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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #26  
Old 09-17-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Buying a car is not that difficult. If so many people are unable to do such a basic thing it says a lot to where this country's citizens have gone over the years. And it's not for the positive.
You are correct. But such is the current state of affairs. We live in a world overflowing with information and sorely lacking in critical thinking skills.
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  #27  
Old 09-17-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You are correct. But such is the current state of affairs. We live in a world overflowing with information and sorely lacking in critical thinking skills.
Given the size of such a purchase it amazes me why people would go into one completely clueless. I have zero sympathy for such people.
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  #28  
Old 09-17-2012, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Buying a car is not that difficult. If so many people are unable to do such a basic thing it says a lot to where this countries citizens have gone over the years. And it's not for the positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
You are correct. But such is the current state of affairs. We live in a world overflowing with information and sorely lacking in critical thinking skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Given the size of such a purchase it amazes me why people would go into one completely clueless. I have zero sympathy for such people.
Perhaps so, but it is still amazing how lacking the generally population is in basic math skills. We were in a golf shop 10 years ago and the young man behind the counter couldn't make change for a $20 without using a calculator. These are the people who are FINANCING cars. What is even more amazing is when you go into a car deal with BMW and you tell them it's a cash deal and they still make you sit through 45 minutes of Finance Manager voodoo and black magic, and the whole time you are saying "No" to everything they lay in front of you. I can only imagine what a nightmare this must be if you are leasing a vehicle. And just think, if you are the "average" consumer, that means that 50% have less intelligence and financial acumen than you. Of course, whether they are or not, most folks at least consider themselves to be "above average", which is precisely what the finance guys bank on. No one wants to appear "stupid" or "unsavvy" when the Finance Manager is tossing papers at them accompanied by sound bites summarizing a full page of size 6 font single space into a single summary sentence.
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  #29  
Old 09-17-2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
Perhaps so, but it is still amazing how lacking the generally population is in basic math skills. We were in a golf shop 10 years ago and the young man behind the counter couldn't make change for a $20 without using a calculator. These are the people who are FINANCING cars. What is even more amazing is when you go into a car deal with BMW and you tell them it's a cash deal and they still make you sit through 45 minutes of Finance Manager voodoo and black magic, and the whole time you are saying "No" to everything they lay in front of you. I can only imagine what a nightmare this must be if you are leasing a vehicle. And just think, if you are the "average" consumer, that means that 50% have less intelligence and financial acumen than you. Of course, whether they are or not, most folks at least consider themselves to be "above average", which is precisely what the finance guys bank on. No one wants to appear "stupid" or "unsavvy" when the Finance Manager is tossing papers at them accompanied by sound bites summarizing a full page of size 6 font single space into a single summary sentence.
I completely agree. I find that the sales tactics of the financing guys are very similar to those selling timeshares. Unsurprisingly, a consumer's lack of basic math skills is why timeshare sales are such a big business.
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  #30  
Old 09-18-2012, 04:21 AM
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Yet it doesn't have to be this way.

My last two buying experiences were exceptional.

A BMW with a board sponsor done over email, signed at the dealership, never met the "finance guy", great deal honored in every way.

Then just bought a Ford Expedition. The dealership bent over backwards to sell on information about the product, no sales pressure, the "finance gal" offered but said I didn't look like the type to buy extended warranty.

I'll go back to these places. The others that made me want to take a shower when I got home ...... not.
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  #31  
Old 09-18-2012, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
She noticed the information post sale. Why did she not notice it before signing the paperwork?

I see nothing deceptive or dishonest on the part of this dealer. Maybe there's more but with the little information we have everything seems legitimate on the dealers part.
OP hasn't been back since the first post. We don't know if it was initialed/signed in the paperwork or not (although, like most of you, I suspect she got caught up in the "sign here, initial here, here, here, and here" dance.

And it's surprising how effective the delay tactics are in making you less aware. On my car, the contract ended up saying I financed the entire amount (I paid cash). Finance guy put it on the wrong line, and I didn't catch it. Of course, everywhere else it was right (no payments, no lien, etc). Because of that and the fact that I had the cancelled check for the purchase I wasn't too worried - but still called to point it out since I didn't want the title to be affected. All was fine, but that is the kind of detail I normally won't miss....

