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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #51  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:16 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I tested my 535 after Yogi posted his videos. It starts in first.
And??? What do you make of it and is your car starting off the line OK now?

I've just re-read the top of this thread and my 535 does nothing like what those 550 guys are describing. Really... nearly perfect take off with the exception of a tiny jerk which has nothing to do with 2nd >> 1st downshift issue (the jerk is before the car gets into motion and is minor, half of the ppl would never notice it).

I will repost the link to the vids in case the 550 owners need them: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=665409

Those with 550s starting off in the 1st should probably do their peers a favour and post similar stuff. "By comparison" is IMO the only way to get those cars fixed and running right!
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  #52  
Old 01-03-2013, 06:02 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
It's not about first/second gear. Even the manual has the same problem in the F30 328i.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...328i_update_3/

Yes, it's not the same engine, but the tip-in issue is consistent.
I don't agree with you - the 550 issue and the 535/528 issue do not appear to be the same thing. The 535/528 are apparently an engine lag (I have not driven one, I'm going by what folks have described). The 550 has to do with the transmission as I have described in previous posts.
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  #53  
Old 01-03-2013, 06:05 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
And??? What do you make of it and is your car starting off the line OK now?

I've just re-read the top of this thread and my 535 does nothing like what those 550 guys are describing. Really... nearly perfect take off with the exception of a tiny jerk which has nothing to do with 2nd >> 1st downshift issue (the jerk is before the car gets into motion and is minor, half of the ppl would never notice it).

I will repost the link to the vids in case the 550 owners need them: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=665409

Those with 550s starting off in the 1st should probably do their peers a favour and post similar stuff. "By comparison" is IMO the only way to get those cars fixed and running right!
I'm not sure what it is that you are wanting us to do. I've already posted right here in this thread that my car starts in second in "D" mode and other 550 owners have agreed. If what you want us to do is post a video I'm not going to do that as all it does is proves that I am not dreaming this up.
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  #54  
Old 01-03-2013, 06:23 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I don't agree with you - the 550 issue and the 535/528 issue do not appear to be the same thing. The 535/528 are apparently an engine lag (I have not driven one, I'm going by what folks have described). The 550 has to do with the transmission as I have described in previous posts.
My lag is 100% transmission related. You can tell that the transmission isn't engaging the clutches and then, wham, it hits home.
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  #55  
Old 01-03-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
And??? What do you make of it and is your car starting off the line OK now?

I've just re-read the top of this thread and my 535 does nothing like what those 550 guys are describing. Really... nearly perfect take off with the exception of a tiny jerk which has nothing to do with 2nd >> 1st downshift issue (the jerk is before the car gets into motion and is minor, half of the ppl would never notice it).

I will repost the link to the vids in case the 550 owners need them: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=665409

Those with 550s starting off in the 1st should probably do their peers a favour and post similar stuff. "By comparison" is IMO the only way to get those cars fixed and running right!
No, I think I was mistaken that it was starting in second. It has been starting in first. Same behavior - awful.
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  #56  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:18 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
My lag is 100% transmission related. You can tell that the transmission isn't engaging the clutches and then, wham, it hits home.
Okay, my impression has been that the 535/528 had an engine lag. Maybe it's both. My friend who just bought a 550 (same guy that had bought a CLS63 recently - long story) drove the dealers personal 535 demo said it had quite a lag from a dead stop that sounds like it was an engine lag, but I can't say that for sure.
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  #57  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:23 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I'm not sure what it is that you are wanting us to do. I've already posted right here in this thread that my car starts in second in "D" mode and other 550 owners have agreed. If what you want us to do is post a video I'm not going to do that as all it does is proves that I am not dreaming this up.
Yeah, I know a few of you have confirmed that. Have you taken in back and told the dealer about how the car cannot accelerate smoothly? I mean, seriously - has the shop foreman driven it with you and experienced the jolt at downshift when the car goes from 2nd to 1st while it's in motion already (ie, the rpms suddenly jump up unexpectedly). IMO that really seems intolerable in a $70k car (or any car for that matter, even a $20k Civic). Still, it's kind of hard to imagine w/o seeing an RPM vid, or driving in one of those, so I can only trust your written observations (which I do).

