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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #101  
Old 09-24-2012, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by astirling View Post
Having just purchased an E92, I was looking at a variety of diesel models. The recent 320d with manual transmission has auto start stop. The automatic does not. I could only find 325Ds and 330Ds in automatic versions and none of them had auto start stop.
It actually disables itself quite a lot in my car. For example, it doesn't start working until the engine has warmed up. It also disables itself if the temperature is 3 degrees C or less. Finally, if you're stuck in queues of traffic for long periods of time, it disables itself to prevent draining the battery.
Obviously a quick press of the button under the radio also switches it off if it annoys you to the point where you can't live with it.
The new start/stop can only be disabled temporary before you start your engine for the first time.

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  #102  
Old 09-24-2012, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I can't open that site for some reason.
Here you go...

This is the kind of document that really meant "we reserve the right of changing what it is printed here".
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File Type: pdf 2011_5 September Changes.pdf (469.2 KB, 70 views)
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  #103  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:58 AM
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The new start/stop can only be disabled temporary before you start your engine for the first time.

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Way to go, five pages in you respond to the first post with incorrect information.
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  #104  
Old 09-24-2012, 09:39 AM
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Way to go, five pages in you respond to the first post with incorrect information.
I think his point was that, without the dealer fix, you have to turn it off manually each time you start the car.

I wonder what that stop/start feature is going to do to engine durability, btw. I can't imagine all those starts and stops is going to be good for the moving parts.
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  #105  
Old 09-24-2012, 09:46 AM
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yeah i was thinking the same thing, theres a reason why lightbulbs only die when you turn them on. its because of thermal stress. i know hard drives last a lot longer if you leave them constantly running instead of turning them on/off all the time. although im sure the BMW engineers have taken this into account. kind of seems like a huge gimmick to me, i cant imagine that you are saving that much energy or gas just by having the engine turned off for a few seconds when you stop.
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  #106  
Old 09-24-2012, 10:29 AM
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One assumes the engineers at BMW did their homework on all the drive components which would be affected by stop/start. Things like starter solenoid drives, brushes, and the starter drive gear and bearings, and the ring gear on the flex plate are going to see a major increase in wear. Maybe they had some extra engineers sitting around with nothing to do. The guys who worked on the original 335i HPFP design were probably available.
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  #107  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by chris328 View Post
yeah i was thinking the same thing, theres a reason why lightbulbs only die when you turn them on. its because of thermal stress. i know hard drives last a lot longer if you leave them constantly running instead of turning them on/off all the time. although im sure the BMW engineers have taken this into account. kind of seems like a huge gimmick to me, i cant imagine that you are saving that much energy or gas just by having the engine turned off for a few seconds when you stop.
Only time will tell I guess regarding reliability. It's claimed that having the engine off for 4 seconds is enough for savings to be made.
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  #108  
Old 09-24-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
One assumes the engineers at BMW did their homework on all the drive components which would be affected by stop/start. Things like starter solenoid drives, brushes, and the starter drive gear and bearings, and the ring gear on the flex plate are going to see a major increase in wear. Maybe they had some extra engineers sitting around with nothing to do. The guys who worked on the original 335i HPFP design were probably available.
Does BMW's Start/Stop use the starter motor et al? I know there was at least one start/stop system out there that stopped the engine with one cylinder just past TDC with an appropriate fuel charge and did the restart by firing the spark plug instead of spinning the starter system.

I will confess to having paid absolutely no attention past that to the start/stop systems, and have been running along fat, drunk, and stupid assuming they all worked that way.
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  #109  
Old 09-24-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
Does BMW's Start/Stop use the starter motor et al? I know there was at least one start/stop system out there that stopped the engine with one cylinder just past TDC with an appropriate fuel charge and did the restart by firing the spark plug instead of spinning the starter system.

