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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #76  
Old 01-03-2013, 02:20 PM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
A very abrupt application of power.
I remember those days...
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  #77  
Old 01-03-2013, 04:13 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
It's not noticeable in a video, unfortunately. It feels like poor clutch engagement. Best way to describe it is like a new driver learning to drive a manual transmission. A very abrupt application of power.
That's not a bad description of what I feel when I don't get the "launch" right.
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  #78  
Old 01-03-2013, 04:36 PM
douggie douggie is offline
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Originally Posted by wander621 View Post
Just to add my two cents to this discussion, I had a 2011 535xi which had this problem and it really irritated me and I complained multiple times but never got it fixed. My wife also drove a 2011 x3 which had the same problem but not as frequent We just got new 2013's and the problem is totally gone in both cars. I have some fears it will come back after the cars are more broken in but for now, I am happy as can be.
Wow. It really sounds like trading in for a 2013 is the best solution.

jjsC6, please try and drive your friend's 2013 and see if it has the same problem.

Last edited by douggie; 01-03-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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  #79  
Old 01-03-2013, 06:24 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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I have a 2013 535 and can report that (at least on my car) the tip in sucks. Feels as though nothing happens during the first second or so after applying the accelerator. Makes no difference if the car is in comfort, sport or sport+.

I believe it is a software (drive by wire) issue and hopefully someone like Dinan comes out with a tune that adds HP and also makes the accelerator pedal response more linear.
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  #80  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:08 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
Wow. It really sounds like trading in for a 2013 is the best solution.

jjsC6, please try and drive your friend's 2013 and see if it has the same problem.
I definitely will drive his car, but it's not unusual for me to not see him for a few weeks. I'll make an effort soon though.
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  #81  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:44 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rico View Post
I have a 2013 535 and can report that (at least on my car) the tip in sucks. Feels as though nothing happens during the first second or so after applying the accelerator. Makes no difference if the car is in comfort, sport or sport+.

I believe it is a software (drive by wire) issue and hopefully someone like Dinan comes out with a tune that adds HP and also makes the accelerator pedal response more linear.
Here is an example where we are starting to compare apples to oranges. Rico is most likely talking about what I have: a slight throttle delay and a bit of a jerk at take off (tranny engaging too late and then too abruptly in the 1st gear). I've since gotten used to this and it hardly bothers me, but my symptoms were nearly identical. ABout .5-.75 s delay before the car moves off the line.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=571958

I even came up with a simple TEST to verify that delay: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...60#post6362060

This has nothing to do with jjs' (OP's) problem, BTW.
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  #82  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:15 PM
Lanman2012 Lanman2012 is offline
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I've been experiencing exactly the same problem and I think the analogy to someone learning to drive a car with a manual transmission it right on. Slow... slow... bang! I originally thought it was turbo lag but now I think it's probably a combination of the transmission and turbo lag.
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  #83  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:28 PM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Here is an example where we are starting to compare apples to oranges. Rico is most likely talking about what I have: a slight throttle delay and a bit of a jerk at take off (tranny engaging too late and then too abruptly in the 1st gear). I've since gotten used to this and it hardly bothers me, but my symptoms were nearly identical. ABout .5-.75 s delay before the car moves off the line.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=571958

I even came up with a simple TEST to verify that delay: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...60#post6362060

This has nothing to do with jjs' (OP's) problem, BTW.
See and I think it's the same thing. A delay in engaging.
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  #84  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:35 PM
douggie douggie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico View Post
I have a 2013 535 and can report that (at least on my car) the tip in sucks. Feels as though nothing happens during the first second or so after applying the accelerator. Makes no difference if the car is in comfort, sport or sport+.

I believe it is a software (drive by wire) issue and hopefully someone like Dinan comes out with a tune that adds HP and also makes the accelerator pedal response more linear.
So even the 2013 have issues? U sure that it is not better in sport or sport+ (have you changed the sports mode to "chassis" only)? Try DS mode just to make sure.

Last edited by douggie; 01-03-2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  #85  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:02 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Yes, we are sure, but that is a minor problem. What needs and jjs are experiencing is completely different. Makes the car freak out at take off (I would not tolerate it personally, period). We simply get a tiny jerk right when the car starts moving. Hardly a show-stopper. It'd be nice to do away with it, but it does not affect a very smooth and fun way the car can be driven in, overall. And it shows up only if you are a more aggressive driver. I can start super smoothly if I want to (in the 1st gear). As I said, I hardly notice that any more and have full control of acceleration without terrible things happening as described by some other festers, most notably the OP. I would buy another 535 in a heartbeat (well, I really want an M5 :-) )
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  #86  
Old 01-04-2013, 06:02 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
See and I think it's the same thing. A delay in engaging.
The more I read, the more I want to clarify what mine is (and isn't) doing. Mine is not a delay to get rolling. My car gets rolling without hesitation. My jerkiness comes as I get rolling and give it too much gas. It's almost like there is a point about half way down with the accelerator that it goes all wonky. Light throttle it's fine, hard throttle its fine. Keep in mind that this also happens in the first few seconds of pulling away from a dead stop.