...then elevate the matter higher and higher... Until they tell you this is exactly how they intended the car to drive, at which point you give them a finger and then, honestly, I'd send my videos or whatever to Germany's headquarters to complain. Surely, something's wrong - perhaps in the very design of the powertrain/tranny shifting logic. As I said before in another thread - my neighbour has a V8 Pontiac G8 with as much power as the 550 and his takes off in 1st... (yes, his is a 6-speed auto rather than 8, but still) There are other ways to alleviate high torque than to start off in 2nd. Mine starts in 1st and VERY quickly upshifts to 2nd if it senses a complete lack of rush on my part. I can't see how a 550 could not do that.

By that logic, a Corvette should start in the 3rd and Veyron in 4th. Absolute BS. If Stealth is reading this, does your M5 start of in the first? That'd be where you should investigate perhaps. Or take an M5 for a test drive and see how it compares.


...

Last edited by yogi799; 01-03-2013 at 07:29 AM.
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  #58  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:31 AM
douggie douggie is offline
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I don't agree with you - the 550 issue and the 535/528 issue do not appear to be the same thing. The 535/528 are apparently an engine lag (I have not driven one, I'm going by what folks have described). The 550 has to do with the transmission as I have described in previous posts.
I have not tested all cars yet either, but from what I gather, the x1, x3, F30 3 series and the F10 5 series all have a general "lag" issue. Now, whether it is caused by the engine or transmission programming is not so clear cut. I'm just pointing out that if a manual car has a lag, then the chances that it is caused by the transmission starting in first/second is pretty low, unless the tester doesn't know how to drive a stick properly.

On top of that, based on needs feedback, his car does start in first, but it's still bad.
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  #59  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:35 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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So I am going to chime in here since I don't have a dog in this fight...

People seem to make different assumptions about what causes this problem. I did EXTENSIVE reading on this issue (multiple forums) before getting the my car. Some they throttle response, some say turbo lag, etc. Based on everything I have read, I too believe it is 100% a transmission problem. Whether the car starts in the wrong gear, or clutch does not engage, etc... it is definitely a transmission problem. Nothing to do with the engine response, or throttle, etc.

This was a major deciding factor for me to go with a proper gearbox. It seems 2013 do not have that problem, but I did not want to take the chance. Good luck to you guys, its gotta suck to hate driving the car.
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  #60  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:48 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Nothing to do with the engine response, or throttle, etc.
I second that and have been saying it from day 1 (even though I do not have any major problems with mine, it being a 535 which starts off in 1st).

The easiest way to confirm Miamiboy's statement is to put the car in P and step on it. The RPMs will smoothly, quickly and decisively go up. Mine is as fast in that mode as if it were not a drive-by-wire design but good old regular cable.

Best of luck to all.

PS. One more advice... I've said this before as well - in order to GET ANYWHERE you must be comparing apples to apples... so all those things Miamiboy just listed (lag, delay, jerk) etc, will get everyone so confused that there'll never be a unified front to get that **** fixed. Start with vids to document what you are experiencing. My .02
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  #61  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:23 AM
ntocamping ntocamping is offline
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Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
The E60 puts it into second when you come to a stop when in manual mode. I've heard the F10 puts it into first (you are yet another who has said this). I've driven F10's that put it into first and others that put it into second, so the behavior appears to be somewhat inconsistent, or at least I don't know what the difference was.

I currently drive an E60 and have an F10 on order. I start this way all the time with the E60 because it is the smoothest way to start (note that the E60 also has tip in, but I'm used to it).

Starting in first is painful when manual shifting because you have to shift almost immediately after getting going. It is especially painful when using paddle shifters and you are making a turn.

Does anyone know if there is a setting or a code or something to change the F10 behavior so that it always puts it into second when coming to a stop like the E60 does?

-Corey
Not my E60(550i). Threw the shifter into DS mode this morning when I came to a stop at a light and guess what, I was in S1. I have no way of knowing if it is in 1st or 2nd when in normal D mode but my guess, and confirmed by a few others is it is in 2nd. I know when I gas it in D mode it feels as though it goes off the line in 2nd but realizes I am giving it more pedal and downshifts to first. Causes a jerky ride so I just throw it in DS or hit the sport button at the light if I am feeling the need for a quick take off.
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  #62  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:38 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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How could BMW get away with **** like that is beyond me. Thank God for a 535.
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  #63  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:39 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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How could BMW get away with **** like that is beyond me. Thank God for a 535.
535i does it too. Plenty of posts.
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  #64  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:57 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Yeah, I know a few of you have confirmed that. Have you taken in back and told the dealer about how the car cannot accelerate smoothly? I mean, seriously - has the shop foreman driven it with you and experienced the jolt at downshift when the car goes from 2nd to 1st while it's in motion already (ie, the rpms suddenly jump up unexpectedly). IMO that really seems intolerable in a $70k car (or any car for that matter, even a $20k Civic). Still, it's kind of hard to imagine w/o seeing an RPM vid, or driving in one of those, so I can only trust your written observations (which I do).

