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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 09-23-2012, 04:50 PM
tcandmm tcandmm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
I keep coming back to the 5 as a replacement for my aging RL. Yet even a small smattering of options, puts a 535xi in the 65k to 70k plus range. That's the same as a new S6. While I have a new found respect for BMW, after attending their performance driving school, their option packages are excessive.
Unfortunately that's the reality but you'll have to negotiate (and play games with the sales staff). Having owned and leased 5 BMWs, each time I have to ensure I take advantage of all the incentives and know the timing for the best offer. You'll have to do some researches and shop around, one positive thing is that there are plenty of BMW dealers here in So Cal.

Good luck.
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  #27  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:35 PM
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Everybody thinks they should be paid a higher salary, yet the same people wine about what something costs.

I am surprised no one here is complaining about the cost of a Rolex, it is all about supply and demand.

The RL is cheap because no one, and I mean, no one wants one. One of the worst selling cars ever. Maybe its Acura's hideous front end that they stick on every model. I think Gillette might have designed it.
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  #28  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck92116 View Post
The RL is cheap because no one, and I mean, no one wants one. One of the worst selling cars ever. Maybe its Acura's hideous front end that they stick on every model. I think Gillette might have designed it.
Valid point. Only reason why Acura outsells Infiniti, Audi, etc is because they have Honda's reputation behind them and they sell cars for dirt cheap (example: compare RDX to Q5/X3/GLK)

The designer for the beak deserves to get shot and killed (IMO, of course )
  #29  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:15 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is online now
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Originally Posted by SuperTerp View Post
Mug here holding a mug of jack and diet lemonade snapple and tea
Sounds nice.

Now going way off topic: Being a Jack drinker, have you ever tried George Dickel? Years ago I lived near both of their distilleries and used to conduct blind taste tests between the two. The only people that ever picked Jack were people from Lynchburg.
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  #30  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:20 PM
kc1953 kc1953 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Let's be frank - the 5 series is a rip-off for what you get.

The only reason they get away with charging these ridiculous prices are:
- Many people will rather have a car with few options but a BMW badge rather than a loaded Audi or Lexus (snob buyers)
- Some people are so obsessed with BMWs historical reputation for handling that they won't even cross shop competition (drone buyers)
- Some people are completely uncompromising and buy what they consider the best at any price (Mugs)

I know these labels are condescending, but in the spirit of brutal honesty I would admit I fall into one of them.

A sensible person would buy an Audi A6 or a Lexus GS350 instead of a 535i. But we aren't making a sensible choice here. We are making an emotional one. Which is why I drive an M5.
I dunno Stealth. I could have had an Audi or a Lexus or a Mercedes, or anything else with a price up to 70k (a self imposed limit). But I chose the f10 535i because I preferred the way it drove, the interior quality and the looks. Was it an emotional purchase? Well, I felt happy after I bought it, and happiness is an emotion, so I guess so. Was it an uncompromising purchase? Hardly. Almost every decision in life involves some kind of compromise, including car purchases. A snob purchase. Well, maybe a little.

But I do agree with you Stealth. Those labels are condescending.
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  #31  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
I keep coming back to the 5 as a replacement for my aging RL. Yet even a small smattering of options, puts a 535xi in the 65k to 70k plus range. That's the same as a new S6. While I have a new found respect for BMW, after attending their performance driving school, their option packages are excessive.
I think the 5 is the greatest value around. I bought mine as a CPO in 2003 for about $27K. Came with lots of features I never expected. Still a fantastic vehicle at about 175K miles.
  #32  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:49 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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I think as others have said, their needs to be a clear distinction between luxury marques.

Tier 1) rolls, bentleys, maybachs etc

Tier 2) Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche

Tier 3) Acura and Infinti

This brand distinction isnt particularly clear since if you look it at, platform sharing between the luxury marques (ie VAG) and between marques and their parent group (ie Bmw and Rolls), but this is the best you can figure.

Now if you look at Tier 2 mfgs, like Audi, Lexus, and Porsche, your stuck at sticker, or maybe a 1% off sticker, they dont negotiate mostly, unless its model end or something like conquest cash comes about. Bmws and Mercedes the negotiating headroom is much better. Bmws and mercedes can be had for 500-1000 above invoice, which is about 6k off of sticker. These two dont get stuck at msrp, since they are two companies that dont offer economical alternatives. Example VAG: If you want a family SUV/SAV your choices are: Economical VW Tourag, Luxury: Audi Q7 Performance: Porsche Cayenne. Hence, why negotiate, they offer the same vehicle platform, in different flavors from different marques.

