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  #101  
Old 09-20-2012, 07:39 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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You two just don't get it.
Yes, we do. We get that you're happy to live in a world where people cannot do a basic such basic things as buying a car.

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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Not everyone is a genius and totally calm like you and sunny. Buying a car is a stressful experience for many and some dealers take advantage of it.
There has been no demonstration the dealer took advantage of any one. That's your speculation based on a world of mediocrity where people are unable to do some of the most basics of life's tasks.

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That's the reality even if you don't experience this issue. It doesn't mean they are dumb just that you are close minded. sunny, just give it up that everyone can do things the way you would. What you say is good in theory but for many it's just not reality. .
They're dumb...plain and simple. Buying a car is not that difficult. If they can't understand what's involved...they're idiots. No and, if, or but's about it. Stop apologizing for mediocrity and start demanding people become more self sufficient.
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  #102  
Old 09-20-2012, 10:22 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Yes, we do. We get that you're happy to live in a world where people cannot do a basic such basic things as buying a car.



There has been no demonstration the dealer took advantage of any one. That's your speculation based on a world of mediocrity where people are unable to do some of the most basics of life's tasks.



They're dumb...plain and simple. Buying a car is not that difficult. If they can't understand what's involved...they're idiots. No and, if, or but's about it. Stop apologizing for mediocrity and start demanding people become more self sufficient.
I don't see why you feel the need to criticize others when they don't live up to your standards. Calling people idiots is really classless. Get out of your little box once in a while.
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  #103  
Old 09-21-2012, 05:58 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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I don't see why you feel the need to criticize others when they don't live up to your standards. Calling people idiots is really classless. Get out of your little box once in a while.
I criticize them because the standard I'm using is fairly low. People don't understand their mortgage contracts. People don't understand their vehicle contracts. People don't understand their cell phone contracts. People don't understand how to balance their checkbook. You don't see a problem with this?

Maybe we should just take all their money and have a trustee dole it out for them. Somehow I don't think they would agree to such a drastic measure despite the fact they've demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do it themselves. I'd bet we'd hear arguments to the effect they're adults and no one should tell them how to live their lives. Oh, the irony.

Last edited by sunny5280; 09-21-2012 at 06:50 AM.
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  #104  
Old 09-21-2012, 06:51 AM
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Maybe we should just take all their money and have a trustee dole it out for them.
Yes ..... I believe the Federal Government aspires to this role .....
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  #105  
Old 09-21-2012, 06:51 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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I criticize them because the standard I'm using is fairly low. People don't understand their mortgage contracts. People don't understand their vehicle contracts. People don't understand their cell phone contracts. People don't understand how to balance their checkbook. You don't see a problem with this?

Maybe we should just take all their money and have a trustee dole it out for them. Somehow I don't think they would agree to such a drastic measure despite the fact they've demonstrated they're incapable a complete lack of ability to do it themselves. I'd bet we'd hear arguments to the effect they're adults and no one should tell them how to live their lives. Oh, the irony.
I didn't say it's not problem but absolving the mortgage, car and cell phone companies of blame is not fair. If you don't think they do this on purpose you are being naive. I'm a bright guy who has been in sales for over 30 years, has a business degree and manages others yet I really have to sit down and study my cell phone bill to understand what I'm paying for. I'm quite capable of reading and understanding the lease I signed for my car and I turned down all the optional coverages but still felt the excitement and adrenaline on that day. What you get right is that if someone falls for a scheme like buying these additional coverages and later has regrets that they should take responsibility for their actions. I also think the dealer should give them a time limit to change their mind regarding these coverages.
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  #106  
Old 09-21-2012, 07:10 AM
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There's nothing elite about expecting someone to take responsibility for their actions. You may be OK with a world of mediocrity but I'm not.



I'm willing to bet it's more likely the dealer was on the up and up and there was no deception.
I guess not everybody can be perfect like you. In your own little world, you cant do no wrong and you expect every one to live up to your standards.

If you think chances are that the dealer is on the up and up and the customer is at fault, then you know a lot less about dealer's selling tactics than you think you do.
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  #107  
Old 09-21-2012, 07:55 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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I guess not everybody can be perfect like you. In your own little world, you cant do no wrong and you expect every one to live up to your standards.
I am by no means perfect. I make my fair share of mistakes. However I recognize they are my mistakes and I do not try to blame others for them. I take responsibility and accept the consequences.

