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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 09-25-2012, 02:10 AM
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Your age can have something to do with it. At 64 I am a snob and a mug. My old 540 got the job done well for 15 years, next week the new ED 550i will take me to age 75. Neither car is loaded and I kinda like it that way, less to go wrong and the prices works, this is the snob in me. If this is a business decision buy a Honda Accord if not get the BMW and don't look back and enjoy the ride. My wife keeps asking me why I need 400 hp, this is where the mug comes in!! Not sure using the term "rip off" on Bimmerfest is proper for membership in good standing.
  #52  
Old 09-25-2012, 04:27 AM
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Can't beleive no one mentioned ED! If your worried about the money go for the two'fer... ED... new car and vacation one price.
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  #53  
Old 09-25-2012, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by reaper1 View Post
Can't beleive no one mentioned ED! If your worried about the money go for the two'fer... ED... new car and vacation one price.
Yes, the idea is a great party conversational piece, but the negative is you are paying for the non use of the car while it is in shipment.
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2012, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by HDEddie1 View Post
Actually, I do know an Acura R&D employee who was part of the team that took a stock BMW M5 (e60) a few years ago to thoroughly drive and benchmark it, and took it apart to see what made it work...maybe even use some of BMW engineering wizardry. While that didn't surprise me, what did was their conclusion. While they admired what the BMW M5 was, they concluded that it was too much a "hot rod" and not what the target market for the Acura RL is and remains to be.
That Acura could build a "hot rod" is not the question as they demonstrated with the NSX, but again, it is the target market. Can you imagine the NSX engineering applied to a Honda or Acura TL? M3 and AMG C63 domain?
In the same conversation, their finance guy commented its all about the numbers....they'd rather sell 100s of plain Acuras (and Hondas) rather than one hot rod at a loss, as they did with each NSX they sold.

So, I don't think the Acura pretends or purports to be a tier 2 automobile, they're after that soft spot of the buying public that wants reliability (OK, so its a Honda or Toyota platform) with just a hint of sportiness, technical prowess, even pedigree. Gee...I wonder if the tier 2 manufacturers will ever head that way? Nah...they've got enthusiast, right or wrong, like us on this and other forums. And, I'm OK with that just the same.
Forget the M5, if Acura can make a car as solid as the 535i, it will put them back on the map. Most of Acura I have been in are rattle traps, the sheet metal is so thin that you can make a dent in it by sneezing on it. Transmission technology and lighting technology are way behind industrial standards and still no V8. Let not forget the ugly power ranger grille that Acura refuse to get rid of, it all adds up to a car company that do not listen to their customers. Acura's dealer service is also not up to par and they do not offer loaner cars.
Its pretty obvious that Acura has no inspiration of being a tier two luxury car maker. In fact, the line is really blurred right now as far as the difference between a Honda and Acura. The Acura lineup is so water down that they can prbably get away with merging Acura back into Honda and sales would not suffer that much.
  #55  
Old 09-25-2012, 10:46 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is online now
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I am mugging it too!
And will not like to be found dead in such a cheapish four ringer or upscaled Toy, or super Honda....

Last edited by Sophisto; 09-25-2012 at 10:48 AM.
  #56  
Old 09-25-2012, 01:12 PM
HDEddie1 HDEddie1 is offline
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Agree with XMen. Acura has missed the boat. For its current target market, Owners who want a comfortable cocoon, they're essentially offering an upgraded Honda, with even less design appeal. The upcoming 2014 NSX is striking, in design and performance, but it will be doubtful if any of its performance or design will be shared with its normal cars.
BMW owners, on the other hand, can drive just about any model and know that their car's DNA is not too far (depending on model) from the driving standard, the M.
Same can be said with the current Lexus LFA....just a distant dream for most enthusiast. None of the LFA goodness is planned for the Lexus line up. Come to think about it, how easy would it have been for Lexus to offer the current IS F V8 engine in the new GS350?

I may not have ended up buying my 550i...hmmm.
  #57  
Old 09-25-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDEddie1 View Post
Agree with XMen. Acura has missed the boat. For its current target market, Owners who want a comfortable cocoon, they're essentially offering an upgraded Honda, with even less design appeal. The upcoming 2014 NSX is striking, in design and performance, but it will be doubtful if any of its performance or design will be shared with its normal cars.
BMW owners, on the other hand, can drive just about any model and know that their car's DNA is not too far (depending on model) from the driving standard, the M.
Same can be said with the current Lexus LFA....just a distant dream for most enthusiast. None of the LFA goodness is planned for the Lexus line up. Come to think about it, how easy would it have been for Lexus to offer the current IS F V8 engine in the new GS350?