If you go back to my original post, this is why it seems like it's a second gear, then wants to drop to first gear issue. If you think about it, accelerating lightly where it does not need to downshift its fine. If you accelerate hard it goes to first right away and accelerates fine. But if you accelerate easy and progressively give it more gas it starts in second they says "whoa, we need to hammer it down to first because this guy wants more acceleration than we programmed the "D" mode for".
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  #87  
Old 01-04-2013, 09:47 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Yes, we get it. Shoot a vid, this will easily act as a proof that RPMs rapidly jump up (downshift) if you press it more than half-throttle -- something that SHOULD NOT be occurring! In any normal car, the car upshifts, NOT downshifts as people take off from the lights! Shoot a vid with 1/3 throttle and then with 2/3 throttle from 0-50 mph in D and we will know for sure.
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  #88  
Old 01-04-2013, 12:55 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
So even the 2013 have issues? U sure that it is not better in sport or sport+ (have you changed the sports mode to "chassis" only)? Try DS mode just to make sure.
Yes. I am sure there is no difference in sport or sport+ modes. The first 1/2" or so of throttle travel during a full stop is lazy. Again this is on a 2013 535 (I"ll have to check the build date). By way of comparison, this doesn't happen on my E46 nor the wife's Odyssey. Yogi799 summarized exactly what I experience in a different post back in Oct 2011.
OK. Stoplights. I press the gas pedal - it takes about .75 seconds for the car to move (the PROOF of that is guys in the adjacent lanes are starting to move before I can - I've pressed it but still waiting... they started moving exactly when I pressed my pedal). If I press lightly, the RPM will slowly increase and takeoff will be smooth (yet still delayed). If I press it half way for faster acceleration, still .75s wait, then the car sort of jerks into higher rpm (2k or so) and zooms off. I NEVER get a super smooth takeoff UNLESS I drive like a retired person. Under moderate acceleration, there is usually the sudden RPM jump and a "kick" that I am not intending on doing.
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  #89  
Old 01-04-2013, 02:26 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Unfortunately this is probably "as designed", Rico. Just don't know why. I've gotten completely used to it. Does not bother me anymore (1.5 yrs later).

The OP's 550 problem is IMO much more of an issue. A car starting in the 2nd gear (hey, it only has 100 hp more than we do, so come on...) is just nonsense. If that's intentional design, then gimme a break BMW... I've spoken to Stealth Pilot - his M5 starts in 1st in D - the way it should be!

At least we can still win drag races . Try that on a 550 in D which loses valuable time downshifting from 2nd to 1st when you really need the power NOW.



..

Last edited by yogi799; 01-04-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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  #90  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:00 PM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico View Post
Yes. I am sure there is no difference in sport or sport+ modes. The first 1/2" or so of throttle travel during a full stop is lazy. Again this is on a 2013 535 (I"ll have to check the build date). By way of comparison, this doesn't happen on my E46 nor the wife's Odyssey. Yogi799 summarized exactly what I experience in a different post back in Oct 2011.
OK. Stoplights. I press the gas pedal - it takes about .75 seconds for the car to move (the PROOF of that is guys in the adjacent lanes are starting to move before I can - I've pressed it but still waiting... they started moving exactly when I pressed my pedal). If I press lightly, the RPM will slowly increase and takeoff will be smooth (yet still delayed). If I press it half way for faster acceleration, still .75s wait, then the car sort of jerks into higher rpm (2k or so) and zooms off. I NEVER get a super smooth takeoff UNLESS I drive like a retired person. Under moderate acceleration, there is usually the sudden RPM jump and a "kick" that I am not intending on doing.
I dont have a sport setting, only the Sport+, do you have adaptive drive control? I thought 4 modes ECO/Comfort/Sport/Sport+ was associated with ADC
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  #91  
Old 01-04-2013, 03:33 PM
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  #92  
Old 01-07-2013, 03:51 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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UPDATE- I drove my friends new 2013 550 today. The jury is out. It seemed to be somewhat smoother pulling away from a stop than my car, but still not as smooth as it should have been. BTW, he has driven my car as well and he agrees with my assessment.