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If you think chances are that the dealer is on the up and up and the customer is at fault, then you know a lot less about dealer's selling tactics than you think you do.
So far no underhanded, sneaky, or dishonest tactics by the dealer have been demonstrated. Automatically adding maintenance / wheel insurance is not underhanded, sneaky, or dishonest if it's fully disclosed in the paperwork.
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  #108  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:02 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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I didn't say it's not problem but absolving the mortgage, car and cell phone companies of blame is not fair. If you don't think they do this on purpose you are being naive. I'm a bright guy who has been in sales for over 30 years, has a business degree and manages others yet I really have to sit down and study my cell phone bill to understand what I'm paying for. I'm quite capable of reading and understanding the lease I signed for my car and I turned down all the optional coverages but still felt the excitement and adrenaline on that day. What you get right is that if someone falls for a scheme like buying these additional coverages and later has regrets that they should take responsibility for their actions. I also think the dealer should give them a time limit to change their mind regarding these coverages.
What I know is people bring problems on themselves and then expect others to be responsible for them:
  • People take out interest only, adjustable rate mortgages and then cry they were decevied when they can't pay the adjusted amount
  • People sign purchase contracts on a vehicle and blame the dealer for making it too difficult
  • People sign two year contracts to obtain a phone at a discount and then whine when they have to pay an ETF
  • People overdraw their bank accounts and whine the banks are being unfair by charging them for doing so and that the amount is too high

These are just a few examples we've seen recently. Sorry but everyone of these examples is the result of the consumer not reading / understanding what they are getting in to. Yes, there are genuine instances of fraud...always has been, always will be. If such is the case one can take legal action against the offending party. And I would encourage people to do so. I also don't want to hear "It's too complicated". If it's too complicated bring someone along who understands. Or don't enter into a contract if you don't understand it. What you don't do is sign a contract and then whine about it when you discover there might be something in it that you disagree with.

Last edited by sunny5280; 09-21-2012 at 08:04 AM.
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  #109  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:05 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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What I know is people bring problems on themselves and then expect others to be responsible for them:
  • People take out interest only, adjustable rate mortgages and then cry they were decevied when they can't pay the adjusted amount
  • People sign purchase contracts on a vehicle and blame the dealer for making it too difficult
  • People sign two year contracts to obtain a phone at a discount and then whine when they have to pay an ETF
  • People overdraw their bank accounts and whine the banks are being unfair by charging them for doing so and that the amount is too high

These are just a few examples we've seen recently. Sorry but almost everyone of these is the result of the consumer not reading / understanding what they are getting in to. I also don't want to hear "It's too complicated". If it's too complicated bring someone along who understands. Or don't enter in to the contract if you don't understand it. What you don't do is sign a contract and then whine about it when you discover there might be something in it that you disagree with.
So you didn't pay any attention to my post. I'm done here.
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  #110  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:10 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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I am by no means perfect. I make my fair share of mistakes. However I recognize they are my mistakes and I do not try to blame others for them. I take responsibility and accept the consequences.



So far no underhanded, sneaky, or dishonest tactics by the dealer have been demonstrated. Automatically adding maintenance / wheel insurance is not underhanded, sneaky, or dishonest if it's fully disclosed in the paperwork.

So everytime you get scam, its your fault?


In my book, any dealer who automatically adding maintenance / wheel insurance is trying to pull a fast one.
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  #111  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:12 AM
ERdiesel ERdiesel is offline
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If you think chances are that the dealer is on the up and up and the customer is at fault, then you know a lot less about dealer's selling tactics than you think you do.

Unless the dealer liquored up or drugged the buyer to the point of diminished mental capacity, or held a gun to his/her head or waved a magic wand that changed the $20,000 figure in the contract to a $24,000 figure after the SIL signed the paperwork, then YES chances are the dealer didn't do anything shady based on the information that was originally provided. Otherwise, I would think this would be a law enforcement matter, which apparently it is not.

How you automatically assume the dealer is at fault, really is beyond my comprehension so I would really like to hear you try to explain under what plausible scenario or what specific selling tactic could absolve the buyer of responsibility if she explicitly signed a contract for $24,000?

By the way, have you seen one of the BMW contracts recently? Looking at my lease agreement for example, the Total price is EXPLICITLY listed, the due at signing price is EXPLICITLY listed, and the monthly payment and number of months is EXPLICITLY listed..........nothing at all is hidden. And then the signature lines aren't that far from the $$$ lines listing the above. Additionally, if my memory serves me, when they offered me the optional tire/wheel insurance, that was a separate form to sign to explicitly acknowledge that you were agreeing to it (I assume this would be the case for an extra maintenance program). So please explain to this 2 year old, how someone can be deceived given the above??? And if the buyer did not bother to look at the 2 pages or so of clearly, EXPLICITLY stated key numbers, how exactly is that the dealer's fault?
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  #112  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:17 AM
ERdiesel ERdiesel is offline
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So everytime you get scam, its your fault?


