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Motorsports, Racing & Track
From Formula One to Auto-X, discuss everything related to going fast here...

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  #1  
Old 06-25-2004, 05:54 PM
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BB330i BB330i is offline
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My opinion of DSC has changed

Hello my name is Bill.

I am a recovering DSC basher.

While I still believe DSC is not the fastest way around the track and the software needs some work to make it less intrusive, DSC has its place.

I just completed a 4 day driving school driving C5 Corvettes for the first 3 days. We had the option of disengaging the “driver assists” but we were warned that the majority of student crashes occurred when those systems were disabled. Facing a $6000 insurance deductible I chose to leave mine on.

At first I was totally annoyed with the systems constant intervention.

As time passed and my technique improved. I came to realize that I was able to place the car where I wanted without computer intervention and turn much faster lap times by applying proper eye, hand, foot and car control..

Day 4. We drove open wheel Formula Fords. No driver assists, just a purpose built race car. What a difference the prior three days made. Very little tire squeal, over and under steer controlled at will..

I learned a number of things in my 4 days at driving school.

1) I thought I was fast. In fact, I discovered I suck, I still do.

2) There is no reason to drive on public roadways with DSC off, (excepting the occasional need to light-up the rear tires) you just can’t safely drive fast enough , well, for DSC to make a difference.

3) Anyone can drive fast. Few can drive smoothly.

4) Those that drive smoothly drive fast by default.

4) I can’t wait to go back next week for the 3 day Advanced Road Racing Course.

That is my $0.02worth and I’m sticking to it.

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  #2  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:22 PM
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Raffi Raffi is offline
Hi
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Sergio, please don't read this!
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:57 PM
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SergioK SergioK is offline
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Too late... I just did!

Now, for the sake of those that know my adamant stance on this issue, Bill... I will siimply say, nicely said. (Layla's sitting next to me as I post this... saying... 'oh no!, not again!')
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  #4  
Old 06-25-2004, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergioK
Too late... I just did!

Now, for the sake of those that know my adamant stance on this issue, Bill... I will siimply say, nicely said. (Layla's sitting next to me as I post this... saying... 'oh no!, not again!')
Trust me... she's not the only one saying that....



hi layla!
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2004, 09:03 PM
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blah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB330i
[size=2]Hello my name is Bill.

I am a recovering DSC basher.
Good stuff.

I need to go to track school.
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  #6  
Old 06-25-2004, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BB330i
That is my $0.02worth and I’m sticking to it.


amen
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  #7  
Old 06-26-2004, 12:07 PM
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Hi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doeboy
Trust me... she's not the only one saying that....



hi layla!
Ditto.
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  #8  
Old 06-26-2004, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doeboy
Trust me... she's not the only one saying that....



hi layla!
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  #9  
Old 06-26-2004, 01:46 PM
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I apologize for bringing this topic up again. I felt the need to share my thoughts in light of the fact my opinion of DSC has gone 180 following my first formal training session.

Rumratt, I can’t recommend a driving school enough. Of all the things I’ve done in life, this was by far the most fun I have ever had. I’m still smiling a week and a half latter. If it is any indication of the trhill you can expect, I’m flying back tomorrow for three days of nothing but tack time.

Oh and I forgot, I also had a couple of hours of seat time in a 125cc shifter kart. I’m going to that again as well. Those things are absolutely sick.

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  #10  
Old 06-27-2004, 02:58 AM
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Great info, and what I have been saying all along.

But you do have to realize that the M and non-M DSCs are different. And since I don't have ANY experience with non-M DSC, I have to defer on that, however there is still no reasonable reason to turn it TOTALLY off on the street.

On the track, it is a different story.

Sounds like Bondurant school. I have done Roos, Barber, and Daly schools and had fun and learned a lot at all of them.
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  #11  
Old 06-27-2004, 04:17 PM
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there's a real technique to driving the latest DSC/DTC modes, once you figure it out the invasiveness goes away
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  #12  
Old 06-27-2004, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamZ4
there's a real technique to driving the latest DSC/DTC modes, once you figure it out the invasiveness goes away
Backing out of the throttle, not countersteering and trusting the car to do the right thing is so unnatural.