Last edited by andrew b; 09-18-2012 at 04:37 AM.
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  #32  
Old 09-18-2012, 06:08 AM
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Like someone said earlier, the OP's SIL is probably payment shopping. The finance manager can play with loan duration, interest rate and other factors to meet her monthly payment requirement and yet still squeeze a little extra in there for himself.
Most people talk about sleazy car salesman, personally, I think finance manager are much worst. Don't get me wrong, not all finance managers are sleazy, but I have dealt with more than my share. In my opinion, a car buying transaction would be a lot more pleasant if one didn't have to deal the finance manager's sales pitch.
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  #33  
Old 09-18-2012, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordic_Kat View Post
Perhaps so, but it is still amazing how lacking the generally population is in basic math skills. We were in a golf shop 10 years ago and the young man behind the counter couldn't make change for a $20 without using a calculator. These are the people who are FINANCING cars. What is even more amazing is when you go into a car deal with BMW and you tell them it's a cash deal and they still make you sit through 45 minutes of Finance Manager voodoo and black magic, and the whole time you are saying "No" to everything they lay in front of you. I can only imagine what a nightmare this must be if you are leasing a vehicle. And just think, if you are the "average" consumer, that means that 50% have less intelligence and financial acumen than you. Of course, whether they are or not, most folks at least consider themselves to be "above average", which is precisely what the finance guys bank on. No one wants to appear "stupid" or "unsavvy" when the Finance Manager is tossing papers at them accompanied by sound bites summarizing a full page of size 6 font single space into a single summary sentence.
I'm also surprised by the general lack of math skills, as I've had people ask me to do basic calculations for them fairly often, even subtracting 10%. With buying cars, I've also known a few people who have gotten caught up in the "four square" and did not even know the car's actual price.

Not all dealers take advantage of this, however. I recently bought a fun, economic commuter car (cash) and helped my parents buy a truck (financed) at dealers owned by the same company. In both, the F&I people briefly asked about extras and, when told no, let it go and turned over the paperwork to be signed. With my new car, I had also written the check before even going into the F&I office which may have helped make it clear.

I just thought I'd mention this as it was nice to see, particularly as I remember that a few years ago I could not even get a salesman to give me the actual price on a car. He kept repeating, "if I have your payments as $xxx, will I earn your business today?" I finally got tired of telling him no and left.

As for the OP, I hope he and his sister-in-law are able to cancel the unwanted add ons without much drama.

Last edited by Carraway; 09-18-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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  #34  
Old 09-18-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
This is the case for the vast majority of buyers. It may not be wise on the consumer's part, but some of you are giving the average consumer way more credit for their level of intelligence than they are due. Even consumers who can afford to buy BMWs. And most consumers eyes completely glaze over when it comes to the issue of consumer finance.

I know from experience dealers operate on the theory that the majority of customers are willing and able to afford a payment of $100 - $200 more per month than they say is their maximum. And consumers routinely prove this is true. Roughly 95% of buyers are payment buyers. It may not be smart, but it is true.

This happens with men as well as women, but women tend to be a) much more trusting than men, b) much less likely to question a male "authority figure" to his face, and c) less educated about all the intricacies of consumer finance. $4,100 @ 6% for 60 months is just less than $80/month. While most people might notice that increase they are most likely to attribute it to their own lack of knowledge in knowing how to do the calculations correctly and it ends up falling into the payment range they can handle.

Dealers deal with this information every day.....and they still screw it up. The average consumer deals with it every three or four or five or ten years. Taking advantage of novice consumers who trust the dealership personnel to treat them fairly and honestly is the definition of sneaky sales tactics.

1) Whether financing or leasing you ultimately agree on a FINAL purchase price which in most cases will be translated into an explicitly stated MONTHLY payment of some kind. Yes, there might be a lot of mumble jumble regarding how that singular monthly payment figure is arrived at that the average consumer might not understand, but the bottom line and undeniable fact is the output of all that mumble jumble is that you bought a car for $xx,xxx and you will owe $xxx every month for xx months. That is what you agree to when you sign on the dotted line. Full stop. All excuses have to end here.

2) Based on the above, could there be some shannanigans or "extras" built into that final purchase price or monthly payment? YES, but as mentioned even without understanding all of the numbers that make up the final purchase price or monthly payment, you are ultimately agreeing too it. And if you don't fully understand all of the mumble jumble that makes up the final purchase price or monthly payment, then you ASK for clarification, but it is already broken down in the contract. And if you still don't understand why you need to pay $xxx every xx months, well then i have nothing more to say. In the case of the OP's SIL, she agreed to a $24,100 final purchase price and i'm 100% sure the $24,100 purchase price was not "hidden" in the fine print somewhere but was prominently stated in the contract. Another full stop.

Quite frankly, the only shady one here is the SIL, who probably has buyer's remorse and is trying to wiggle her way out of a purchase she ultimately agreed to.