I may not have ended up buying my 550i...hmmm.
I am still not sold on the upcoming NSX, a V6 hybrid halo car? Why not a good old V8 turbo or a V12? Honda have always match to the beat of its own drummer, sometimes the customer will match with them, sometimes not.
I agree about the Lexus GS, they should have put the IS F engine in the new GS F-sport.
  #58  
Old 09-25-2012, 04:17 PM
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Not too goo off in a tangent, but I think I'm pretty sure once the gs is settled into the product line, we can expect some more power from the GS. The problem Lexus has, is that

A) their vehicles sizes overlap. New ES (should be based on Avalon) and GS (rear wheel drive architecture that's similar to another Toyota sold outside of NA market). I cant Really get which vehicle is suppose to correspond with which competitor. The GS should equal the 5, but so can the ES. So besides pricing and rwd, what else is different? But honestly none of their buyers care, and they're moving em by the k.

B) engine tech. Toyota builds reliable engines, no doubt. However this reliability is as a result of using one engine design, and refining it and refining it over and over again, across several platforms, and decades. In the past this was great, since not much engine tech evolution was really necessary to build environmentally friendly vehicles. However with advent of forced induction, making every drop count, smaller displacement, Toyota has been treading these waters slowly, since their company motto has been in-line with the idea the environmentally friendly cars are hybrids. Economical cars are naturally aspirated. Thus slow adoption of new engines. However the market is shifting, wi ecoboost, skyactiv, people are responding well to economical cars with forced induction motors, since they inject some change into a relatively monotone market. No longer is the idea that to achieve 35+ mpg one must purchase a hybrid. Toyota has realized it, but im gonna give them half decade to bring up some competitive engine designs, and another half to bring them to Lexus.

I think the Acura NSX has a lot to live up to. However I never really thought of the original NSX has an amazing beast of machinery. It's more of a gtr type vehicle, great handling, sufficient power, but not a exotic supercar. I think that more supercars should adopt electric motors (918), since they seem to have such an unnatural nack for just punching you in the seat, when you floor it. The power is unimaginable. I don't mean that you should replace high revving motors v8+ for electrics, but it's a great complement. In addition I think the NSX seem poised to be a great track handler, like the gtr.
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Last edited by NoI4plz; 09-25-2012 at 04:23 PM.
  #59  
Old 09-25-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
Not too goo off in a tangent, but I think I'm pretty sure once the gs is settled into the product line, we can expect some more power from the GS. The problem Lexus has, is that

A) their vehicles sizes overlap. New ES (should be based on Avalon) and GS (rear wheel drive architecture that's similar to another Toyota sold outside of NA market). I cant Really get which vehicle is suppose to correspond with which competitor. The GS should equal the 5, but so can the ES. So besides pricing and rwd, what else is different? But honestly none of their buyers care, and they're moving em by the k.
New ES is based on Avalon. They are two cars aimed at different people. The ES is significantly cheaper and doesn't have the higher tech options, like the GS
Quote:

B) engine tech. Toyota builds reliable engines, no doubt. However this reliability is as a result of using one engine design, and refining it and refining it over and over again, across several platforms, and decades. In the past this was great, since not much engine tech evolution was really necessary to build environmentally friendly vehicles. However with advent of forced induction, making every drop count, smaller displacement, Toyota has been treading these waters slowly, since their company motto has been in-line with the idea the environmentally friendly cars are hybrids. Economical cars are naturally aspirated. Thus slow adoption of new engines. However the market is shifting, wi ecoboost, skyactiv, people are responding well to economical cars with forced induction motors, since they inject some change into a relatively monotone market. No longer is the idea that to achieve 35+ mpg one must purchase a hybrid. Toyota has realized it, but im gonna give them half decade to bring up some competitive engine designs, and another half to bring them to Lexus.
I sort of agree with you on this point, but the 3.5 V6 is a fantastic piece of engineering IMO. Toyota has fixed the DI carbon buildup problem with their D4-S twin injection system. They were the first to roll out 8 speed automatics. I wouldn't say Toyota is sitting around. They are def. working on a new V6 and V8. Honda, on the other hand, is a worthless company now.
  #60  
Old 09-25-2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NoI4plz View Post
I think as others have said, their needs to be a clear distinction between luxury marques.

Tier 1) rolls, bentleys, maybachs etc

Tier 2) Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche

Tier 3) Acura and Infinti
I agree with this for the most part, but this is the way I look at it

Elite: Rolls, Bentley, Maybach, porsche, etc
Tier 1: Audi, BMW, MB, Lexus
Tier 2: Cadillac, Jaguar
Tier 3: Acura, Infiniti

Porsche, Rolls, Bentley, etc are held to a higher standard and are in the "elite" class. The Porsche badge carries much more weight than a BMW/Audi/Lexus, etc. Porsche's average selling price is above MB/Lexus/Audi/BMW

Tier 1 requires the prestige, brand recognition, a full lineup (entry level to D class sedans), and a Halo car. BMW doesn't have a "halo," but they clearly have the prestige to stay up there. MB has had the SLR, SLS, etc. Audi has the R8. Lexus has the LFA.