In my book, any dealer who automatically adding maintenance / wheel insurance is trying to pull a fast one.

There is NO WAY the wheel/tire insurance can be automatically added and then hidden if it requires a separately signed agreement, which I know it did when it was offered to me.

So to get it:

1) Buyer signs wheel/tire insurance agreement
2) Dealer updates the financing/payment terms in his computer to account for the above, dealer prints out the final Contract that reflects what was agreed on above, and the buyer signs the final contract agreeing to the deal and payment terms.

So given the above, there is not "sneaking" in the tire/wheel insurance. It requires explicit approval and acknowledgement from the buyer.

Last edited by ERdiesel; 09-21-2012 at 09:35 AM.
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  #113  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:21 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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So everytime you get scam, its your fault?
Not every time. However I have seen no evidence of a scam in this instance. Just:

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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
In my book, any dealer who automatically adding maintenance / wheel insurance is trying to pull a fast one.
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  #114  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:40 AM
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I'm ignoring your other points because people aren't taught medicine in school. Reading and basic math are taught in school. The level necessary is taught early on in grade school.
Since when is contract law, and car buying techniques taught in school?


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I think you're confusing two different trains of thought. My thinking is the buyer needs to be responsible for their actions (or inaction as seems to be the case here). The fact I have experience in buying cars is irrelevant.
You are, again, setting expectations on other people. The fact you have experience buying cars is very relevant. It changes your point of view.


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Yep. And in the vast majority of cases it was just as bogus for that situation as it likely is here.
You have evidence that the vast majority of cases was bogus? Also, define bogus.
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Hahahaha, I like you furb, you like to live dangerously.
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  #115  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:41 AM
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FYI.........I went to college in Philly myself (Upenn) so know the area very well. Philadelphia has really cleaned up well since my undergrad years there.
I live on South Street...If you went to Penn anywhere prior to 2000 yea Philly has cleaned up a TON since then
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I agree with furby
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Hahahaha, I like you furb, you like to live dangerously.
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I started to google to find a picture to match furby's suggestion to Gia, but it quickly became clear it was an inappropriate search to conduct at work.
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  #116  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:47 AM
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So far no underhanded, sneaky, or dishonest tactics by the dealer have been demonstrated. Automatically adding maintenance / wheel insurance is not underhanded, sneaky, or dishonest if it's fully disclosed in the paperwork.
What leads you to think that no underhanded, sneaky or dishonest tactics were demonstrated by the dealership? You certainly were not there and cannot make a claim.

It can very easily be sneaky/underhanded/dishonest if the finance guy buried it in the slew of paperwork and hoped the customer didn't notice until later. I wasn't there so I can't say either.

Our only reference is the OP message where his sister is surprised to have seen this. Assuming her brother isn't lying, and she isn't lying then she had no idea she bought those two items until after the fact. That implies the finance guy didn't call it out. If the car was 20,000 and those services are 4,000 (an extra 20% increase) then why didn't the finance guy specifically call it out. That's not a small difference and he should have vocalized it.
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I agree with furby
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Hahahaha, I like you furb, you like to live dangerously.
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I started to google to find a picture to match furby's suggestion to Gia, but it quickly became clear it was an inappropriate search to conduct at work.
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  #117  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:52 AM
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There is NO WAY the wheel/tire insurance can be automatically added and then hidden if it requires a separately signed agreement, which I know it did when it was offered to me.
Considering every state has different disclosure laws, each dealership has different practices and doc prep (they are independently owned) your specific experience is not necessarily everyone elses experience.
What we know is the sister called her brother because she saw something she was not aware of after she got home.

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Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post
Unless the dealer liquored up or drugged the buyer to the point of diminished mental capacity, or held a gun to his/her head or waved a magic wand that changed the $20,000 figure in the contract to a $24,000 figure after the SIL signed the paperwork, then YES chances are the dealer didn't do anything shady based on the information that was originally provided. Otherwise, I would think this would be a law enforcement matter, which apparently it is not.
YOu don't need to go to that extreme. The finance guy could have buried it in upfront fees, taxes, payments, extending the terms of the contract, etc. If the customer is only looking at monthly payment- which happens so often we constantly see threads where we are telling people to NOT discuss payments - then yea she can be duped. BTW, sales people offering Payments instead of total cost is very common. I just g ot a call from BMW yesterday because they want to buy my car and put it into a car with a similar payment. I hung up.