Now when it comes to BMW, they only offer one marque, and they can do the same, but with different option sets (Base 528i, 535i, 550i) hence you get your three choices, all from the same brand, and diff price points. So in my opinion, BMW 5s arent really priced high or expensive, they offer what they can in the Luxury domain, and that too at an affordable invoice price, which is far less than what the others can do.

Now if you compare different tiers, theirs going to be an obvious stick shock/outrage. My thing is yes, BMW do offer less, then say Acura and Infinti offer, but you have to see where each manufacturer is coming from. If you look at my sig it explains a bit, but if you look at Acura, their cost to build a RL is going to be far less than a 5, since they share basic architecture from the Honda vehicles they are based on.

Sorry for the long, convoluted read folks!
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  #33  
Old 09-24-2012, 07:20 AM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Sounds nice.

Now going way off topic: Being a Jack drinker, have you ever tried George Dickel? Years ago I lived near both of their distilleries and used to conduct blind taste tests between the two. The only people that ever picked Jack were people from Lynchburg.
No never! I've only ever had JD! I'm not too much of a liquor snob lol probably why I make 7&7s with crown royal lmao

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
I think as others have said, their needs to be a clear distinction between luxury marques.

Tier 1) rolls, bentleys, maybachs etc

Tier 2) Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche

Tier 3) Acura and Infinti
Having lived in a house where we had a turbo S and a 760 for a single driver (I wasn't allowed to drive often or only with supervision lmao) I'd say you have teir 1 people who don't want/ see a reason to have a teir 1 vehicle and you cant lump a boxster or x1 in with an m5 760 or 911.


Where I do my internship an Evp making about 2.4 a year (and that's what I know about) drives a 99 explorer, another vp making 872k drives a tsx... Heck even mitt Romney pulling down 13+ a year isn't rolling around in a Bugatti

I've found its usually the families who might fall into the 400-700 combined range who think they're the next bill gates... I had a buddy wed go to private school lax games with and his dad rolls up in a Bentley gt (my dad laughed and goes you know mr. X only makes about 250k +60k bonuses right )... And that Bentley was a BIG payment lease

Last edited by SuperTerp; 09-24-2012 at 07:37 AM.
  #34  
Old 09-24-2012, 08:18 AM
At Law At Law is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
I think as others have said, their needs to be a clear distinction between luxury marques.

Tier 1) rolls, bentleys, maybachs etc

Tier 2) Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche

Tier 3) Acura and Infinti
I think I would put Lexus in the Tier 3 as well.

Porsche has to be differentiated as well. There are Porsches (911 and Panamera) which enter the Tier 1 level, while the Cayenne's, Gayman's, and Boxter's tickle the Tier 2 level.
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  #35  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:00 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Originally Posted by At Law View Post
I think I would put Lexus in the Tier 3 as well.

Porsche has to be differentiated as well. There are Porsches (911 and Panamera) which enter the Tier 1 level, while the Cayenne's, Gayman's, and Boxter's tickle the Tier 2 level.
If Lexus is tier 3, then Acura is tier 4 and Porsche should be tier 1.5. Pretty soon, we will have 7 or 8 tier

Last edited by The X Men; 09-24-2012 at 11:01 AM.
  #36  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:03 AM
jygesq jygesq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kssod View Post
I keep coming back to the 5 as a replacement for my aging RL. Yet even a small smattering of options, puts a 535xi in the 65k to 70k plus range. That's the same as a new S6. While I have a new found respect for BMW, after attending their performance driving school, their option packages are excessive.
you can get blazing deals on BMW and MB, It was quoted $6k off an m3 with a list of $65 k

Last edited by jygesq; 09-24-2012 at 11:04 AM.
  #37  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:44 AM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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I think we can add the equus and genesis To tier 7&8. LOL. (love Hyundais refinement plans, but I think they need to establish which direction there going in, Hyundai = Lux Kia=economical ?....)

Again folks, very very loose tier distinctions, and the focus is on looking at the car manufacture as a complete working group. Yes every luxury car maker has their one off exotics (LFA, 918, carrera) and their performance brand (m, amg, rs, f) , but overall they still offer affordable, mass producible cars (x5, ml, q7, cayenne, rx). Hence Porsche in tier 2.