One thing that was different. If I'm sitting still in "D" mode and move the shifter to "S", you can feel it shift to first gear before it even starts moving. I tried it several times in his car and I could not feel it shift like mine does. Not sure what that means - I still think they start in second gear if you are in "D" mode, but it's really hard to put your finger on what is going on that makes it accelerate away from a stop at part throttle so poorly.
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  #93  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:33 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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1. If you are right that his was not shifting to 1st when level was pushed from D to S back and forth, then that'd mean that BMW realized their dumb mistake and fixed it to always start in 1st in D.
2. How can you not be sure what is happening in D in his? What did the rpms do? Downshfting to 1st vs not should be quite freakin' obvious - it should simply pull away nicely under any throttle. As I've said many times... hope you captured a vid while testing it out. At least we could see and try to advise.
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  #94  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:50 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
1. If you are right that his was not shifting to 1st when level was pushed from D to S back and forth, then that'd mean that BMW realized their dumb mistake and fixed it to always start in 1st in D.
2. How can you not be sure what is happening in D in his? What did the rpms do? Downshfting to 1st vs not should be quite freakin' obvious - it should simply pull away nicely under any throttle. As I've said many times... hope you captured a vid while testing it out. At least we could see and try to advise.
I think because the gear spacing of the eight speed is so close that it's just not that obvious how it is shifting. Also, I have to ask you if you know how an automatic with a torque converter works - not trying to sound nasty by asking you - it's a serious question. If not, study how a torque converter works especially in regards to "stall speed".

A torque converter actually allows the rpms to come up without a proportionate rate of acceleration - especially from a dead stop. This makes it possible to mask what is going on. I'm not pointing to that as the issue, just saying it can make it difficult at that speed to tell what the transmission is actually doing.
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  #95  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:25 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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I totally know that, but again:

1. you could easily learn the respective REAL (not slipping) rpm in each gear by using the manual mode >> then perform this test while knowing exactly what to expect.
2. i don't see any torque converter slippage in mine in any of the gears - I presume this has to do with a locking TC which does not allow much of that nonsense. there is simply enough power to make the engine work without "loosening up" the clutch. same in the Manual mode. even my Pontiac G8 neighbor was shocked... He put my 535 in the 8th at 40mph and gunned it. to his surprise, the TC was completely locked and rpms did not budge. The engine was expected to do all the work with no help from the tranny. The rpm was really low as you can imagine (1500 or so)
3. i often come out of a curve in 3rd instead of 2nd and when I gun it, there is a brief hesitation and then BANG: a sudden and rough downshift to 2nd - trust me, this is so obvious, it's rather easy to tell. The RPMs go way up and the car guns forward with immense power (a very much unintended effect as I was not asking for THAT much)

I wish I could take a look at your ride (and Needs' 535). I am about to get a loaner and I've asked for a 550 but this will not happen, as I'm told.


..

Last edited by yogi799; 01-08-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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  #96  
Old 01-08-2013, 01:29 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
I totally know that, but again:

1. you could easily learn the respective REAL (not slipping) rpm in each gear by using the manual mode >> then perform this test while knowing exactly what to expect.
2. i don't see any torque converter slippage in mine in any of the gears - I presume this has to do with a locking TC which does not allow much of that nonsense. there is simply enough power to make the engine work without "loosening up" the clutch. same in the Manual mode. even my Pontiac G8 neighbor was shocked... He put my 535 in the 8th at 40mph and gunned it. to his surprise, the TC was completely locked and rpms did not budge. The engine was expected to do all the work with no help from the tranny. The rpm was really low as you can imagine (1500 or so)
3. i often come out of a curve in 3rd instead of 2nd and when I gun it, there is a brief hesitation and then BANG: a sudden and rough downshift to 2nd - trust me, this is so obvious, it's rather easy to tell. The RPMs go way up and the car guns forward with immense power (a very much unintended effect as I was not asking for THAT much)

I wish I could take a look at your ride (and Needs' 535). I am about to get a loaner and I've asked for a 550 but this will not happen, as I'm told.


..
The way most current automatics work is they lock up in the higher gears - which could include second btw, I don't claim to be up to date on them. But pulling away from a dead stop is when they are generally not locked. If they were, they would not even need a torque converter.

I'm not arguing your points btw, you make a lot of good points. I watched the tach a couple of times this morning and as I said before, it's hard for me to discern what is really happening. I did not see anything in the way the tach rose or fell that indicated what was going on.

BTW, just for reference, I'm quite knowledgeable and attuned to my vehicles inner workings. 30 years ago I road raced motorcycles and finished in the top three in the country in three different classes of amateur racing, I am in the top ten fastest stock C6's Corvettes in the country in the quarter mile, and I have done quite well on the rare occasions I have done some autocrossing. I also took a couple of years of auto mechanics in high school, and when I roadraced I rebuilt my own motorcycle engine between seasons.

While that doesn't make me qualified to fully understand the machinations of today's vehicles, It does make me feel good to have what seems like a legitimate reason to gloat about the one thing in life that I was pretty good at

Thanks for your thoughts and I'll try to keep an eye on what's going on with my car.
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Last edited by jjsC6; 01-08-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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  #97  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:45 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Well, all the best getting your car to the shape you want to. Hope it's possible.

Mine BTW went in for service for something unrelated (will start a thread on it soon), only to discover there is a new software update out and I am getting it as we speak. Hope they've not screwed anything up as I was really happy with how things were.

Keeping my fingers crossed and driving a 2013 X3 28i as a loaner. Was surprised to learn it too was a four banger. Wish I had the 35i with the proper 3.0 turbo. Four bangers are really popular as loaners at my dealership. Not good.
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