Last edited by ERdiesel; 09-18-2012 at 07:20 AM.
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  #35  
Old 09-18-2012, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Carraway View Post
I just thought I'd mention this as it was nice to see, particularly as I remember that a few years ago I could not even get a salesman to give me the actual price on a car. He kept repeating, "if I have your payments as $xxx, will I earn your business today?" I finally got tired of telling him no and left.
I actually used that tactic once when buying a used car. Got out of it after the test drive and the salesman said "so, what will it take to put you in this car?".

I said "We're probably not even close, but I will give you my car in trade, nothing else down, and $XXX a month for 54 months." I'd done my homework, knew what my trade in was worth (and what I'd accept for it), and what that payment translated to given current financing rates.

It took them a little bit of work, but they made it happen. If I recall, they got to within $5 a month of my number and I took it.
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  #36  
Old 09-18-2012, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post
1) Whether financing or leasing you ultimately agree on a FINAL purchase price which in most cases will be translated into an explicitly stated MONTHLY payment of some kind. Yes, there might be a lot of mumble jumble regarding how that singular monthly payment figure is arrived at that the average consumer might not understand, but the bottom line and undeniable fact is the output of all that mumble jumble is that you bought a car for $xx,xxx and you will owe $xxx every month for xx months. That is what you agree to when you sign on the dotted line. Full stop. All excuses have to end here.

2) Based on the above, could there be some shannanigans or "extras" built into that final purchase price or monthly payment? YES, but as mentioned even without understanding all of the numbers that make up the final purchase price or monthly payment, you are ultimately agreeing too it. And if you don't fully understand all of the mumble jumble that makes up the final purchase price or monthly payment, then you ASK for clarification, but it is already broken down in the contract. And if you still don't understand why you need to pay $xxx every xx months, well then i have nothing more to say. In the case of the OP's SIL, she agreed to a $24,100 final purchase price and i'm 100% sure the $24,100 purchase price was not "hidden" in the fine print somewhere but was prominently stated in the contract. Another full stop.
You seem to be running a bit out front here. You're ignoring the other line items on a contract that can be used to bury things (the trade-in price, sales tax, registration fees, runner fee to registry, inspection fee, filing fee, and so on) that give a whole long list of items that tend to glaze someone's eyes over.

How can you do this? Easy.
  1. SIL walks into dealer,see car, says she wants it at $20k.
  2. Asks about trade-in, is told $10k
  3. Asks what payment will be. They say $220/month for 4 years.
  4. Off we go to buy it. In the "other items" list, they add $2500 service contract.
  5. Payment is reworked to $220/month for 5 years.
  6. Customer looks at 2 numbers: price of car and monthly payment. Sees what she expects.
  7. Signs on line, and leaves.
  8. Later notices payment period has changed.
  • Should she have paid more attention? Yes.
  • Do I pay more attention than that? Yes.
  • Was I once presented with the above situation (not at a BMW dealer), caught it, and refused the offer? Yes.
  • Does everyone catch it? No, contributing to the reputation of car dealers.

If you haven't played the game against a real sales weasel in your life, hey, that's great. Perhaps you never will, and perhaps you'll win when you do.

To pillory someone unsophisticated who got taken with "should have known better" seems rather harsh.
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Last edited by Zooks527; 09-18-2012 at 07:49 AM.
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  #37  
Old 09-18-2012, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post
1)
Quite frankly, the only shady one here is the SIL, who probably has buyer's remorse and is trying to wiggle her way out of a purchase she ultimately agreed to.
Wow, you are curiously rigid and presumptive about a situation you have no first hand knowledge of.

I'm betting you work at a car dealership ..... ?
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  #38  
Old 09-18-2012, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
You seem to be running a bit out front here. You're ignoring the other line items on a contract that can be used to bury things (the trade-in price, sales tax, registration fees, runner fee to registry, inspection fee, filing fee, and so on) that give a whole long list of items that tend to glaze someone's eyes over.

How can you do this? Easy.
  1. SIL walks into dealer,see car, says she wants it at $20k.
  2. Asks about trade-in, is told $10k
  3. Asks what payment will be. They say $220/month for 4 years.
  4. Off we go to buy it. In the "other items" list, they add $2500 service contract.
  5. Payment is reworked to $220/month for 5 years.
  6. Customer looks at 2 numbers: price of car and monthly payment. Sees what she expects.
  7. Signs on line, and leaves.
  8. Later notices payment period has changed.
  • Should she have paid more attention? Yes.
  • Do I pay more attention than that? Yes.
  • Was I once presented with the above situation (not at a BMW dealer), caught it, and refused the offer? Yes.
  • Does everyone catch it? No, contributing to the reputation of car dealers.