Jag is not up there because they don't have a full lineup. Same with Cadillac. Cadillac will be back at Tier 1 in a couple years once GM revamps their whole lineup.

Acura and Infiniti are worthless and are nothing but Nissan + and Honda + models.
  #61  
Old 09-25-2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
I agree with this for the most part, but this is the way I look at it

Elite: Rolls, Bentley, Maybach, porsche, etc
Tier 1: Audi, BMW, MB, Lexus
Tier 2: Cadillac, Jaguar
Tier 3: Acura, Infiniti

Porsche, Rolls, Bentley, etc are held to a higher standard and are in the "elite" class. The Porsche badge carries much more weight than a BMW/Audi/Lexus, etc. Porsche's average selling price is above MB/Lexus/Audi/BMW

Tier 1 requires the prestige, brand recognition, a full lineup (entry level to D class sedans), and a Halo car. BMW doesn't have a "halo," but they clearly have the prestige to stay up there. MB has had the SLR, SLS, etc. Audi has the R8. Lexus has the LFA.

Jag is not up there because they don't have a full lineup. Same with Cadillac. Cadillac will be back at Tier 1 in a couple years once GM revamps their whole lineup.

Acura and Infiniti are worthless and are nothing but Nissan + and Honda + models.
Have to disagree with the Cadillac ranking : Evidence

3.6 litre motor used throughout the GM Lineup
Cadillac SRX- Rebadged Chevrolet Equinox, GMC Terrain
Cadillac XTS- Rebadged Buick Lacrosse
Cadillac Escalade- Rebadged Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Denali
So until Cadillac changes this they are just a Tier 3 IMO, In fact my wife's M37 is way above any current Cadillac.
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  #62  
Old 09-25-2012, 06:02 PM
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Have to disagree with the Cadillac ranking : Evidence

3.6 litre motor used throughout the GM Lineup
Cadillac SRX- Rebadged Chevrolet Equinox, GMC Terrain
Cadillac XTS- Rebadged Buick Lacrosse
Cadillac Escalade- Rebadged Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Denali
So until Cadillac changes this they are just a Tier 3 IMO, In fact my wife's M37 is way above any current Cadillac.
I wouldn't argue against your point about poor product. But the CTS (CTS-V) and new ATS are fantastic. Both better than anything Acura or Infiniti have ever put out for sale.

Even with their poor product, the SRX has outsold the Lexus RX on numerous occasions and the Escalade still sells very well. Cadillac's average transaction price puts them in Tier 2, trending upward. It will only increase once the ATS is released to the market and new flagship is out.

Cadillac been up pretty high in the luxury sales list for the last couple years now.
  #63  
Old 09-25-2012, 07:34 PM
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Since these tiers are only opinions at best, what each person perceives as the appropriate tier is what actually matters to that person only.

So to me, I see the follow following brands as follows:

Elite: Bugatti, Rolls, Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, Aston Martin
Tier 1: Maserati, Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi
Tier 2: Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac
Tier 3: Buick, Hyundai, Acura, ...

The order listed is my perception of how they rank within their tier.

These are my perceptions, so it's not necessary to tell me I'm wrong.


BTW, Maybach is no more. Hopefully, no who wanted one missed out on their final clearance sale - they were discounting them around $100k.
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  #64  
Old 09-25-2012, 08:18 PM
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^$100k!? Dealers must have been making a killing on them
  #65  
Old 09-25-2012, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post

Elite: Bugatti, Rolls, Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, Aston Martin
Tier 1: Maserati, Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi
Tier 2: Jaguar, Lexus, Cadillac
Tier 3: Acura, Infiniti, ...
Almost perfect list I fixed it though
  #66  
Old 09-25-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Elite: Bugatti, Rolls, Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, Aston Martin
Tier 1: Maserati, Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi
Tier 2: Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac
Tier 3: Buick, Hyundai, Acura, ...
I would pretty much agree although I still struggle with Cadillac. I know the CTS-V is a fun little car that competes with an M or an RS, but I just cringe at the thought of ever owning a Cadillac (I am 32, so I know that's a big factor).

Today an older guy (late 50s/early 60s) was trying to show off his CTS-V to me (on crowded city streets no less). Not only did I find his behavior comical, but I thought to myself, "go ahead and beat me to 60 mph, you're still in a Cadillac..."
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  #67  
Old 09-25-2012, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Since these tiers are only opinions at best, what each person perceives as the appropriate tier is what actually matters to that person only.

