not wanting to help out my fellow man. I just don't want to do it through government because governments are the most inefficient, wasteful, and encroaching organizations on the planet.

-Corey

There are many, many ways to bring the money back.... you are so~ innocent...

Did you hear about the famous UBS guy smuggling diamond for his client?

They do anything... legal (preferred) or not (if undetectable)...


And about true patriot comment.... when I was shopping for high-end jewelry, store manager said they could save me bunch on sales tax...

The method for saving sales tax included sending empty box to someone.... while I could take the diamond-filled something from the store right there...

I don't think this ever happens in average-end jewelry stores... but seemed very common practice there....

Would you have done it? The price was very good.... well with some sales pressure... but I didn't think it was legal, so did not take the offer....

So with this, I've qualified myself as "patriot of NJ" or sales-tax-law abiding citizen...


(I think I am talking too much here.... I will really stop writing in this thread from now on... )

Originally Posted by laser

No he will have to pay 15% tax on the long term cap gains if he sells and has ""hundreds of thousands in long term profit".

Are you sure about that? It looks like the way our current Capital Gains taxes work (until 2013 for now), if you're within the first two tax brackets in terms of "normal income", you pay 0% on Long Term Gains.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxe...vestors-1.aspx

Is there a dollar limit to when they start taxing you in this situation. A guy who reports under $20K in "normal income" but has "hundreds and thousands" in Capital Gains, seems to be able to avoid paying anything at all on those Capital Gains?

Originally Posted by K-A

Are you sure about that? It looks like the way our current Capital Gains taxes work (until 2013 for now), if you're within the first two tax brackets in terms of "normal income", you pay 0% on Long Term Gains.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxe...vestors-1.aspx

Is there a dollar limit to when they start taxing you in this situation. A guy who reports under $20K in "normal income" but has "hundreds and thousands" in Capital Gains, seems to be able to avoid paying anything at all on those Capital Gains?

Well that's an interesting article .... I'm not a tax accountant so shouldn't voice any tax advice!

(I don't do brain surgery at home either)

I stand corrected and appreciate the article!

Originally Posted by goldbergx

There are many, many ways to bring the money back.... you are so~ innocent...

Did you hear about the famous UBS guy smuggling diamond for his client?

They do anything... legal (preferred) or not (if undetectable)...


And about true patriot comment.... when I was shopping for high-end jewelry, store manager said they could save me bunch on sales tax...

The method for saving sales tax included sending empty box to someone.... while I could take the diamond-filled something from the store right there...

I don't think this ever happens in average-end jewelry stores... but seemed very common practice there....

Would you have done it? The price was very good.... well with some sales pressure... but I didn't think it was legal, so did not take the offer....

So with this, I've qualified myself as "patriot of NJ" or sales-tax-law abiding citizen...


(I think I am talking too much here.... I will really stop writing in this thread from now on... )

I'm talking too much too

I would agree that I do not know very many ways to beat the system legally or illegally.

I thought the discussion assumed legality I try my best to be legal about everything. But at the same time, I try my best to minimize my tax burden and I think that is what everyone should do.

-Corey

Originally Posted by K-A

Are you sure about that? It looks like the way our current Capital Gains taxes work (until 2013 for now), if you're within the first two tax brackets in terms of "normal income", you pay 0% on Long Term Gains.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxe...vestors-1.aspx

Is there a dollar limit to when they start taxing you in this situation. A guy who reports under $20K in "normal income" but has "hundreds and thousands" in Capital Gains, seems to be able to avoid paying anything at all on those Capital Gains?

I've read some more .... there is a dollar limit ..... when the cap gain pushes you above the lower tax brackets the regular rate kicks in.

I thought that was awfully good to be true!

Originally Posted by dunderhi

There ya go, typical middle class, you get a few bucks and you spend it all on storage locker.

I wonder how much the guys at Auction Hunters would bid on this locker.

LMAO.....YEEEEEEeeeep

Long term capital gain rates (15% for assets held over 1 year) are taxed at a lower rate than income tax because it's money that is put at risk unlike salary that is not at risk (you get the same every payday).
The argument for the elimination of lower cap. gains rates would have more validity if for instance a company can pay it's employee's changing amounts every week depending on how the company is doing week by week, that sounds rediculous right but that's the reality of investments, it's all at risk.
Also this discussion should be kept to what's legal, a number of comments talk about illegal tax avoidance.
Bottom line, people have to be incentivized to take risk. This is a capitalist country built on capitalism which means investment risk must be incentivized otherwise we're done, which by the way we might be.

Originally Posted by Diver624

Bottom line, people have to be incentivized to take risk. This is a capitalist country built on capitalism which means investment risk must be incentivized otherwise we're done, which by the way we might be.

So the lady at the McDonalds drive-thru should mosey on down to the etrade/Scottstrade office where some nubby accountant making less then 100k a year can put the little money she has in the market I don't know about other people but thankfully I had connections to important people within the investing community, who make me look smart (Eli Lilly & Co & Time Warner anyone? ). Big difference between assumed risk (me knowing the stakes and going for gold) and forcing individuals to take risks in an environment to that clearly isn't created equal. The problem with what I interpreted you saying as lets have laissez faire back is after you crush all the poor people and weed out the average people guess who becomes the new poor .

I'm trying to figure out how to get my hands some of that OBAMA money for my new M6 convert. Or at least the free iPhone.