If you haven't played the game against a real sales weasel in your life, hey, that's great. Perhaps you never will, and perhaps you'll win when you do.

To pillory someone unsophisticated who got taken with "should have known better" seems rather harsh.
Regardless of the above it's as ERdiesel has stated. The items in question will be broken out separately. Auto sales contracts provide a very good break down of all the costs involved. It is the responsibility of the buyer to review and understand them.

When I bought my X5 last year I noticed two errors: There was an additional $500 on the sale price and $1,000 less on the trade in. How did I catch these errors (and I believe they were honest mistakes)? I reviewed the contract before signing.

Furthermore we're not talking about a hundred bucks or something like that. We're talking $4,100 on a $20,000 purchase. That's 20% of the price. If she did look at the price of the car (one of the two numbers you say people look at) that should stand out like a sore thumb.
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  #39  
Old 09-18-2012, 08:06 AM
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Wow, you are curiously rigid and presumptive about a situation you have no first hand knowledge of.
I am in agreement with ERdiesel. I don't see any deception or sneak having occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
I'm betting you work at a car dealership ..... ?
Please. Some of us just believe in people taking responsibility for their actions (or lack thereof as it appears to be in this case). For example we have the OP in the "Crashed computer?" thread who is having work done on his car yet has no idea whether the dealer is going to pay for it or not. It's my impression he assumes they will. And I've advised him he should know this before the work is done...regardless of who will ultimately pay for it. Despite this advice he doesn't appear to be making an effort to find out. If the dealer charges him will we hear him complain about how he was deceived?

Last edited by sunny5280; 09-18-2012 at 08:08 AM.
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  #40  
Old 09-18-2012, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
Wow, you are curiously rigid and presumptive about a situation you have no first hand knowledge of.

I'm betting you work at a car dealership ..... ?

Yes, I can be "curiously" rigid and presumptive when voicing a strong personal opinion, and i think that applies to most people when they have a strong opinion on something. And I believe EVERYONE commenting in this thread or any other thread about another person's situation is making some presumptions since none of us has any first hand knowledge of anything anyone else has posted. We go with what limited information has been disclosed.

I believe when it comes to any situation of us vs. dealer, most of "us" are quick to villainnize the dealer as evidenced in this thread regardless of the situation. The bottom line is the dealer did not force the SIL to agree to the deal, but the SIL did so willingly.

Finally, if I was to take you on that bet, you would lose because I don't work for a dealership, i don't work anywhere close to the auto industry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
You seem to be running a bit out front here. You're ignoring the other line items on a contract that can be used to bury things (the trade-in price, sales tax, registration fees, runner fee to registry, inspection fee, filing fee, and so on) that give a whole long list of items that tend to glaze someone's eyes over.

How can you do this? Easy.
  1. SIL walks into dealer,see car, says she wants it at $20k.
  2. Asks about trade-in, is told $10k
  3. Asks what payment will be. They say $220/month for 4 years.
  4. Off we go to buy it. In the "other items" list, they add $2500 service contract.
  5. Payment is reworked to $220/month for 5 years.
  6. Customer looks at 2 numbers: price of car and monthly payment. Sees what she expects.
  7. Signs on line, and leaves.
  8. Later notices payment period has changed.
  • Should she have paid more attention? Yes.
  • Do I pay more attention than that? Yes.
  • Was I once presented with the above situation (not at a BMW dealer), caught it, and refused the offer? Yes.
  • Does everyone catch it? No, contributing to the reputation of car dealers.

If you haven't played the game against a real sales weasel in your life, hey, that's great. Perhaps you never will, and perhaps you'll win when you do.

To pillory someone unsophisticated who got taken with "should have known better" seems rather harsh.

In your example, as I mentioned before, without getting into the mumble jumble of what is integrated into the final price (all those so called extras), the output of the process is that the TOTAL FINAL all in price is $xx,xxx (nothing complicated about this singular figure) and you're agreeing to pay $xxx over xx months. You even mention in your example the payment terms are modified and an additional year is added.................then consumer signs on the dotted line. The payment terms will be modified for any "extras" PRIOR to signing any contract.........not after, as you even have it in your example. So once again, before signing on the dotted line, the consumer knows Final price is $xx,xxx, payment terms are $xxx/month for $xx months. Seriously, even a child can understand and process this.

Once again, I am left scratching my head as to why people believe ignorance or "lack of sophistication" is a valid excuse to get out of personal accountability and responsibility. You agreed to xyz, live with it. It's really not that complicated.