OTOH
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2004, 07:57 PM
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SergioK SergioK is offline
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Simple: smooth is fast and you can't be fast if you aren't smooth. :-)
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  #14  
Old 06-27-2004, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ·clyde·
Backing out of the throttle, not countersteering and trusting the car to do the right thing is so unnatural.

maybe not to a good autocrosser maybe
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  #15  
Old 06-28-2004, 10:01 AM
cenotaph cenotaph is offline
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I'll just comment that the electronics in the Vette are very different from those in the 3 series. I've read several reviews of the C5 in national magazines that praise its traction/stability control system. I've read no reviews of the 3 series that praise DSC.

Do I think traction/stability control systems can be done in such a way that they allow you to have fun at the track? Yes, the Vette and various race cars that use them are proof of that. Do I think DSC falls into this catagory? Not by a long shot. Saying you're going to stop bashing DSC because of your experience in a Vette is like saying you're going to stop bashing Windows because you used OS X for a day.
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2004, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cenotaph
I'll just comment that the electronics in the Vette are very different from those in the 3 series. I've read several reviews of the C5 in national magazines that praise its traction/stability control system. I've read no reviews of the 3 series that praise DSC.

Do I think traction/stability control systems can be done in such a way that they allow you to have fun at the track? Yes, the Vette and various race cars that use them are proof of that. Do I think DSC falls into this catagory? Not by a long shot. Saying you're going to stop bashing DSC because of your experience in a Vette is like saying you're going to stop bashing Windows because you used OS X for a day.
Cenotaph,

I agree, BMW DSC does not equal General Motors version. The issue is if you get into either of them on the track you will loose time. And if you get into them on the street you are either driving too fast or not driving well. Most likely both. No system that I’ve tried will allow you to run the circuit full throttle and have the computer fix things for you. I found that keeping just short of engaging the system is way faster. In fact, turn the system off, drive to the limits of adhesion and you will produce much faster lap times.

I proved this. I was turning 1 minute 12 second lap times in the Vette with everything on at the limit of computer intervention and two weeks later in a lumbering non traction control Cobra Mustang turned 1 minute 5 second laps just a second slower than my instructor in the same car.

So yes, I will no longer bash DSC on the street. It does a great job, I should never activate it. The track is another story.

As far as the Windows / OS X analogy, I spent more than a day with each and I feel confident in saying I know the difference. The data we downloaded from the car, the seat of the pants, and the graphs we poured over at the end of the day were proof positive.

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  #17  
Old 07-02-2004, 06:56 PM
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BB330i BB330i is offline
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Continuing my rants and raves regarding driving school.

Many on this board have suggested the best performance modification one can make is to attend an organized driving school. I am now firmly entrenched in that camp. Having finished 2 classes in the past 3 weeks I can say without hesitation that it was not only the most fun I’ve ever had in my life but also the most rewarding.

I went into my first 4 day class with the goal of becoming a better all around driver with no aspirations of racing. I left a much better driver with a burning desire to race.

I went back this week to take my new found abilities to the next level. To see if I could get my lap times into the realm of regional SCCA competition, I was pleasantly surprised.

For me there is no grater thrill than setting the car up just right for the entrance of a turn, hitting the apex perfectly and flying out of the corner to the exit full tilt into the next.

And so it goes, lap after lap from one corner to the next.

Having your favorite corner(s) were you get the car set right: brakes, heel / toe, big revs, downshift, trailing brake, wait…wait… full throttle, lift, the car rotates, full throttle, your off.

In the meantime the car that was in front you plowing his or her way around the track is left in your dust, a not so distant memory as you catch them again in a few laps.

Lesson learned in my case. Yes I would love to coax a few more HP and LB/FT of torque out of my M3 but will it make me faster? Heck no. Learning how to get more out what is already there and do it well is a much better investment IMHO.

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