I will confess to having paid absolutely no attention past that to the start/stop systems, and have been running along fat, drunk, and stupid assuming they all worked that way.
Hi Zooks. My response is "sorta". At shut off the computer makes sure the pistons are optimally aligned in their rotation so that one is ready to fire off almost instantly.
When the starter is engaged it does not take even a single full revolution of the crank to start the engine. A lot less energy is needed to start a fully warmed up engine than it takes for the first cold start of the day. There is some fraction of reduction in wear as a result.
Your idea about starting takes into account two of the three things you need for 'bang'. One is spark, check. The second is fuel, check. The last is compression, long gone due to leak down.
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  #110  
Old 09-24-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I think his point was that, without the dealer fix, you have to turn it off manually each time you start the car.

I wonder what that stop/start feature is going to do to engine durability, btw. I can't imagine all those starts and stops is going to be good for the moving parts.


That is correct, KT.

I only had to deal with the awful thing for a week as my 2013 arrived just as the news of the BMW service bulletin hit the boards. The issue is (was) that the button didn't remember the last setting on the ASS Off button, so every time you restarted the engine it defaulted back to 'on'.

I couldn't let my wife drive the car with ASS enabled as its just not safe. Now that its gone, life is good. It's an idiotic feature for tree huggers and federal standards but its going to get someone killed.

BJ
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  #111  
Old 09-24-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
Does BMW's Start/Stop use the starter motor et al? I know there was at least one start/stop system out there that stopped the engine with one cylinder just past TDC with an appropriate fuel charge and did the restart by firing the spark plug instead of spinning the starter system.

.
I've read about such system, but there is something I don't understand: If you "charge" a cylinder with a portion of air/ fuel mix and leave it like that, I don't think they will stay mixed. A new portion of fuel from the DI system would be needed. Am I wrong?
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  #112  
Old 09-24-2012, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Here you go...

This is the kind of document that really meant "we reserve the right of changing what it is printed here".
Thanks for sending me the bulletin. Our 2011.5 M3 sedan with MT that was delivered to us in April of 2011 did not include the auto stop/start feature (we ordered it in Jan/Feb. 2011). Everything else mentioned in the bulleting we have. I called my son just to ask him to make sure that I was correct, and he said it does not have this feature. Don't know why, as according to the bulletin we should, but I'm real glad that we don't have it.

I guess the old saying of "don't believe everything you read" is sometimes correct.

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  #113  
Old 09-24-2012, 02:44 PM
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WTF?

Headliners? Start/stop buttons? Buttresses, asses and droopy interiors? What about the drive? BMW know their customers alright..."The Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a tagline for flacid commercials and country club bars now!

I test drove the 335i and found it a good, solid and completely sterile experience. The suspension is better than the E9X, but the handling gives you the feeling you get after chatting with DSX for 20 minutes - distant and slightly numb. I got pissed off looking for the best gear out of the eight ("Eight gears, you say, wow! Jolly good, old chap!, When do we tee orrff?") available to get the engine to pull, and the vibrating wheel for a warning drove me crazy - I thought I had broken the brakes/breaks! I like the way the M brakes are the standard brakes, just painted blue. I have a bad habit of studying brakes these days and wondering how quickly one can change the pads!

It is a good solid sedan, with enough of a nod towards "sport" to make Auntie Mildred spill her coffee on the way to her bridge match while you explain how well work is going these days, but not much more. The 3 series isn't dead yet, but the grave digger has certainly gone to the shed to get his shovel...

I hope the new M-cars are much, much tighter...
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  #114  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
WTF?

Headliners? Start/stop buttons? Buttresses, asses and droopy interiors? What about the drive? BMW know their customers alright..."The Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a tagline for flacid commercials and country club bars now!

I test drove the 335i and found it a good, solid and completely sterile experience. The suspension is better than the E9X, but the handling gives you the feeling you get after chatting with DSX for 20 minutes - distant and slightly numb. I got pissed off looking for the best gear out of the eight ("Eight gears, you say, wow! Jolly good, old chap!, When do we tee orrff?") available to get the engine to pull, and the vibrating wheel for a warning drove me crazy - I thought I had broken the brakes/breaks! I like the way the M brakes are the standard brakes, just painted blue. I have a bad habit of studying brakes these days and wondering how quickly one can change the pads!