And yes, I know that I am taking a rather harsh stance but I have a rather strong opinion on this. Short of the person being mentally incapacitated at the time of signing, there are no excuses.

Last edited by ERdiesel; 09-18-2012 at 08:21 AM.
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  #41  
Old 09-18-2012, 08:22 AM
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Regardless of the above it's as ERdiesel has stated. The items in question will be broken out separately. Auto sales contracts provide a very good break down of all the costs involved. It is the responsibility of the buyer to review and understand them.
Sure, its up to the buyer to make sure he or she is not being scam, but yet, people still get scam everyday.
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  #42  
Old 09-18-2012, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post
Short of the person being mentally incapacitated at the time of signing, there are no excuses.
Since the OP has not posted subsequent to his OP we are all making assumptions here.

I'm more often than not on your side of the personal responsibility issue.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the SIL carelessly parked her previous BMW in a flood zone and was unjustly rewarded with a total loss settlement raising all of our insurance premiums?
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  #43  
Old 09-18-2012, 09:09 AM
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Sure, its up to the buyer to make sure he or she is not being scam, but yet, people still get scam everyday.
Sad, isn't it. Gotta run...need to provide the ambassador of Nigeria with my bank account numbers so I can help him get his money out of the country. Poor guy!
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  #44  
Old 09-18-2012, 09:11 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
Since the OP has not posted subsequent to his OP we are all making assumptions here.
The question is: Which is more likely? By a far margin I believe the SIL was caught up in the excitement of buying a new car and initial / signed everything put in front of her without thoroughly reading it.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:23 PM
The X Men The X Men is online now
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
The question is: Which is more likely? By a far margin I believe the SIL was caught up in the excitement of buying a new car and initial / signed everything put in front of her without thoroughly reading it.
Just like when a guy do stupid things when he try to get into a girl's pants and get caught up in the excitement of the moment I am sure a lot of you guys know what I am talking about
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:57 PM
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Not sure what's worse here, the lack of judgement of the OP, or the ensuing 2 pages of responses, indicating so.

Hope everyone is doing well....
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:11 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bemo View Post
Not sure what's worse here, the lack of judgement of the OP, or the ensuing 2 pages of responses, indicating so.
I'd say the worst is someone who feels the need to ask "what's worse" questions while adding nothing useful themselves.
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
Sad, isn't it. Gotta run...need to provide the ambassador of Nigeria with my bank account numbers so I can help him get his money out of the country. Poor guy!
Now that's hilarious
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quagmire82 View Post
Hi all,

My sister-in-law just got CPO '09 328i with 58k miles for the asking price of 20k at a NY dealership. Her previous car was a 3-series too, but it was ruled a total loss as a result of flood damage. Solid deal I thought and told her it sounded good. I couldn't accompany her at the dealership but the carfax appeared great and it was a 1-owner car.

She signed the paperwork yesterday and called me today after looking at her receipt in a panic. The dealership charged her $1,500 for the Wheel and Tire Protection Package and $2,600 for Maintenance, and apparently, they never explained it to her or informed her.

The Wheel and Tire Package sounds like a complete waste after reading it essentially covers flats/punctures and generalized non-cosmetic damage. I don't have the particulars for the maintenance program, but after reading up on it on the BMW USA website, it sounds like it basically extends the maintenance to 6 years/100,0000 miles. Seems redundant to me as CPO covers 6 years/100,000 miles? Or maybe it is a maintenance plan exclusively through the dealership and not through BMW USA?

I'm certain the Wheel package is a crock. But how about the maintenance? I've been out of the purchasing loop for a little bit, but this seems unfair and sneaky.

Anyone know if the purchaser can someone wiggle out of these fees after the fact? Car was purchased Saturday.

Thanks a bunch gang
Difficult to judge the value of these without the details. For example if she was driving the car in NYC, the tire and wheel package might be worthwhile, DEPENDING on the coverage such as tire road hazard damage and bent wheels. If a tire & wheel package didn't cover that in NYC it wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on. Just ask the Captain.
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Old 09-19-2012, 03:46 AM
pony_trekker pony_trekker is offline
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
As tturedraider has noted, pushback on those items should be able to get them cancelled.

The wheel and tire insurance has some value, specially in high pothole areas. The price she was charged for it seems really high, based on what others have reported paying.
It used to be 595 (when I leased my 2008) which made it a great deal since you in NY, you AT LEAST went through three rims and tires in three years. When I leased in 2011 it went up dramatically to 1595 so I didn't take it.
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