...then elevate the matter higher and higher... Until they tell you this is exactly how they intended the car to drive, at which point you give them a finger and then, honestly, I'd send my videos or whatever to Germany's headquarters to complain. Surely, something's wrong - perhaps in the very design of the powertrain/tranny shifting logic. As I said before in another thread - my neighbour has a V8 Pontiac G8 with as much power as the 550 and his takes off in 1st... (yes, his is a 6-speed auto rather than 8, but still) There are other ways to alleviate high torque than to start off in 2nd. Mine starts in 1st and VERY quickly upshifts to 2nd if it senses a complete lack of rush on my part. I can't see how a 550 could not do that.

By that logic, a Corvette should start in the 3rd and Veyron in 4th. Absolute BS. If Stealth is reading this, does your M5 start of in the first? That'd be where you should investigate perhaps. Or take an M5 for a test drive and see how it compares.


...
Yes, I have spoken with the GM of the dealership who I have become friends with, had the tech drive the car. The tech said it drives fine, which simply means he did not drive it the way I do - I can make it drive fine too if I drive it very gently (I was not with him when he drove it). The GM confirms that a couple of 535 demos he has had do have a hesitation or whatever you want to call it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by douggie View Post
I have not tested all cars yet either, but from what I gather, the x1, x3, F30 3 series and the F10 5 series all have a general "lag" issue. Now, whether it is caused by the engine or transmission programming is not so clear cut. I'm just pointing out that if a manual car has a lag, then the chances that it is caused by the transmission starting in first/second is pretty low, unless the tester doesn't know how to drive a stick properly.

On top of that, based on needs feedback, his car does start in first, but it's still bad.
I have read posts that say even a manual transmission does not drive smoothly. No question thought that there are probably multiple issues, but you also have to know whether folks are talking about a 528, 535 or 550. I don't think all the issues are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
So I am going to chime in here since I don't have a dog in this fight...

People seem to make different assumptions about what causes this problem. I did EXTENSIVE reading on this issue (multiple forums) before getting the my car. Some they throttle response, some say turbo lag, etc. Based on everything I have read, I too believe it is 100% a transmission problem. Whether the car starts in the wrong gear, or clutch does not engage, etc... it is definitely a transmission problem. Nothing to do with the engine response, or throttle, etc.

This was a major deciding factor for me to go with a proper gearbox. It seems 2013 do not have that problem, but I did not want to take the chance. Good luck to you guys, its gotta suck to hate driving the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
I second that and have been saying it from day 1 (even though I do not have any major problems with mine, it being a 535 which starts off in 1st).

The easiest way to confirm Miamiboy's statement is to put the car in P and step on it. The RPMs will smoothly, quickly and decisively go up. Mine is as fast in that mode as if it were not a drive-by-wire design but good old regular cable.

Best of luck to all.

PS. One more advice... I've said this before as well - in order to GET ANYWHERE you must be comparing apples to apples... so all those things Miamiboy just listed (lag, delay, jerk) etc, will get everyone so confused that there'll never be a unified front to get that **** fixed. Start with vids to document what you are experiencing. My .02
I agree with part of what you say, but reving the engine - especially a turbo, with no load on it in park or neutral is not likely to answer the question as it may react totally differently with a load.