It is a good solid sedan, with enough of a nod towards "sport" to make Auntie Mildred spill her coffee on the way to her bridge match while you explain how well work is going these days, but not much more. The 3 series isn't dead yet, but the grave digger has certainly gone to the shed to get his shovel...


The F30 is what you call "refined", especially the model badged as the "Luxury" line. You wouldn't understand.

The new M3 is rumored to only be made available with an automatic transmission. BMW has finally figured out who their customers are. It's about time.

BJ
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  #115  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:34 PM
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The F30 is what you call "refined", especially the model badged as the "Luxury" line. You wouldn't understand.

The new M3 is rumored to only be made available with an automatic transmission. BMW has finally figured out who their customers are. It's about time.

BJ
If true, that is a total shame on BMW.
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  #116  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:46 PM
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If true, that is a total shame on BMW.
The F80 WILL come with a MT. It's the next gen that won't get it.
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  #117  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
WTF?

Headliners? Start/stop buttons? Buttresses, asses and droopy interiors? What about the drive? BMW know their customers alright..."The Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a tagline for flacid commercials and country club bars now!

I test drove the 335i and found it a good, solid and completely sterile experience. The suspension is better than the E9X, but the handling gives you the feeling you get after chatting with DSX for 20 minutes - distant and slightly numb. I got pissed off looking for the best gear out of the eight ("Eight gears, you say, wow! Jolly good, old chap!, When do we tee orrff?") available to get the engine to pull, and the vibrating wheel for a warning drove me crazy - I thought I had broken the brakes/breaks! I like the way the M brakes are the standard brakes, just painted blue. I have a bad habit of studying brakes these days and wondering how quickly one can change the pads!

It is a good solid sedan, with enough of a nod towards "sport" to make Auntie Mildred spill her coffee on the way to her bridge match while you explain how well work is going these days, but not much more. The 3 series isn't dead yet, but the grave digger has certainly gone to the shed to get his shovel...

I hope the new M-cars are much, much tighter...
The F80 M3 will have electric steering, I don't think 'tight' will be incorporated in any way.
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  #118  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:03 PM
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The F80 M3 will have electric steering, I don't think 'tight' will be incorporated in any way.
I hope it plays engine noise through the stereo too!
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  #119  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post


The F30 is what you call "refined", especially the model badged as the "Luxury" line. You wouldn't understand.

The new M3 is rumored to only be made available with an automatic transmission. BMW has finally figured out who their customers are. It's about time.

BJ
In terms of suspension, I think the F30 is more of a the "classic" BMW than the E90. The models prior to the E90 were notable for representing an ideal ride/handling tradeoff. In the E90 though, its all about handling and there is relatively little attention to ride quality. The F30 moves back in that direction.

The only real issue with the F30 is the steering, which saps the fun.
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  #120  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ///M-ratedE90 View Post
WTF?

Headliners? Start/stop buttons? Buttresses, asses and droopy interiors? What about the drive? BMW know their customers alright..."The Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a tagline for flacid commercials and country club bars now!

I test drove the 335i and found it a good, solid and completely sterile experience. The suspension is better than the E9X, but the handling gives you the feeling you get after chatting with DSX for 20 minutes - distant and slightly numb. I got pissed off looking for the best gear out of the eight ("Eight gears, you say, wow! Jolly good, old chap!, When do we tee orrff?") available to get the engine to pull, and the vibrating wheel for a warning drove me crazy - I thought I had broken the brakes/breaks! I like the way the M brakes are the standard brakes, just painted blue. I have a bad habit of studying brakes these days and wondering how quickly one can change the pads!

It is a good solid sedan, with enough of a nod towards "sport" to make Auntie Mildred spill her coffee on the way to her bridge match while you explain how well work is going these days, but not much more. The 3 series isn't dead yet, but the grave digger has certainly gone to the shed to get his shovel...

I hope the new M-cars are much, much tighter...
You've mistaken the conversation for the drugs kicking in. I've missed you, too, ///M. Where've you been?