Lexus was a brand I had some apprehensions about, since while they're basic platform is from a Toyota, they have been continuously striving to match, or best the other brands in tier 2, with infotainment systems, and driving characteriscs. Plus their dealers are probably equivalent to Audi dealers, since they seem to never budge off Msrp unless something of the above mentions. I also saw their new ls, and that screen is the biggest in the business, even bigger than BMW (not saying thats a sole reason one should buy a Ls over the other offerings but that does show their new found drive, to get with the German industry). Unlike Acura and Infiniti, who pretty much use virtually everything they have from their parent company, Lexus is trying to differentiate, and to that I granted them tier 2 status
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  #38  
Old 09-24-2012, 12:28 PM
wildcardz wildcardz is offline
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"What you think I rap for? To push a f**kin' Rav 4?!" - Kanye West

Seriously though--I hate condescending old money types who tell others what they can or can't spend money on. There are flashes of the "what's your gross income" thread in here.
  #39  
Old 09-24-2012, 12:45 PM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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Originally Posted by wildcardz View Post
"What you think I rap for? To push a f**kin' Rav 4?!" - Kanye West

Seriously though--I hate condescending old money types who tell others what they can or can't spend money on. There are flashes of the "what's your gross income" thread in here.
More like Lil Zane in hardball "And I hope it ain't your Range Rover, that you spent your change over"
  #40  
Old 09-24-2012, 12:47 PM
At Law At Law is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
If Lexus is tier 3, then Acura is tier 4 and Porsche should be tier 1.5. Pretty soon, we will have 7 or 8 tier
I respectfully dissent. Porsche should be Tier 1.1197654
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  #41  
Old 09-24-2012, 01:27 PM
kssod kssod is offline
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As far as a nice bourbon, try Blantons. single barrel, small batch with nice vanilla undertones.
Also like Basil Hayden
  #42  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:20 PM
HDEddie1 HDEddie1 is online now
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If you're looking at the Audi S6, consider the 550ix (with M sport and Dynamic Handling Package). That would be more price and performance competitive with the $70+ Audi S6. If you can find a new left over 2012 550ix, it would even be more competitive price wise.
  #43  
Old 09-24-2012, 04:44 PM
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Lexus LS - that car alone is sufficient to take Lexus to Tier 2.

I dont think Acura can ever make such a car. Infinity ofcourse is not even in this frame.. coz they are busy chasing their passion to create the ugliest cars on the planet.

I think Lexus is Tier 2 marque. they have the intent and dedication to be that. and results are showing.

Also, i think Porsche deserves a 1.5 Tier.. where it is a "practical" alternative to ferraris.
  #44  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:24 PM
HDEddie1 HDEddie1 is online now
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Actually, I do know an Acura R&D employee who was part of the team that took a stock BMW M5 (e60) a few years ago to thoroughly drive and benchmark it, and took it apart to see what made it work...maybe even use some of BMW engineering wizardry. While that didn't surprise me, what did was their conclusion. While they admired what the BMW M5 was, they concluded that it was too much a "hot rod" and not what the target market for the Acura RL is and remains to be.
That Acura could build a "hot rod" is not the question as they demonstrated with the NSX, but again, it is the target market. Can you imagine the NSX engineering applied to a Honda or Acura TL? M3 and AMG C63 domain?
In the same conversation, their finance guy commented its all about the numbers....they'd rather sell 100s of plain Acuras (and Hondas) rather than one hot rod at a loss, as they did with each NSX they sold.

So, I don't think the Acura pretends or purports to be a tier 2 automobile, they're after that soft spot of the buying public that wants reliability (OK, so its a Honda or Toyota platform) with just a hint of sportiness, technical prowess, even pedigree. Gee...I wonder if the tier 2 manufacturers will ever head that way? Nah...they've got enthusiast, right or wrong, like us on this and other forums. And, I'm OK with that just the same.
  #45  
Old 09-24-2012, 05:29 PM
SuperTerp SuperTerp is offline
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I agree with Eddie somewhat, I honestly think the SH-AWD is better than xdrive... Its just ashame every car they put out can't hack it in any kind of performance category.
  #46  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:17 PM
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Big part of why BMWs are more expensive is that they are an independently-owned and operated company. They have full control of their R&D and some of that money they charge is reflective of that. I have to say BMW has one of the better customer service. With a couple of issues, my 2008 E60 was bought back without any haggle.
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Last edited by Decboy; 09-24-2012 at 06:19 PM.
  #47  
Old 09-24-2012, 06:51 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph1201 View Post
Lexus LS - that car alone is sufficient to take Lexus to Tier 2.