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Originally Posted by ntocamping View Post
Not my E60(550i). Threw the shifter into DS mode this morning when I came to a stop at a light and guess what, I was in S1. I have no way of knowing if it is in 1st or 2nd when in normal D mode but my guess, and confirmed by a few others is it is in 2nd. I know when I gas it in D mode it feels as though it goes off the line in 2nd but realizes I am giving it more pedal and downshifts to first. Causes a jerky ride so I just throw it in DS or hit the sport button at the light if I am feeling the need for a quick take off.
No question that my car starts in first gear in sport mode. That is why my 550 accelerates from a stop much more smoothly and predictably in sport mode.
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  #65  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:02 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post

I have read posts that say even a manual transmission does not drive smoothly. .
My manual (MY13) and the manual I test drove (MY12) did not have the issue.
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  #66  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:08 AM
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cordoor cordoor is offline
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Originally Posted by ntocamping View Post
Not my E60(550i). Threw the shifter into DS mode this morning when I came to a stop at a light and guess what, I was in S1. I have no way of knowing if it is in 1st or 2nd when in normal D mode but my guess, and confirmed by a few others is it is in 2nd. I know when I gas it in D mode it feels as though it goes off the line in 2nd but realizes I am giving it more pedal and downshifts to first. Causes a jerky ride so I just throw it in DS or hit the sport button at the light if I am feeling the need for a quick take off.
Interesting. I have an E60 2008 535xi. The behavior is exactly this:

1. In D or DS automatic mode, it starts in 1st, then quickly shifts to 2nd.

2. In DS manual mode, it starts in 2nd.

Sounds like the behavior is different between the E60 535 and E60 550.

Which do I prefer? Actually, there is no doubt in my mind I prefer the vehicle to start in 2nd and I therefore drive in DS manual mode quite a bit of the time so I get a very smooth launch (more time before the first shift from 2nd to 3rd). The E60 transmission isn't all that smooth though so that is why I like it. And there is so-called "tip in" on the E60, which is felt less when starting in 2nd.

This means the behavior between the F10 535 and 550 could be (but is not necessarily) different. I will definitely report on this when my F10 550 arrives in about a month (the wait is killing me).

-Corey

Last edited by cordoor; 01-03-2013 at 09:10 AM.
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  #67  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:10 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
Yes, I have spoken with the GM of the dealership who I have become friends with, had the tech drive the car. The tech said it drives fine, which simply means he did not drive it the way I do - I can make it drive fine too if I drive it very gently (I was not with him when he drove it).
Here is the problem and you know it. You must show them that it's complete BS and you are not accepting a car that acts this way... Demand to drive with them in the car. Apply 2/3 of the throttle at every light and prove them wrong (that's what I did with my comfort access locks problem when they kept the car for the whole day only to call me and tell me I was seeing things, you should have seen their faces when I demanded to try a new 535 which did not have my problem!).

Prove all of them wrong, the forman, the mangers, the whole nine yards. Elevate the issue higher if need be. In the meantime, enjoy some nice loaners! If all else fails, seriously, document it well, record vids (and even supply 535 vids like mine) and send it to Germany.

Sounds exotic, I know, but that's what I'd do if my $70k car lurched like this from the lights and would be easily beat by a 535 in a drag race in D..... (why have the extra power if the D mode essentially shuts it down by launching in 2nd gear?). And I personally do not consider the DS a viable alternative (gear holding sucks), you have a right to drive the car in D and use 2/3 throttle to take off. The car must behave properly under those circumstances (hmmm. like 99% of cars out there!). Don't let them get away with that.
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  #68  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:17 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
My manual (MY13) and the manual I test drove (MY12) did not have the issue.
Thanks for that info.

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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Here is the problem and you know it. You must show them that it's complete BS and you are not accepting a car that acts this way... Demand to drive with them in the car. Apply 2/3 of the throttle at every light and prove them wrong (that's what I did with my comfort access locks problem when they kept the car for the whole day only to call me and tell me I was seeing things, you should have seen their faces when I demanded to try a new 535 which did not have my problem!).

Prove all of them wrong, the forman, the mangers, the whole nine yards. Elevate the issue higher if need be. In the meantime, enjoy some nice loaners! If all else fails, seriously, document it well, record vids (and even supply 535 vids like mine) and send it to Germany.

Sounds exotic, I know, but that's what I'd do if my $70k car lurched like this from the lights and would be easily beat by a 535 in a drag race in D..... (why have the extra power if the D mode essentially shuts it down by launching in 2nd gear?). And I personally do not consider the DS a viable alternative (gear holding sucks), you have a right to drive the car in D and use 2/3 throttle to take off. The car must behave properly under those circumstances (hmmm. like 99% of cars out there!). Don't let them get away with that.
I should point out that the zone rep for BMW was sitting with the GM of the dealer when I discussed it with them. He got on the phone and was told by the factory that there is no known problem and no fix for it on the 550. Yes, I could make myself crazy by going back and forth and having them give me loaners. But I simply don't have the patience for it. And while the problem is annoying, its not so bad I want to make myself miserable going through what you suggest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very stubborn and very picky and I fight many battles with service providers and such. But I have learned that I seldom win and the folks on the other hand lose less sleep over these issues than I do, so I have tried to limit my fighting to issues that are of a more serious nature.