So to me, I see the follow following brands as follows:

Elite: Bugatti, Rolls, Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, Aston Martin
Tier 1: Maserati, Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi
Tier 2: Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac
Tier 3: Buick, Hyundai, Acura, ...
I like your list better than mine, but the only brand I have an issue with is Lexus. They are sort of in between 1 and 2, especially since they have the $375k LFA

A good requirement to be in the top tiers would be recognition throughout the world. Lexus and Cadillac aren't well known around the world. Only the US cares about Cadillac and outside of USA/Japan, Lexus isn't a big deal.

But ask anyone around the world about a Porsche/Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Aston/Lamborghini. They know the brand because these brands have spent decades building their credibility around the world. Something Lexus still needs to do.

I think its hilarious that Acura was the first japanese luxury brand, yet they are worst of the bunch now.
  #68  
Old 09-25-2012, 10:39 PM
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I am still not sold on the upcoming NSX, a V6 hybrid halo car? Why not a good old V8 turbo or a V12? Honda have always match to the beat of its own drummer, sometimes the customer will match with them, sometimes not.
I agree about the Lexus GS, they should have put the IS F engine in the new GS F-sport.
Well, the previous NSX was "underpowered" by even the standards of the time (although probably way underreported due to the gentlemens agreement at the time among Japanese car manufacturers). That car performed excellently, and are even still considered to be reliable to this day. Nissan has done fine with a 6 cylinder in their halo car, the GT-R. If they keep the weight low enough, the 6 will be more than powerful enough to run with the big boys. Honda has never been known for going with a higher cylinder count, but they have been known to push 4 cylinder engines to the limit.
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  #69  
Old 09-25-2012, 10:59 PM
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I keep coming back to the 5 as a replacement for my aging RL. Yet even a small smattering of options, puts a 535xi in the 65k to 70k plus range. That's the same as a new S6. While I have a new found respect for BMW, after attending their performance driving school, their option packages are excessive.
my 2 cents.. Because Audi is trying to become BMW. The only way to pull people away is to offer what seems like the exact same car for less money. Although when you get to a negotiation standpoint I find that the selling price on each of these cars come in line with each other since BMW sells well below MSRP.


For me, who leases rather than purchase, have found out Audi's to be very expensive mostly because the Audi Residuals are TERRIBLE!
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  #70  
Old 09-26-2012, 06:49 AM
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my 2 cents.. Because Audi is trying to become BMW.
I donít think Audi is trying to be BMW. Audi sells as much cars or more globally as BMW and MB.
  #71  
Old 09-26-2012, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Elite: Bugatti, Rolls, Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, Aston Martin
Tier 1: Maserati, Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi
Tier 2: Jaguar, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac
Tier 3: Buick, Hyundai, Acura, ...
The problem I have with Cadillac is their dealerships, its no better than the Tier 3 brands.
  #72  
Old 09-26-2012, 07:23 AM
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The problem I have with Cadillac is their dealerships, its no better than the Tier 3 brands.
Even worse. Why should a CTV-V driver have to wait in the service bay with a dude who owns a Chevy Sonic?
  #73  
Old 09-26-2012, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
my 2 cents.. Because Audi is trying to become BMW. The only way to pull people away is to offer what seems like the exact same car for less money. Although when you get to a negotiation standpoint I find that the selling price on each of these cars come in line with each other since BMW sells well below MSRP.


For me, who leases rather than purchase, have found out Audi's to be very expensive mostly because the Audi Residuals are TERRIBLE!
Audi already outsells MB worldwide and sells almost as much as BMW. They aren't trying to be anyone.

Audi residuals are "terrible" because they don't subsidize them like BMW. You can't get $10k+ off sticker at the dealer and cheap lease deals. This is how they keep their resale high. This is also why BMW resale is subpar recently.
  #74  
Old 09-26-2012, 08:23 AM
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I donít think Audi is trying to be BMW. Audi sells as much cars or more globally as BMW and MB.
Audi MotherShip sells more cars globally, beacuse they have a bunch of divisions Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, äkoda and of course Volkswagen.

As for US sales, since I do not think MackMan cares what the price is in China (correct me if i am wrong here) BMW and MB are WAY ahead of Audi in sales. Actually in the US they sell 2X the number of vehicles as Audi. In the US, they are trying to be like BMW and Mercedes.

Take a look - data via the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
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  #75  
Old 09-26-2012, 08:30 AM
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Audi already outsells MB worldwide and sells almost as much as BMW. They aren't trying to be anyone.

because they don't subsidize them like BMW
Not arguing that, but some of them are SO bad after 3 years. In the US markets both BMW and MB do some level of subsidizing and IMO Audi will have to come to the plate if they want to do the numbers of units MB and BMW move in the US.

Also, I wanted to get an S5 but the lease rates were so high for basically same MSRP.
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