It was the 2002tii which established BMW's reputation (in the US) as a performance car maker. Since then they've done their best to spread some of that legend onto everything they make. ///M trucks? Obviously the marketing people are in charge now, not the engineers.

To repeat myself (cue distant and slightly numb feeling), BMW is in the business of making as large a profit as they can, all the while kicking back at Audi and Mercedes nipping at their heels. Making the best true performance cars may not even be on their list of top 20 goals over the next decade.
We are witness to the late great days of BMW as they attempt to sell every trick in the book to meet EPA mpg standards. Four cylinder, twin turbo'd, slush boxed, stop/starting, electric motor steered 3 series? Just 8 years ago we would have laughed ourselves silly even considering the possibility.

Edit: We wouldn't have considered the possibility 8 years ago, but since then BMW has grown to be the largest luxury car seller in the US. I sometimes forget that BMW does not consult the fanboy forums to get clues as to which direction they will be going.

Last edited by DSXMachina; 09-24-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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  #121  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:23 PM
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In terms of suspension, I think the F30 is more of a the "classic" BMW than the E90. The models prior to the E90 were notable for representing an ideal ride/handling tradeoff. In the E90 though, its all about handling and there is relatively little attention to ride quality. The F30 moves back in that direction.

The only real issue with the F30 is the steering, which saps the fun.
The F30 is a lot more comfortable to drove than that bedstick of an E90. My back still hurts from that M-Sport suspension.

As for the F30 steering, that's an overreaction. Hit "Sport" on the variable drive and it gets much tighter, spend $950 on the options list, makes it just like the E90 if you prefer.

The more you understand the more you'll see why you'll all be driving F30's very soon. It's the size of an E39 with the ride of the E46. I'm told that makes enthusiast types getting on in years quite happy.

BJ
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  #122  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The F30 is a lot more comfortable to drove than that bedstick of an E90. My back still hurts from that M-Sport suspension.

As for the F30 steering, that's an overreaction. Hit "Sport" on the variable drive and it gets much tighter, spend $950 on the options list, makes it just like the E90 if you prefer.

The more you understand the more you'll see why you'll all be driving F30's very soon. It's the size of an E39 with the ride of the E46. I'm told that makes enthusiast types getting on in years quite happy.

BJ
Hey bolt, it occurred to me that if the target market demographic for BMW were distilled down to one individual it would be...you!
Think about it. You can't disagree.
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  #123  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
.
We are witness to the late great days of BMW as they attempt to sell every trick in the book to meet EPA mpg standards. Four cylinder, twin turbo'd, slush boxed, stop/starting, electric motor steered 3 series? Just 8 years ago we would have laughed ourselves silly even considering the possibility.

Edit: We wouldn't have considered the possibility 8 years ago, but since then BMW has grown to be the largest luxury car seller in the US. I sometimes forget that BMW does not consult the fanboy forums to get clues as to which direction they will be going.
You forgot a few. Here, let me fill you in:

The 3 Series is bigger, longer, wider, and softer.

The 3 Series comes standard with a driving profile called "Comfort" mode.

The 3 Series most popular trim is called the "Luxury" line replete with badges attesting to it.

The 3 Series now comes standard with most of what was called the "Premium" package.

We all know how important the 3 Series is to BMW. Clearly, they didn't reposition the 3 in this manner on an emotional whim. Market research told them what to do. The "enthusiasts" were never real, just an imaginary persona of a 47 year old with a mild midlife crisis. The 3 is the living embodiment of what it's buyers wanted it to be. We have been heard.

BJ
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  #124  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:32 PM
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I drive F30's all day. The steering is horrible. It drives like a boat. Putting the car into sport just males the car feel kinda weird. Steering weight becomes heavy for no reason.The car will fit you perfectly of you are 80 years old And want to pretend you're 40.
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  #125  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:35 PM
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Hey bolt, it occurred to me that if the target market demographic for BMW were distilled down to one individual it would be...you!
Think about it. You can't disagree.
See above!

I was right about the 428i.

I was right about the M328i

I was right about the status symbol "Luxury" consumer target.

You should start to listen to me. Might learn something.

BJ
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