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Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post
How you automatically assume the dealer is at fault, really is beyond my comprehension so I would really like to hear you try to explain under what plausible scenario or what specific selling tactic could absolve the buyer of responsibility if she explicitly signed a contract for $24,000?
Assumption is based on this information: The OP said his sister got home and was surprised to see an extra 4,000 in items she didn't know of before.


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Originally Posted by ERdiesel View Post
By the way, have you seen one of the BMW contracts recently? Looking at my lease agreement for example, the Total price is EXPLICITLY listed, the due at signing price is EXPLICITLY listed, and the monthly payment and number of months is EXPLICITLY listed..........nothing at all is hidden. And then the signature lines aren't that far from the $$$ lines listing the above. Additionally, if my memory serves me, when they offered me the optional tire/wheel insurance, that was a separate form to sign to explicitly acknowledge that you were agreeing to it (I assume this would be the case for an extra maintenance program). So please explain to this 2 year old, how someone can be deceived given the above??? And if the buyer did not bother to look at the 2 pages or so of clearly, EXPLICITLY stated key numbers, how exactly is that the dealer's fault?
OPs sister looked at the contract in more d etail at home also. Difference between at home then at the dealership...especially if she spent 3-4 hours there and was tired (not uncommon)
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I agree with furby
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Hahahaha, I like you furb, you like to live dangerously.
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I started to google to find a picture to match furby's suggestion to Gia, but it quickly became clear it was an inappropriate search to conduct at work.
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  #118  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:53 AM
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dealers always push the wheel/tire coverage, i get the feeling they get a nice payback from that. i almost had to raise my voice last time when the guy tried to push it on me. i literally had to say no thanks like 5 times. but to add it without asking is exceptionally sketchy.
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  #119  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:56 AM
ERdiesel ERdiesel is offline
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I live on South Street...If you went to Penn anywhere prior to 2000 yea Philly has cleaned up a TON since then

Yeah, I think regardless of one's political leanings, Philadelphia can thank former Governor Randall (who used to be mayor of Philadelphia from 1992-2000) for that. He really did turn the city around.
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  #120  
Old 09-21-2012, 09:59 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Not every time. However I have seen no evidence of a scam in this instance. Just:
You are admitting that you are no better than the OP's SIL, so why the superior complex?
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  #121  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:05 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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dealers always push the wheel/tire coverage, i get the feeling they get a nice payback from that. i almost had to raise my voice last time when the guy tried to push it on me. i literally had to say no thanks like 5 times. but to add it without asking is exceptionally sketchy.
You can bet on that, whatever the dealer finanace guy push the hardest has the largest profit margin. There is all kind of tricks to hide and bury cost inside a contract, our government is a master at that.
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  #122  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:45 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by furby076 View Post
Since when is contract law, and car buying techniques taught in school?
It's called reading and basic math.


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You are, again, setting expectations on other people. The fact you have experience buying cars is very relevant. It changes your point of view.
I've only purchased one house. I had no problems doing so. I managed to obtain a 30 year fixed rate loan at a good interest rate (at the time) with a payment I could afford. According to you I couldn't have done so given I didn't have any previous experience. See how foolish that argument is?

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You have evidence that the vast majority of cases was bogus? Also, define bogus.
I don't have any evidence...just observations.
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  #123  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:46 AM
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You are admitting that you are no better than the OP's SIL, so why the superior complex?
I am? How?
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  #124  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:47 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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You can bet on that, whatever the dealer finanace guy push the hardest has the largest profit margin. There is all kind of tricks to hide and bury cost inside a contract, our government is a master at that.
You have demonstrated no such tricks were used. Your whole scam premise is built on the fact they may have automatically included these two things instead of asking the customer if they wanted them. That's not a scam nor is it sleazy. When the bottom line price of the car goes from $20K to $24K I think that would be a sign something was not right.

Last edited by sunny5280; 09-21-2012 at 10:52 AM.
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  #125  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:50 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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OPs sister looked at the contract in more d etail at home also. Difference between at home then at the dealership...especially if she spent 3-4 hours there and was tired (not uncommon)
And who's fault is that? The time to look a contract over in detail is before you sign it, not afterwards.

Last edited by sunny5280; 09-21-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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