BTW, to your point over being beat by a 535. The car accelerates fine under very light throttle or very hard throttle. If I floor it I have zero problems with and hesitation or jerkiness. I only have a problem with wheelspin (or traction control) if I want to blow someone away. It's moderately hard acceleration that trips it up.
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Last edited by jjsC6; 01-03-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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  #69  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:47 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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It's moderately hard acceleration that trips it up.
Which is unfortunately the amount of throttle most of us use most frequently, probably...

I completely hear you and can 100% visualize your car's behavior (you've explained it well). True, your battle may be uphill since it sounds like most 550s exhibit this. My comfort access locks problem was easier to fight for as I had a proof in the showroom (and from many folks in this forum).

Best of luck either way. I am still curious about the M5 though. PM Stealth.Pilot. Maybe you'll have some grounds for a fight.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:38 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Which is unfortunately the amount of throttle most of us use most frequently, probably...

I completely hear you and can 100% visualize your car's behavior (you've explained it well). True, your battle may be uphill since it sounds like most 550s exhibit this. My comfort access locks problem was easier to fight for as I had a proof in the showroom (and from many folks in this forum).

Best of luck either way. I am still curious about the M5 though. PM Stealth.Pilot. Maybe you'll have some grounds for a fight.
Thank you - and your first sentence is exactly right.

My best case would be if my friends new 2013 does not exhibit the same issues. Then I would have something concrete to go back to the dealer with and I know the GM will do anything within his bounds to help.
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  #71  
Old 01-03-2013, 12:51 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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I have opened a case with BMWNA about this. They asked me to have my local dealer look into it. I am on the process of scheduling an appointment.

I can tell you now what is going to happen: will drive the car with the Shop Foreman. Will experience the issue. The will upload latest software and reset adapters. At which point, car will drive well. I'll get it back and a month later it will be back to the drawing board. This is what has happened the last 2-3 times.

Only this time if it happens again, I will demand a buy back. I'm tired of this ****.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:09 PM
wander621 wander621 is offline
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Just to add my two cents to this discussion, I had a 2011 535xi which had this problem and it really irritated me and I complained multiple times but never got it fixed. My wife also drove a 2011 x3 which had the same problem but not as frequent We just got new 2013's and the problem is totally gone in both cars. I have some fears it will come back after the cars are more broken in but for now, I am happy as can be.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:18 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I have opened a case with BMWNA about this. They asked me to have my local dealer look into it. I am on the process of scheduling an appointment.

I can tell you now what is going to happen: will drive the car with the Shop Foreman. Will experience the issue. The will upload latest software and reset adapters. At which point, car will drive well. I'll get it back and a month later it will be back to the drawing board. This is what has happened the last 2-3 times.

Only this time if it happens again, I will demand a buy back. I'm tired of this ****.
Exactly! Return the car or call it a lemon if three tries have resulted in no lasting improvement! You're lucky that a software reset brings it back to a normal state, albeit temporarily - you have an easy point of reference to keep the fight on. jjs is in a slightly worse situation with nothing else to refer to.

Although, I am still confused needs... if you've established that your car starts off in the 1st, what exactly is happening? Not trying to hijack the thread (ok, I am, sorry) but as opposed to jjs's description, I cannot for the life of me visualize your troubles (on take-off). Maybe it's irrelevant as you're onto winning this war, methinks... Too bad it's taking so long though. I enjoy my car each time I get inside it.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:21 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Shoot a vid, needs. For this or a new thread. Help others get that resolved too.... In fact you should shoot one right after a reset and then when it gets worse.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:59 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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It's not noticeable in a video, unfortunately. It feels like poor clutch engagement. Best way to describe it is like a new driver learning to drive a manual transmission. A very abrupt application of power.
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2011 535i
Sophisto Grau / Oyster - Black Nappa, Anthracite Wood Gone but not forgotten.

Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the cars are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians

Last edited by Needsdecaf; 01-03-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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