I dont think Acura can ever make such a car. Infinity ofcourse is not even in this frame.. coz they are busy chasing their passion to create the ugliest cars on the planet.

I think Lexus is Tier 2 marque. they have the intent and dedication to be that. and results are showing.

Also, i think Porsche deserves a 1.5 Tier.. where it is a "practical" alternative to ferraris.
on the passion to create the ugliest car.
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Why does this matter?
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  #48  
Old 09-24-2012, 07:05 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDEddie1 View Post
Actually, I do know an Acura R&D employee who was part of the team that took a stock BMW M5 (e60) a few years ago to thoroughly drive and benchmark it, and took it apart to see what made it work...maybe even use some of BMW engineering wizardry. While that didn't surprise me, what did was their conclusion. While they admired what the BMW M5 was, they concluded that it was too much a "hot rod" and not what the target market for the Acura RL is and remains to be.
That Acura could build a "hot rod" is not the question as they demonstrated with the NSX, but again, it is the target market. Can you imagine the NSX engineering applied to a Honda or Acura TL? M3 and AMG C63 domain?
In the same conversation, their finance guy commented its all about the numbers....they'd rather sell 100s of plain Acuras (and Hondas) rather than one hot rod at a loss, as they did with each NSX they sold.

So, I don't think the Acura pretends or purports to be a tier 2 automobile, they're after that soft spot of the buying public that wants reliability (OK, so its a Honda or Toyota platform) with just a hint of sportiness, technical prowess, even pedigree. Gee...I wonder if the tier 2 manufacturers will ever head that way? Nah...they've got enthusiast, right or wrong, like us on this and other forums. And, I'm OK with that just the same.

I think you summed it up great on Acura.

However I think the engineer doesn't need to reverse engineer the m5, I think reverse engineering a 528i or 535i is more in line with what would get Acura into tier 2. M5 equivalent isn't really needed in acuras portfolio. In addition, they actually are thinking of adding the hybrid powertrain concept from the nsx prototype into the next gen RL, so yes trickle down tech, a common mfg implementation, would be possibly going into the RL.

Again, the costs would increase, but at least they could distribute the costs across their Marques, unlike BMW and MB.

As a person who believes in the ideology, focus one thing, and do it well, and Acura and infiniti take luxury and make it affordable, and sell it in volume. They do it well. Honestly if they make the MDX well, I'm ready to buy!
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Why does this matter?
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  #49  
Old 09-24-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
A sensible person would buy an Audi A6 or a Lexus GS350 instead of a 535i. But we aren't making a sensible choice here. We are making an emotional one. Which is why I drive an M5.
For someone going for the best, should one buy the S6 instead of the 550i ... and maybe should wait for the RS6, in relation to the M5

Last edited by bm323; 09-24-2012 at 07:46 PM.
  #50  
Old 09-24-2012, 07:50 PM
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cordoor cordoor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I know these labels are condescending, but in the spirit of brutal honesty I would admit I fall into one of them.

A sensible person would buy an Audi A6 or a Lexus GS350 instead of a 535i.
I fall into one of those categories, too.

However, it is difficult for me to accept as necessarily "sensible" buying a GS350 over a 535i. I test drove the all-new GS350 and will say that I was not impressed. The difference in torque (GS350 has less) felt significant. And I really did not like the push button temperature controls. The knobs in the 535 are much easier to use. There were several other small usability quirks (e.g. to turn off the turn signal, you pushed the lever in the opposite direction). Additionally, I really *hated* (not a strong enough word for it) the mouse-like controller for the display. It took concentration to get the cursor to land on the option I wanted and you had to constantly watch the screen while you did it.

There were some things I liked about it, such as the analog clock. But really, I did not like the car.

What this says to me, anyway, is that you cannot necessarily say one car is a more sensible purchase than the other simply by a price/feature comparison. It is the implementation of those features that matters more to some buyers like me. This is also why I continue to use an iPhone instead of an Android device.

-Corey
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